Dual opposed 12" Infinity Reference sealed subwoofer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 51 Old 10-02-2012, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, hope you can help to suggest improvements / changes to my plan. Looking to start my first DIY build on a fairly tight budget, and have (after reading and reading everything I can find) come up with this plan. Primary focus is music, but it’s going to be used for HT too. Big room with high (9ft) ceilings, open plan family room / kitchen / great room, probably around 1000 sq ft total.

Amp: Crown XLS 1000
Drivers: Dual opposed Infinity Reference 1262W 12”
Cab: Sealed, 3 ft^3

Any thoughts / problems or improvements with this set-up? I plan on mounting the Crown behind my TV and running the cables semi-hidden. It'll be used primarily for music, and the sub input will be from a Denon 1712 AVR.

Thanks!

Andrew
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post #2 of 51 Old 10-02-2012, 04:11 PM
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hi andrew,

those subs in that size enclosure will have a fairly steep rolloff, so 20hz is down about 15db from 80hz.

such a setup would typically include having some sort of equalization applied to flatten the response.

subwoofers also form a system with the room and create peaks and nulls. one solution is to use more sources, so you might get better results by making two subs so that you can move them around the room in order to try to smooth things out.

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post #3 of 51 Old 10-02-2012, 05:27 PM
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Would a ported enclosure be an option? You may get a little more impact at lower frequencies by going ported. Just a thought. I've got four of these drivers in sealed enclosures and they have good impact but I think ported would have been better for my current situation. But, that said, my subs are moving down to a dedicated room eventually. Once that happens I think I'll have more than enough juice for my room. Will your subs stay put or do you have any future plans that we need to consider?
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post #4 of 51 Old 10-03-2012, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks both. I'm definitely open to design changes, although I like the external amp to give the flexibility to hook up a 2nd somewhere down the road. Right now, this is compromise-driven, so I stuck at a set maximum dimension (~24" cube max), hence the idea of sealed with lots of power. Also, and with the old quote about a true compromise being where neither party is completely happy, I've got very little flexibility on positioning. It has, at least, a wall and a corner, and the listening position has a wall behind it, so hoping not to find myself in a null. My old 8" Sony sub did a fairly good job in here, so I hope the position isn't too bad.

With all that said, I'm starting to model in WinISD so I'll push a few different ideas through there and report back. I've been going back and forth to a single driver (e.g. 12" Titanic) or a single 15" Dayton HF.
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post #5 of 51 Old 10-03-2012, 08:55 AM
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With a 1000sq/ft room you'll need to move a huge amount of air. If you simply can't do multiples I would push for the 15 incher. More displacement will yield a greater impact for your situation. Well, I guess that holds true for any situation...

Have you modeled the 15 in an enclosure of the size you're going for? What's it look like with the amount of power you plan to use?
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post #6 of 51 Old 10-03-2012, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks – yes, I modeled it last night briefly, will spend more time with it tonight when I’m home from work.. still a huge rolloff below ~30hz. Possibly I’m modeling something incorrectly, because the Crown should push a fair amount of power... I’ll check again tonight and post a few charts.
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post #7 of 51 Old 10-04-2012, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I’ve modeled different drivers and I’m spinning circles. I’m hoping someone could give a little advice to help narrow down my ‘hardware’ choices. My max outer dimensions are 24” high, 18” deep and 24” wide (I could go up to 32” wide it I really needed to, but that will reduce the WAF significantly….). I’d like to use an external amp so I can add another sub down the road and use the same amplifier. I’d like to use the Crown XLS1000 as it seems to offer the best bang for the buck.

I’d like to spend < $200 on the driver if possible, with a focus on good musicality. Would appreciate any more input from anyone on box dimensions, driver etc. Is the dual infinity a bad idea in this box?
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post #8 of 51 Old 10-05-2012, 05:56 AM
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Find a single high excursion driver that works in the box volume you have to work with. Don't try to cram 2 in there. You have about 4.5 cu ft. Perfect for 1 ported 12, or 1 sealed 15. Model those and see which can produce the most content at 25-30 Hz.

If you go with the 32" width you have about 6 cu ft. You could do a ported 15 in that. Hmmm...time to buy your wife something nice.
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post #9 of 51 Old 10-05-2012, 05:57 AM
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...and by most content I mean excursion limited.
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post #10 of 51 Old 10-30-2012, 04:21 PM
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Hey apnea, it's been a couple weeks now. Did you go for the dual 1262w? I'm thinking of going with one in a 1.2 sealed cab. Here's what I get in 1.2ft3 sealed with 1 1262w -
Get an f3 of about 44Hz, -6db @ 34.5Hz, -12db @ 23Hz.. If I push 500 watts through it, I don't exceed xmax and get the following SPL -
114.8db max between 92.3 and 108Hz
114.6db @ 80Hz
114.2 @ 70Hz
113.5 @ 60Hz
112.1 @ 50Hz
109.6 @ 40Hz
105.8 @ 30Hz
99.4 @ 20Hz
94.5 @ 15Hz
87.6 @ 10Hz

If I model 2 in a 3ft3 sealed, with 500w input, x-max is exceeded at about 20Hz. You would def need a hi pass filter of some sort, or less power. But I get an f3 of 42.9Hz with minimal dampening and the following -
-6db @ 33Hz
-12db @ about 22Hz

SPL with 500w input -
Max of 114.6db from about 91Hz to 113Hz
114.4 @ 80Hz
114 @ 70Hz
113.3 @ 60Hz
112.1 @ 50Hz
110 @ 40Hz
106.5 @ 30Hz
100.4 @ 20Hz
95.6 @ 15Hz
88.9 @ 10Hz

The 15" Dayton Titanic in a 2.75ft3 will provide an f3 of about 39Hz. In 3ft3, F3 should be a little lower. Not sure how cone excursion looks at high power, since I haven't modeled it.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-420
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post #11 of 51 Old 10-31-2012, 09:35 PM
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Yeah, that Dayton won't exceed xmax with 800rms input in a 2.75ft3 sealed. Not even close, Still has about 5mm of travel before xmax is reached. I'm showing it would take 1600w to reach xmax. 20HZ comes in at about 104.5db. F3 shows 40.64Hz, -6db is about 31Hz and -12db is about 21 / 22Hz.

I was bored.
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post #12 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info and reply!

I'm still thinking of the dual 1262W, largely a cost based decision, but also I like the flexibility of tearing down the cabs and building two if I decided that was a good route. Right now, WAF is my primary factor....

It's been a while since my last EE class, so a question. I have a Crown XLS 1000 amp, which I'll drive with my Denon into something (miniDSP or ART) to send a 1.4V pro-level signal. The 1262W is DVC, 4ohm per voice coil. If I wire the two voice coils per sub in series, then both speakers in parallel, it'll be a 4 ohm load, correct? I plan on wiring that way, then bridging the Crown to present a 4 ohm load to the amp, which on paper nets 1100W, or 550 per driver.

Does it make sense to wire this way? I'll add a hipass to prevent over-excursion (and I plan on building sealed), but I think this is the easiest way to present a 4ohm load to the amp without two sets of wires.

The amp looks great - I plugged in my iPod via an RCA and hooked them up to a pair of Polk Monitor 70s that I have - I know the iPod doesn't give 1.4V, but even with the gain at ~40% the Polks were pretty loud. I plan on mounting the amp behind a 60" wall-mounted plasma.

Apnea
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post #13 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 05:15 PM
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"If I wire the two voice coils per sub in series, then both speakers in parallel, it'll be a 4 ohm load, correct?"

yes.

"Does it make sense to wire this way?"

yes.

"I'll add a hipass to prevent over-excursion (and I plan on building sealed)..."

in a smallish sealed enclosure, you shouldn't need a high pass filter.

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post #14 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Such a great forum. Thanks for the quick reply; I'll order up a pair of the Infinities and model a decent sealed enclosure - I'll post some results / pics. Cheers!
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post #15 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 06:08 PM
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Don't really understand the growing trend of one big box with two drivers.....two seperate enclosures introduce a much smoother in room response.
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post #16 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Space - I don't have room for two boxes, so this is a compromise. As for dual, well it also gives me an opportunity to build a 2nd if I move and get more room for the A/V part of a busy household smile.gif
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post #17 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Don't really understand the growing trend of one big box with two drivers.....two seperate enclosures introduce a much smoother in room response.

I decided to do both and I've been really happy with the results so far. I went with two enclosures and two drivers in each. I'm glad to see that you decided to go with the 1262's. These things are a steal performance per dollar wise. You're going to freak when you fire em up and crank it for the first time. I've had my setup running for a while now and my wife still looks over to me and says "this is ridiculous". They still put a huge smile on my face.
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post #18 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jayHRC51 View Post

I decided to do both and I've been really happy with the results so far. I went with two enclosures and two drivers in each. I'm glad to see that you decided to go with the 1262's. These things are a steal performance per dollar wise. You're going to freak when you fire em up and crank it for the first time. I've had my setup running for a while now and my wife still looks over to me and says "this is ridiculous". They still put a huge smile on my face.

That's great news - I'm going to get cutting once the drivers arrive, and I'll let you know how my wife reacts... So, no high-pass filter, interesting - I've heard conflicting thoughts on them for small sealed. I figure that the drivers are $60 each, if I blow one, it's not going to hurt too badly.
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post #19 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 05:56 AM
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I have no high pass on my setup. I'm not too concerned because I never listen at reference levels. I've watched a few movies at -15, but that's as close to reference as I think I've ever gone. And like you said, I could care less if I fry a $60 driver or two.
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post #20 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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So in a complete change of heart, I think I'll build a pair of boxes. I made some mock-ups and it is aesthetically more pleasing, plus likely will sound better to boot. Question: my Crown amp is rated 550W@2ohms; I can wire the DVC 1262W to present 2 ohms to each channel, or I can get the 1260W which is SVC and 4 ohms. I'd rather 2 ohms stereo - any problems with that, given I'll be running two channels at 2 ohms, not bridged 4 ohms? I suspect the amp internally still sees 2 ohm per channel even in 4 ohm bridged mode, so I think it nets out the same.

Thanks for the encouragement to build a pair - form ever follows function.
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post #21 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 06:37 PM
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With two drivers per channel you will be able to present a 2ohm stereo load with either sub choice. Crutchfield has sub wiring guides, look how to do the wiring.

I'm running a crown XLS1500 in 2ohm stereo. It's been fine; I never even hear the fans kick on...

Good for you, glad to hear you decided to use four drivers and two cabinets! You're not going to believe the output. Plus adding those extra drivers should give you a few additional db and a little more extension. And who doesn't like that!?
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post #22 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Don't really understand the growing trend of one big box with two drivers.....two seperate enclosures introduce a much smoother in room response.

Dual opposed fits into a 19.5 W/H/L inch box. Lot of driver area for a smallish enclosure. Cancellation of cabinet vibrations. Two dual opposed are better biggrin.gif You can do these for ~$150/box

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post #23 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apnea View Post

So in a complete change of heart, I think I'll build a pair of boxes. I made some mock-ups and it is aesthetically more pleasing, plus likely will sound better to boot. Question: my Crown amp is rated 550W@2ohms; I can wire the DVC 1262W to present 2 ohms to each channel, or I can get the 1260W which is SVC and 4 ohms. I'd rather 2 ohms stereo - any problems with that, given I'll be running two channels at 2 ohms, not bridged 4 ohms? I suspect the amp internally still sees 2 ohm per channel even in 4 ohm bridged mode, so I think it nets out the same.
Thanks for the encouragement to build a pair - form ever follows function.

If you need a two ohm load you have to use the 1260W. They are SVC 4 Ohm and you will wire them in parallel.

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post #24 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual opposed fits into a 19.5 W/H/L inch box. Lot of driver area for a smallish enclosure. Cancellation of cabinet vibrations. Two dual opposed are better biggrin.gif You can do these for ~$150/box

Thanks - my plan was a little unclear. I'm going to keep 2 drivers, but split the cabs into two separate boxes. So they'll be single driver cabs, but two separate enclosures. Primarily aesthetics, but I'm keen to smooth out the in-room response, especially as my positioning options are exceeding limited.

19.5" L/W/D would net out about 4 ft^3 - would you recommend then somewhere around 2 cubes for a single driver? That would be ideal. In the longer term, I'll probably shift these to the basement and build something meatier, but this seems like a great inexpensive way to dip my toes in DIY. Each box should end up costing ~$90 to $100, which is just amazing. I've got access to a great wood shop, so tool costs are out of the equation at least.
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post #25 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apnea View Post

Thanks - my plan was a little unclear. I'm going to keep 2 drivers, but split the cabs into two separate boxes. So they'll be single driver cabs, but two separate enclosures. Primarily aesthetics, but I'm keen to smooth out the in-room response, especially as my positioning options are exceeding limited.
19.5" L/W/D would net out about 4 ft^3 - would you recommend then somewhere around 2 cubes for a single driver? That would be ideal. In the longer term, I'll probably shift these to the basement and build something meatier, but this seems like a great inexpensive way to dip my toes in DIY. Each box should end up costing ~$90 to $100, which is just amazing. I've got access to a great wood shop, so tool costs are out of the equation at least.

Oh, gotcha, I thought you meant that you were going to switch gears and add two additional drivers. I just realized that I misinterpreted your description. Sorry about that.

In this scenario I don't think you can achieve a 2ohm stereo load. You would need a single sub with dual 4ohm voice coils in order to present a 2ohm load at each channel. I could be wrong, but I don't think Infinity makes a 126x driver with dual 4ohm coils. I also wanted to run 2ohm stereo and that was the main reason I went with four subs. More power, more subs, more air moving which all leads to greater impact while still not spending a ton of money.
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post #26 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jayHRC51 View Post

Oh, gotcha, I thought you meant that you were going to switch gears and add two additional drivers. I just realized that I misinterpreted your description. Sorry about that.
In this scenario I don't think you can achieve a 2ohm stereo load. You would need a single sub with dual 4ohm voice coils in order to present a 2ohm load at each channel. I could be wrong, but I don't think Infinity makes a 126x driver with dual 4ohm coils. I also wanted to run 2ohm stereo and that was the main reason I went with four subs. More power, more subs, more air moving which all leads to greater impact while still not spending a ton of money.

No problem, thanks for the reply.

I took a look and I _think_ I can load them 2 ohms per channel - have a look:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qvxDk7TNTTL/p_1081262W/Infinity-1262w.html?tab=features_and_specs#details-tab
Quote:
Dual 4-ohm Voice Coils: This woofer features dual 4-ohm voice coils that offer flexibility in wiring. When the voice coils are wired in parallel with each other, the woofer presents a 2-ohm mono load

So I think that means I can get 2 ohms per woofer, so with 2 cabs I'll present 2x2ohms, one per channel of my Crown amp. I sure hope that's right because the order has already shipped!
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post #27 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by apnea View Post

No problem, thanks for the reply.
I took a look and I _think_ I can load them 2 ohms per channel - have a look:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-qvxDk7TNTTL/p_1081262W/Infinity-1262w.html?tab=features_and_specs#details-tab
So I think that means I can get 2 ohms per woofer, so with 2 cabs I'll present 2x2ohms, one per channel of my Crown amp. I sure hope that's right because the order has already shipped!

You are correct. For some reason I was thinking that the 1262 had dual 2ohm coils. I guess I should have looked before answering.
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post #28 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Great - I can breathe again wink.gif
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post #29 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Some output from winISD, plotting a single driver in 1.25 cubes (internal) with 500W (over the maximum specs given by Infinity, but we'll see about that.....)

I had to guess at some of the T/S specs, and I couldn't find a file for winISD - I hope I guessed right


Max SPL - not stellar, but I'm in this for the experience, so for < $100 a cab, I'm happy


Over-excursion of around 3mm - I'm not too concerned, should I be? I could wire the 2 voice coils in series to present 350W per driver, but I don't like leaving headroom on the table
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post #30 of 51 Old 11-09-2012, 09:41 AM
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Could be wrong, but that seems hard to beat for the money.
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