7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 540 Old 02-24-2013, 12:26 PM
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Are you running the other 4 subs yet?
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post #512 of 540 Old 02-25-2013, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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No , not yet. I am waiting for the sound proof doors to be installed.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #513 of 540 Old 02-25-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

No , not yet. I am waiting for the sound proof doors to be installed.

I think you meant sound "resistant."

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post #514 of 540 Old 02-25-2013, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, yes, I do do mean that! biggrin.gif

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #515 of 540 Old 03-03-2013, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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SO, I decided to go with 1 more driver to make it 8 drivers. The back IB will be a manifold type to reduce vibrations. I have cleaned out the back room and I am ready to start the build.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #516 of 540 Old 03-03-2013, 06:05 PM
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Wauw
I read the first page,but now you have 7 of them and upgrading to 8........
Impressive sound system ,and the spl en waterfall from REW are very good.

I,am a new member,but i think i like this forum,massive DIY sub,s over here smile.gif
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post #517 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 05:19 AM
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Dave - great thread. One question - since the RE Audio XXX 18" is primarily designed for a sealed or ported enclosure, how did you determine the cubic volume you needed per driver for using these in an IB configuration? In other words, what VAS did you use? From what I have read in this and other Forums this XXX 18 driver likes 2-4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure and 6-8 cubic feet in a ported enclosure (per driver). Thanks and congratulations on what seems to be one of the definitive reference systems here on this Forum....or anywhere for that matter.
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post #518 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Dave - great thread. One question - since the RE Audio XXX 18" is primarily designed for a sealed or ported enclosure, how did you determine the cubic volume you needed per driver for using these in an IB configuration? In other words, what VAS did you use? From what I have read in this and other Forums this XXX 18 driver likes 2-4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure and 6-8 cubic feet in a ported enclosure (per driver). Thanks and congratulations on what seems to be one of the definitive reference systems here on this Forum....or anywhere for that matter.

I can't answer your IB specific issue at the moment, but I can say that this is the first time I have ever heard of the RE XXX playing nice in a 2 - 4ft^3 box! I couldn't imagine a RE XXX in a 2ft^3 box. I bet the renowned low end would roll off to non-existence...lol

For reference, here is a OM measurement of my old LMS-U's (credit Archaea here). One sub is in a 2.2ft^3 box and the other was in a 4.2^3 box. The results were then combined to make an average:



Didn't mean to stray from your original question. Just the thought of a RE XXX in a 2ft^3 box threw me off. A 4ft^3 box is more conceivable, but I'm pretty sure it would benefit from an even larger box still.
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post #519 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 07:35 AM
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I suspect he is quoting the RE recommendations for car audio which really have nothing to do with making the driver perform best and are more about just getting it in the vehicle at all and keeping it from blowing up strapped to a 3kw amp being run full out.
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post #520 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I suspect he is quoting the RE recommendations for car audio which really have nothing to do with making the driver perform best and are more about just getting it in the vehicle at all and keeping it from blowing up strapped to a 3kw amp being run full out.

lmao. "...keeping it from blowing up strapped to a 3kw amp being run full out."

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post #521 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 07:55 AM
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Some of what I read was from the manufacturer, others were from this Forum and another DIY speaker build forum. I am not new to home theater but am new to DIY speaker builds, so still on the steep slope of the learning curve - so please forgive me if I ask stupid questions as I am sure there will be plenty of that. I am currently looking at either an IB setup or two sub boxes, each with dual 18" drivers. There are pros and cons to each, that's for sure, plus many different choices to make. Either way, my approach will be DIY. But no matter what approach I employ, two premises remain the same - you have to start with a quality driver and put it into a good design (i.e. enclosure). There doesn't seem to be much difference in performance between the RE Audio xxx 18 and the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 from what I have seen in this thread and others, so that is why I am looking at the different design options for each.

Popalock - thanks for the link. I have to admit, I belly-LOL when I read this from your gtg in Oct. 2012:
Quote:
Austin, you need help my friend. I don't recall ever seeing anyone try to destroy their own subwoofer (subwoofers, in this case) with the zeal that you exhibited. Ever see the movie Spinal Tap, where the amps go to 11? Well, that's popalock. This was the first instance where people started to put in ear plugs. He cranked and cranked those TC drivers until they cried for help, and he was having a good time while doing it. One of his cabinets was only built less than 1 day earlier, so the glue wasn't even completely set! When he and I were talking afterwards he mentioned wanting to know how far the drivers could be pushed before the aluminum cones started to deform. That's either dedication or a disorder. I'm not sure which it is at this point.

Sounds like you guys had a great meet.
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post #522 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Some of what I read was from the manufacturer, others were from this Forum and another DIY speaker build forum. I am not new to home theater but am new to DIY speaker builds, so still on the steep slope of the learning curve - so please forgive me if I ask stupid questions as I am sure there will be plenty of that. I am currently looking at either an IB setup or two sub boxes, each with dual 18" drivers. There are pros and cons to each, that's for sure, plus many different choices to make. Either way, my approach will be DIY. But no matter what approach I employ, two premises remain the same - you have to start with a quality driver and put it into a good design (i.e. enclosure). There doesn't seem to be much difference in performance between the RE Audio xxx 18 and the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 from what I have seen in this thread and others, so that is why I am looking at the different design options for each.

Popalock - thanks for the link. I have to admit, I belly-LOL when I read this from your gtg in Oct. 2012:
Sounds like you guys had a great meet.

LMAO! First time I read thru that GTG thread I laughed my ass off at that qoute. I thought man, this dude Popalock and I would get along great lol! Good stuff.

Anyway JDave sorry for the hi-jack.

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post #523 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 10:53 AM
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I wasn't directing anything at you personally TMcG. Just pointing out that those recommended sizes are really not good for the 18". It is a large box driver. I use mine in 4.5 cubes sealed each but that is really undersized truthfully. About 8-9ft sealed per drive is much better. Really they are the uber IB driver on the market. Great in that app. The 5400 is a lot better all around in tiny 3-4 cube boxes.
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post #524 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Dave - great thread. One question - since the RE Audio XXX 18" is primarily designed for a sealed or ported enclosure, how did you determine the cubic volume you needed per driver for using these in an IB configuration? In other words, what VAS did you use? From what I have read in this and other Forums this XXX 18 driver likes 2-4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure and 6-8 cubic feet in a ported enclosure (per driver). Thanks and congratulations on what seems to be one of the definitive reference systems here on this Forum....or anywhere for that matter.

HEY DUDE! Welcome to the dark side smile.gif Seems our NC g2g thread is about dead as a door nail in the last little while eh? haha. Anyways, I have two of the RE's and they were each in their own 8.4 cuft box and I have to say, they could have used even a little more airspace to be quite honest. IF I were to do anything with the RE's over again, it would be an IB setup to make powering them a littel easier, if I were going sealed, I would go to 10cuft or so. Ported, eh, id say 25cuft or more, now THAT is big.

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post #525 of 540 Old 03-26-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

I am not new to home theater but am new to DIY speaker builds, so still on the steep slope of the learning curve - so please forgive me if I ask stupid questions as I am sure there will be plenty of that.

C'mon man! Not a stupid question at all. I looked for a definitive reference for "recommended" enclosure volume for the RE XXX, because all I've seen over the years are many random comments/post from owners indicating larger boxes are preferred in both sealed and vented alighments.

Here is a quick write up from this one guy on the forum that posts a lot... People tend to trust his opinion...lol
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=92

Welcome to DIY!!! I quickly learned that certian issues of a particular DIY Sub alignment can be overcome (to a degree) with EQ and more power, so while a manufacturer may "recommend" a certian spec based on T/S parameters, etc... It's usually feasible (to a large degree) to work within whatever restraints you are presented with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Popalock - thanks for the link. I have to admit, I belly-LOL when I read this from your gtg in Oct. 2012:
Sounds like you guys had a great meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

LMAO! First time I read thru that GTG thread I laughed my ass off at that qoute. I thought man, this dude Popalock and I would get along great lol! Good stuff.

Anyway JDave sorry for the hi-jack.

Haha. The meet was awesome! Got another one coming up here in a few weeks. I think the general concensus has been to keep the remote away from me.
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post #526 of 540 Old 03-28-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Dave - great thread. One question - since the RE Audio XXX 18" is primarily designed for a sealed or ported enclosure, how did you determine the cubic volume you needed per driver for using these in an IB configuration? In other words, what VAS did you use? From what I have read in this and other Forums this XXX 18 driver likes 2-4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure and 6-8 cubic feet in a ported enclosure (per driver). Thanks and congratulations on what seems to be one of the definitive reference systems here on this Forum....or anywhere for that matter.
I went with about 4 x the vas of the drivers for the IB. The second IB will be a true IB with over 25 x vas. As other have stated this driver likes big boxes and I believe that the RE web site is recommending for car installs.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #527 of 540 Old 03-28-2013, 07:37 PM
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"From what I have read in this and other Forums this XXX 18 driver likes 2-4 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure"

that seems a little on the small side for that driver...by about 4x.

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post #528 of 540 Old 05-03-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
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I went with about 4 x the vas of the drivers for the IB.

Dave (ignorant question on my behalf) is that 4 x vas of 1 of the drivers i.e. 1928L or 4 x 4 drivers i.e. 7712L?

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post #529 of 540 Old 05-04-2013, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Peter,
That was 4 x the Vas of all 4 drivers. The space behind them is approx 8,400 L upon final calculations.
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My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #530 of 540 Old 05-04-2013, 03:51 AM
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Thanks, I thought so.....there goes that idea.....thats a bloody big space

Edit: in saying that I could fit 2 at any rate - I wanted to do a quassi double bass array type thing, but not enough room for 4 on the front wall

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post #531 of 540 Old 06-23-2013, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Finnaly got the 3rd sound proof door installed, so hopefully this will stop most of the ULF getting into the bedrooms.






My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #532 of 540 Old 06-23-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Finnaly got the 3rd sound proof door installed, so hopefully this will stop most of the ULF getting into the bedrooms.

Missile silo...
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post #533 of 540 Old 06-23-2013, 08:30 AM
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Missile silo...

biggrin.gif +1

I've noticed that before, .. love the poured, reinforced concrete construction myself, seriously love the aesthetic.

If any residence is conducive to dealing with the LF/ULF of seven, 54mm drivers, ... it's this one.


Love the images Dave

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #534 of 540 Old 06-23-2013, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, thanks guys. Yes, this house is a bunker! Hopefully I will be able to get started on the last array of IB subs now, they have been siting in the garage alone for a while now.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #535 of 540 Old 06-23-2013, 09:24 PM
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Looking great JP!

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post #536 of 540 Old 06-27-2013, 02:42 PM
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Read the whole thread. All I can say is WOW! Absolutely breathtaking! I think your front wall is the way we all should base our AV nirvana. I'm really looking forward to seeing what your back wall implement is going to do for the rooms waterfall chart.
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post #537 of 540 Old 06-27-2013, 05:28 PM
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Based entirely on this thread I am considering major rethink of my subwoofer system. My townhome has primarily concrete walls in basement so with some framing and extensive bracing I could make the space for an IB system. Modeling some drivers in WinISP, the transfer function of an IB system looks similar to a sealed sub using a LT, but will require significantly less amplification. My guess is the overall result would sound better than LT because you do t have to push the drivers so hard, but that is only a guess. I am still amazed by JD's theater!

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #538 of 540 Old 06-28-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

Modeling some drivers in WinISP, the transfer function of an IB system looks similar to a sealed sub using a LT, but will require significantly less amplification. My guess is the overall result would sound better than LT because you do t have to push the drivers so hard, but that is only a guess.


There's two major delineating factors between IB subs, and small sealed subs. Dramatically lower operational power (and everything associated with that*), and latent release of stored energy, LRSE. Both of these major factors, are a function of the backspace, it's overall volume and proximity of adjacent surfaces.


My IB utilizes Fi's IB3-18 drivers. A quad set receiving a mere 225w apiece, attains 125dB-126dB@1m@20hz --long term.


* (This lowers wall current, thus lessening any potential instantaneous voltage drop during the high current transients. Also, low temperature delta, resulting in low compression.)


There's something that's very elusive about an IB's sound. I've got both small sealed and IB. I'm not fully confident in what I'm experiencing and how each element correlates to the sound. But there's something very nice and natural about a proper IB. I don't know if it's the no-load, no air spring environment that provides for a better platform. Or how significant the lack of LRSE is. In my attic, the energy launches waves away without any impediment ... ie., the cones track the signal like an open baffle sub would in a room. There's no variable acoustic limiter that the cones have to deal with during their stroke alternately pressurizing and rarefying the trapped air volume of the small sealed. How significant is this? I don't know.


Make no mistake, a first rate small-sealed offers superb reproduction, and I'd likely be happy with either approach. However clearly there are significant theoretical advantages an IB enjoys over a small sealed.

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #539 of 540 Old 06-28-2013, 10:25 PM
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^^FOH, thanks for clear information. I am likely to go sealed w/ LT for now due portability...BUT when retire from USGovt (5 yrs until I hit the magical 20 yr point) and have a house built back in tornado alley I will ensure the basement has HT room with IB.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #540 of 540 Old 06-29-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
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^^FOH, thanks for clear information. I am likely to go sealed w/ LT for now due portability...BUT when retire from USGovt (5 yrs until I hit the magical 20 yr point) and have a house built back in tornado alley I will ensure the basement has HT room with IB.

Sounds great, keep us informed and share your impressions!

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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