7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 540 Old 10-13-2012, 10:18 PM
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Thanks Josh,

Is that the surround OD? I can't find a cut sheet on it. If I do this, I'll clamp the face of the driver to the manifold, so the surround outside-outside diameter is critical, ...that's why I ask. This is the current mounting method as well.

I saw the excursion vid when you put it up. I'll likely look again.


Much appreciated ...

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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #92 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Wow, great discussion, great thread. I haven't had a chance to keep up with this thread.
I've followed Japan Dave's room/system build, and the complex and perplexing hearing issues he's encountered upon first firing up his previous rig. So it's great seeing things moving along again. I really dig the room specifics and details on choices made thus far in his build.
Regarding VAS guidelines, there are none.
I have about 8,000 liters behind that baffle wall, so a smidge under 4 x the total VAS of the RE XXX 18's, but if vas is not absolutely important that makes things even better. And yes , it has been a long road to get to here with a lot of money wasted. But finally it looks like I may have the room sorted out and have my goal of a sound system that can test my limits, rather than test the systems limits.
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I'm not sure if Josh, Bill, Bigus or Scott have built an IB for HT use, but they do offer good advice. Typically, there's other factors to consider when discussing the theoretical standards for IB construction. Yes, the VAS question seems to come up first, and the answer would be typically about 4-10 is the goal when pursuing those theoretical benefits. More importantly would be the overall implementation of the build, and subsequent optimization with the mains and room.
This case, it is what it is, the backspace is predetermined (and maximized via fluffy stuff too IIRC). The theoretical ideal VAS element to IBs is really a design from ground up question. In builds with less than theoretical ideal, I'd only be concerned with IB only drivers, like Dave's fist choice the Fi IB3-18, and it's modest motor. So driver choice is a factor to how significant the backspace characteristics are.
Thankyou, and you bring up an important point I have been thinking about. Should I leave all the fiberglass wool in the back of the baffle wall? Or should I take it out?
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It's also been empirically determined the space immediately around the drivers is impactful, and ideally can benefit from being free from acoustic obstruction. Again that doesn't apply here (can't be altered significantly), just like the VAS parameter.
The use of the RE XXX 18" drivers is fantastic. Robust bottoming tolerance is hugely important for IB use, sounds like it's the ideal driver for such. I wish I didn't have to be concerned with amp power with my quad 18 IB. I've been considering a retrofit,...another conversation.
Also, you're approaching the IB implementation to a HT spot on correct IMO. Like other approaches, an IB has some wonderful benefits otherwise unattainable in other subwoofer alignments/approaches. The planar wave launch close coupled acoustically to the mains, combined with the response smoothing effects of the additional small sealed balancing subs. I too am utilizing te IB/small sealed balancing sub approach. Dave, good lookin' out, great approach for sure.
The Datasat processor is a piece of work. I attended the private party roll-out last year while attending Cedia. The demo had issues, but none related to the processor. That thing is absolutely amazing. When optimizing, I think you'll benefit most from varying phase and low-pass settings on the small sealed 5400s. I'm guessing the automated optimizing has this covered, but some tweaks manually after the fact may help as well. That, is down the road.
Best of luck Dave

Does anyone have a link, or the actual driver before them to give me some dimensions?
I've been entertaining the idea of retrofitting my 4x18 dual opposed attic IB manifold, for more system experimentation ever since I completed it. I'm interested in the precise OD of the surround, the precise OD of the entire driver frame.
Also, what would be the general consensus on ideal maximum recommended amplification per driver, in an IB alignment, w/no high-pass? As I re-read the powering discussion, dual 2ohm XXX, and about 2kw per 4ohm (2+2) driver, .....is this it, series the coils and feed them ~2kw?
IIRC, there's been a couple IBs with these, and a small amount of small-sealed. Wrt the IBs, what have been the actual choices made, 2kw into the 4ohm load? Without the paranoia of the hard bottoming, the powering can have a lot more latitude, and I've always wanted to employ some big, robust drivers in the IB. Like Dave, I considered LMS 5400s, but I liked the re-coning capability of the Fi drivers. I strongly considered Kevin Haskin's Maelstrom 21"s, again there was some factors pulling me toward the Fi offerings.
My application was ideal for the Fi IB3-18s, with a huge attic backspace, but the inherent roll-off could be better. Believe me, the quality and bang for the buck for the Fi 18s is superb. For ~$1300, material, four of those and an EP4K,... yields 127.5dB@1m@20hz@225w/driver). I'm getting a clean 117dB@20hz at the LP. But still I was constantly re-visting the IB powering conundrum I mentioned on page one in this thread. Despite what a small minority claim, the bottom octaves add realism, .... regardless whether one hears them, feels them or a blend of the two,....high passing isn't an approach I'm interested in. As Josh mentioned, the inherent electronics roll off is bad enough. There's a bottom octave component that oftentimes accompanies percussive explosive type effects. Encountering this effect is fabulous, ...sure it's exaggerated a bit perhaps but that component of the big deep effects is something I don't want to do without. So no hi-pass for me if I can help it.
Kevin, take my approach, "what the heck, you only live once, so lets do this!" LOL I don't know how the RE XXX's stack up against the Ficar 18's, but they certainly are a beastly driver. And I have Keager to thank for the ingenious idea he had for using these in an IB setup. I always thought IB was inferior until I did my research.

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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Dave, which amplification route are you taking/considering?
Also, have you examined the LF decay characteristics of the space yet? The construction method of the bunker is killer for PVG, but sharpens the Q of any modal interactions, and doesn't dissipate the LF in the time domain as well as a stick built residential room. I know you've got bass traps, etc, and I believe Dennis helped on the design to, right? Anyway, it would be of interest to see.
You're certainly going to possess some LF fire-power. cool.gif
All the best
Kevin
I am using the clone FP14000 and I will run two drivers off one channel for the time being. But I think I will buy a real deal Lab Grupen FR10000 and run each sub on its own channel as I don't trust the clone and I question its sound quality. I have no Idea about LF deacy in my space, but Dennis Erskine designed the room to bring out the best possible sound. My ultimate goal is to be flat down to 5hz at reference , so hopefully this will get me there. Forgive my ignorance but what is PVG?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

FOH
Dims are 19" od, 17" cut out, 15" deep. Motor is 10.5" od.
1000-2000w per driver is fine. 1500 is probably "right". If you are worried about clanking watch the xxx excursion vid I posted in the free air driver excursion thread in the forum at Databass. Id link but Im on my phone. That is a 1400w amp channel clipping on it by the end and remember that is an 18" driver.

I tried to find the vid with no success. Could you possibly provide a link?

Thanks

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Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

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post #93 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I have about 8,000 liters behind that baffle wall, so a smidge under 4 x the total VAS of the RE XXX 18's, but if vas is not absolutely important that makes things even better. And yes , it has been a long road to get to here with a lot of money wasted. But finally it looks like I may have the room sorted out and have my goal of a sound system that can test my limits, rather than test the systems limits.
Thankyou, and you bring up an important point I have been thinking about. Should I leave all the fiberglass wool in the back of the baffle wall? Or should I take it out?

Kevin, take my approach, "what the heck, you only live once, so lets do this!" LOL I don't know how the RE XXX's stack up against the Ficar 18's, but they certainly are a beastly driver. And I have Keager to thank for the ingenious idea he had for using these in an IB setup. I always thought IB was inferior until I did my research.
I am using the clone FP14000 and I will run two drivers off one channel for the time being. But I think I will buy a real deal Lab Grupen FR10000 and run each sub on its own channel as I don't trust the clone and I question its sound quality. I have no Idea about LF deacy in my space, but Dennis Erskine designed the room to bring out the best possible sound. My ultimate goal is to be flat down to 5hz at reference , so hopefully this will get me there. Forgive my ignorance but what is PVG?
I tried to find the vid with no success. Could you possibly provide a link?
Thanks

Dave, you won't be diappointed with the xxx in an IB. I watched avengers last night. With just two of them in the floor, and no where near maxed out and a semi broken amp, there was drywall craking on the ceiling upstairs. My home theater is my whole downstairs with 10ft ceilings, so I'm guessing about 13000 cu ftand an open stair way to the rest of the house. You'll have fun with them. BTW, do you have access behind the baffle wall? These drivers are extremely akward because they are so deep and the shape of the basket and motor. Of course my experience with them was a little unorthodox.biggrin.gif
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post #94 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I have about 8,000 liters behind that baffle wall, so a smidge under 4 x the total VAS of the RE XXX 18's, but if vas is not absolutely important that makes things even better. And yes , it has been a long road to get to here with a lot of money wasted. But finally it looks like I may have the room sorted out and have my goal of a sound system that can test my limits, rather than test the systems limits.
Thankyou, and you bring up an important point I have been thinking about. Should I leave all the fiberglass wool in the back of the baffle wall? Or should I take it out?

Leave it in, without question.
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Kevin, take my approach, "what the heck, you only live once, so lets do this!"

smile.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I don't know how the RE XXX's stack up against the Ficar 18's, but they certainly are a beastly driver. And I have Keager to thank for the ingenious idea he had for using these in an IB setup. I always thought IB was inferior until I did my research.

Just like every alignment, each has it's strengths. I may be one of the few around these parts with both high performance IB, and small sealed. IB's weaknesses are one can't move them for room response optimization, but with much planning and pre-measurments, issues can be mitigated. Done right, they possess characteristics otherwise unattainable. Poorly executed they can be be quite the hindrance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I am using the clone FP14000 and I will run two drivers off one channel for the time being. But I think I will buy a real deal Lab Grupen FR10000 and run each sub on its own channel as I don't trust the clone and I question its sound quality.

I wouldn't concern myself with sound quality, however your trust issue is consistant with mine. The real Labs will likely offer up decades of trouble free service. I've used them extensively in the pro world, and it didn't surprise me one bit to see them all over CEDIA this year in the highest of high-end applications. Many companies have partnered with them with success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I have no Idea about LF deacy in my space, but Dennis Erskine designed the room to bring out the best possible sound. My ultimate goal is to be flat down to 5hz at reference , so hopefully this will get me there.

Dennis is great, advanced modeling is powerful but measuring after the fact actually emcompasses all variables otherwise un-accounted for. Boundary impedances can only be approximated, and the complex interactions are just that,...complex. He knows a lifetime of more than I do in this regard, so I'm guessing all's well. When I see the concrete bunker type build, I think sharply defined modes and poor decay. Your build (a couple years ago) became my fave because of the attention to detail acoustically.



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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Forgive my ignorance but what is PVG?

Pressure Vessel Gain, here's my take.

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post #95 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

$1600 to ship, they are some heavy bastards. And I checked with Sonic and that was the best price on shipping they could do.

That's nuts; I shipped a big 350 lb crate from California to Norway for $500; ocean crossing was by ship though so it took many weeks.

try freightquote.com, they broker various shipping co.'s

Noah
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post #96 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 01:22 PM
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FOH sorry my cutout was a bit off...It is 17.375" and yes ot works for top and bottom mount. I have tried it.

18"
Mounting Depth - 14.75 inch
Mounting Hole Diameter - 17.375 inch
Overall Diameter - 19 inch
Bolt Hole Circle - 18.25 inch
Motor Width - 10.5 inch
Motor Depth - 5 inch
Basket Depth - 9.75 inch
Displacement - 0.30 cu. ft.
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post #97 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 04:17 PM
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Thanks, just curious about pulling off my existing 18s and slapping those bass pumps on the manifold.

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #98 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Dave, you won't be diappointed with the xxx in an IB. I watched avengers last night. With just two of them in the floor, and no where near maxed out and a semi broken amp, there was drywall craking on the ceiling upstairs. My home theater is my whole downstairs with 10ft ceilings, so I'm guessing about 13000 cu ftand an open stair way to the rest of the house. You'll have fun with them. BTW, do you have access behind the baffle wall? These drivers are extremely akward because they are so deep and the shape of the basket and motor. Of course my experience with them was a little unorthodox.biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif Sounds like a lot of fun!
I don't have access behind the baffle wall, but I do have a few ideas on how I will mount without the need for it. over 100lbs of driver is going to be fun to mount for sure.
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Leave it in, without question.
smile.gif
Just like every alignment, each has it's strengths. I may be one of the few around these parts with both high performance IB, and small sealed. IB's weaknesses are one can't move them for room response optimization, but with much planning and pre-measurments, issues can be mitigated. Done right, they possess characteristics otherwise unattainable. Poorly executed they can be be quite the hindrance.
I wouldn't concern myself with sound quality, however your trust issue is consistant with mine. The real Labs will likely offer up decades of trouble free service. I've used them extensively in the pro world, and it didn't surprise me one bit to see them all over CEDIA this year in the highest of high-end applications. Many companies have partnered with them with success.
Dennis is great, advanced modeling is powerful but measuring after the fact actually emcompasses all variables otherwise un-accounted for. Boundary impedances can only be approximated, and the complex interactions are just that,...complex. He knows a lifetime of more than I do in this regard, so I'm guessing all's well. When I see the concrete bunker type build, I think sharply defined modes and poor decay. Your build (a couple years ago) became my fave because of the attention to detail acoustically.
Pressure Vessel Gain, here's my take.
Great, I will certainly leave it in.

Yes, I agree that concrete bunker may not be the best for LF decay, but he did some very interesting stuff with the design and even without EQ, the bass does not seem to cause much problems.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

That's nuts; I shipped a big 350 lb crate from California to Norway for $500; ocean crossing was by ship though so it took many weeks.
try freightquote.com, they broker various shipping co.'s
Too late, they arrive today, as per the tracking on UPS's webpage. Thanks for the advise though, I will keep it in mind.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #99 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

1 x LMS 18" in a sealed box gives quite a bit pressure. Other than that I have no idea how this will sound.

You haven't tried all 4 LMS's before purchasing the 4 XXX's? Did I read that correctly? Good lord, you are in for a real surprise then, when you get all 8 fired up eek.gif That's all I have to say.
What amp are you currently pushing it with then?

I wouldn't recommend a 10kQ for the LMS's in a sealed config. I tried powering mine with 1 channel at 4-ohm and it could barely reach xmax with infrasonic sinewaves before clipping. It would be hard pressed to make the most out of the driver on normal music program material.
It would still be pretty solid, but not ALL that it could be. Same goes for the 21's (for those whom have them prior to them going out of business.)
An FP14K on the other hand, would have no problem; actually it can push it beyond its design, so be careful.

In summary, I would recommend you buy (at least) two FP14k's and one 10kQ for the IB; if not 4 FP14k's.
If you can afford to purchase 4 of the real McCoy's, all the power to you eek.gif
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post #100 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

You haven't tried all 4 LMS's before purchasing the 4 XXX's? Did I read that correctly? Good lord, you are in for a real surprise then, when you get all 8 fired up eek.gif That's all I have to say.
What amp are you currently pushing it with then?
No, not yet. I am using one channel of the FP14K for the LMS with the gain turned right down. I am not trying to push its limits, just wanted to have a little bit of LF for the time being while I get everything sorted out.
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I wouldn't recommend a 10kQ for the LMS's in a sealed config. I tried powering mine with 1 channel at 4-ohm and it could barely reach xmax with infrasonic sinewaves before clipping. It would be hard pressed to make the most out of the driver on normal music program material.
It would still be pretty solid, but not ALL that it could be. Same goes for the 21's (for those whom have them prior to them going out of business.)
An FP14K on the other hand, would have no problem; actually it can push it beyond its design, so be careful.
In summary, I would recommend you buy (at least) two FP14k's and one 10kQ for the IB; if not 4 FP14k's.
If you can afford to purchase 4 of the real McCoy's, all the power to you eek.gif
I was going to use the FP14K with two drivers at 4 omhs, which should give me 4400w perchannel or 2200w per driver. And then I could drive the RE XXX's off the Lab grupen10K amp. And if the clone packs it is I will get the Lab grupen 14K for the LMS.

I don't want to have to worry about breaking anything which is why I want the head room.

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Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

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What about the other 2 LMS's though? Are you picking up a second 14K for them?
The only way you'd be able to power 4 LMS's with one 14K would be to do 16ohm series bridged (or dual 8-ohm), which is only 1175 watts per sub. Which is 1/3rd of the power they need to perform best. Which is only 1/2 the power of what the 10kQ does into the same subs with each on its own channel at 4-ohm.
Or... I suppose you could disable 4 of the coils, and run double the power into the 4 that remain at dual 4-ohm series (which I would recommend instead, in a pinch of having only 1 FP14K).

The real deal would probably power 4 because it can handle dual 2-ohm which you'd be one of the first people on AVS to extract the full 14,000watts into 4-ohm bridged potential from a Lab. 60amp circuit? eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #102 of 540 Old 10-14-2012, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I could use the FP10Q at 2 ohms ,using a channel for each LMS, that would give me 2500w per channel per driver. So it would makes sense to to get 2 FP10Q's and run the RE XXX's off one of those too. I would not need the 14K?

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post #103 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I could use the FP10Q at 2 ohms ,using a channel for each LMS, that would give me 2500w per channel per driver. So it would makes sense to to get 2 FP10Q's and run the RE XXX's off one of those too. I would not need the 14K?

Bad idea. The Clones are not stable @ 2 ohm.

HZ logic is correct.

You are going to need two more amps. If you are planning on running your RE XXX off of your current FP14K, then you will need two additional FP14K to properly power your LMS-U's. Given you purchased 4 of the dual 4 ohm RE XXX, utilizing the FP10000Q is no longer your best bet from an efficiency standpoint.

2 more FP14K is what you need to round everything out.

 

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post #104 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 01:02 AM
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Wasn't the plan to use the LMS-Ultra's in two dual-opposed enclosures?

10,000Q = 2x4,200w @ 8 ohms bridged pair. Bam!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #105 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 01:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Bad idea. The Clones are not stable @ 2 ohm.
HZ logic is correct.
You are going to need two more amps. If you are planning on running your RE XXX off of your current FP14K, then you will need two additional FP14K to properly power your LMS-U's. Given you purchased 4 of the dual 4 ohm RE XXX, utilizing the FP10000Q is no longer your best bet from an efficiency standpoint.
2 more FP14K is what you need to round everything out.
I am not going to use the clones, I am going to buy the Lab Gruppen FP10000Q and I believe they can handle the 2 ohms @ 2500w. And for the 4 ohms RE XXX's , I will be able to get 2100w @ 4 ohms for each channel which should be more than enough in an IB setup?
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Wasn't the plan to use the LMS-Ultra's in two dual-opposed enclosures?
10,000Q = 2x4,200w @ 8 ohms bridged pair. Bam!
Yes, I am going to do them dual oppossed, 2 cabs x 4 drivers.
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Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

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post #106 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Dave forget about the whole VAS thing. Seriously. If the IB guys want to say that it's not a true IB because it doesn't meet some prescribed vas multiplied by how much amount of air volume who cares. It's not like you will hear some huge audible difference between 15 cubes per driver and 150 cubes per driver.
How much space you got anyway?
Ricci, I did not see this post. As I posted earlier I have about 8000L.

Due to the fact that the all the walls except the the front baffle wall where the drivers will be and the the baffle wall is sealed , this will act like an oversized sealed sub. Is there a way to calculate how much force will be on the front wall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. IB means Infinite Baffle, which is defined as a speaker where the front and rear waves do not meet. Said definition applies equally to a 1/2 cu ft sealed box and a 10,000 cu ft attic. Vas only enters the equation in determining the minimum rear chamber size required for a desired F3, the same as with any alignment.
What does the F3 do? or should I say mean. Forgive the noob questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

+2
While I acknowledge there is a difference between the technical definition of IB and the commonly used meaning, I don't find it necessary to meet a certain volume requirement before the attempt becomes worthwhile. If you have the space, bigger is better. If you have the money, shoving more drivers into that space even if falling well short of some IB guideline may be beneficial. In any case, my personal definition of IB is a sealed box big enough to substantially reduce power requirements and minimize effects of box on final q. A couple or so times VAS is a big danced box, and the difference between small sealed and that point is much greater than between 3x VAS and 300x VAS.
Great explanation. Thanks.

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post #107 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 07:04 AM
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There is no crowd better at optimizing and extracting the maximum performance from a set of drivers than this AVS diy crowd. I learn a lot hanging around here:cool:.


However, being mindful that this isn't a huge, multi-row theater. I'd think the four, fully powered 54mm 18s, would possess ample displacement capability,... all by themselves. Absolutely, the dual opposed LMS' will add more headroom and most importantly help even out the FR over a larger area. If it was an application whereby every dB possible was needed to be extracted, then it would be different. That said, isn't ballpark ~2kw per LMS good enough in this system?

That's my opinion, ...granted, I've not owned either driver.


Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #108 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

What does the F3 do? or should I say mean. Forgive the noob questions.
F3 is the frequency when the speaker, or subwoofer in this case, is 3dB down from it's peak.
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post #109 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I am not going to use the clones, I am going to buy the Lab Gruppen FP10000Q and I believe they can handle the 2 ohms @ 2500w. And for the 4 ohms RE XXX's , I will be able to get 2100w @ 4 ohms for each channel which should be more than enough in an IB setup?
Yes, I am going to do them dual oppossed, 2 cabs x 4 drivers.


So not such a tough issue powering them with a single 10000Q clone amp, if that's the amp you want for the job.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #110 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

However, being mindful that this isn't a huge, multi-row theater. I'd think the four, fully powered 54mm 18s, would possess ample displacement capability,... all by themselves. Absolutely, the dual opposed LMS' will add more headroom and most importantly help even out the FR over a larger area. If it was an application whereby every dB possible was needed to be extracted, then it would be different. That said, isn't ballpark ~2kw per LMS good enough in this system?

+1. No need to go crazy on the power here. Just get 1 to 2 kw per driver and it'll be good. He will be using 5% of this system most of the time. Just go with 2 10000Q's IMHO if that is the way you want to head. one 4 ohm driver per channel. It'll be fine.
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in an infinite baffle or super large sealed room, there will be next to no resistance from the enclosure to protect the speaker. 1000 watts will send an lms-u to xmax at 10hz. 2000 watts will send it to 54mm or so in model, which is getting into the red zone.

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post #112 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 12:27 PM
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He is not IBing the 5400's. They are going small sealed...Like 2.75 cubes each. XXX's are going IB. wink.gif
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post #113 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 12:50 PM
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ah, my bad.

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post #114 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

There is no crowd better at optimizing and extracting the maximum performance from a set of drivers than this AVS diy crowd. I learn a lot hanging around here:cool:.
However, being mindful that this isn't a huge, multi-row theater. I'd think the four, fully powered 54mm 18s, would possess ample displacement capability,... all by themselves. Absolutely, the dual opposed LMS' will add more headroom and most importantly help even out the FR over a larger area. If it was an application whereby every dB possible was needed to be extracted, then it would be different. That said, isn't ballpark ~2kw per LMS good enough in this system?
That's my opinion, ...granted, I've not owned either driver.
Thanks

That is what I was thinking. I did not want to go crazy with power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

F3 is the frequency when the speaker, or subwoofer in this case, is 3dB down from it's peak.
Long time no speak Sterodude. Thanks for the explanation, I think I have it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

+1. No need to go crazy on the power here. Just get 1 to 2 kw per driver and it'll be good. He will be using 5% of this system most of the time. Just go with 2 10000Q's IMHO if that is the way you want to head. one 4 ohm driver per channel. It'll be fine.

BTW, I ended up getting the 2 ohm driver. So I was even entertaining the idea of 2 drivers into one channel of the clone FP14K, which should give about 1150w. I can then explore the limits of the amp before I destroy a driver (I hope). Then if need be I can upgarde to the real 10Q. Anyway we look at it the 4 LMS U will get a real 10Q.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #115 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

in an infinite baffle or super large sealed room, there will be next to no resistance from the enclosure to protect the speaker. 1000 watts will send an lms-u to xmax at 10hz. 2000 watts will send it to 54mm or so in model, which is getting into the red zone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

He is not IBing the 5400's. They are going small sealed...Like 2.75 cubes each. XXX's are going IB. wink.gif
Theoretically, in an IB setup, what power will send the RE XXX to xmas?

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #116 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 05:05 PM
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@N8DOGG, I don't quite understand the oppossed idea? Could you explain?
My subs will have the bottom of the manifold bolted to concrete, but that will still not stop wall flex I guess. The wall is made out of 2" x 4" studs at 4" spacing with cross bracing at about every 6" (wall size is 2.8m wide by 1.9m). The wall itself is 1" MDF. I don't know if that is enough, if not I will think of something else.[/quote]



If you can't come up with a good opposed configuration, consider bracing the entire baffle directly to the concrete wall behind it, particularly above and between the drivers. I tied my baffle wall directly to concrete with 2x6s on end (the wall itself is 2" thick with doubled 2x6 bracing). There is so much cone mass and motor force my neighbor says she can feel her garage floor shake, so even the in-ground concrete wall is moving a little.

Also consider placing the 4 drivers at the 25% width and height points to help smooth bass response.

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post #117 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 05:06 PM
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Are you going to use a hpf? I think withou a hpf, it was around 1000 watts, but there is probably going to be some roll off just from the electronics chain. Ricci would be the best to advise i bet.smile.gif
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post #118 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Theoretically, in an IB setup, what power will send the RE XXX to xmas?
That depends on how close to December 25th it is. biggrin.gif
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post #119 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

If you can't come up with a good opposed configuration, consider bracing the entire baffle directly to the concrete wall behind it, particularly above and between the drivers. I tied my baffle wall directly to concrete with 2x6s on end (the wall itself is 2" thick with doubled 2x6 bracing). There is so much cone mass and motor force my neighbor says she can feel her garage floor shake, so even the in-ground concrete wall is moving a little.
Also consider placing the 4 drivers at the 25% width and height points to help smooth bass response.
Do you have pic of your wall and the bracing? (I am finding it hard to get a mental pic) And what is the actual wall made of? Drywall? And I am not sure what you mean by 25% width and height. 2 drivers down the bottom and two drivers somewhere in the middle of the baffle wall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Are you going to use a hpf? I think withou a hpf, it was around 1000 watts, but there is probably going to be some roll off just from the electronics chain. Ricci would be the best to advise i bet.smile.gif

That the catch, I preferably don't want to "have" to use a HP filter. If the drivers have enough headroom I was hoping not to use one. But, if I do have to use one I will.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #120 of 540 Old 10-15-2012, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

That depends on how close to December 25th it is. biggrin.gif
LOL, now you do know I am a noob and will take offense at pot shots! LOL:D

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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