7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 540 Old 10-18-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Right now im rocking the av123 LS6's and they sound awesome!!! I do want to use them for a dedicated 2 channel setup though, so they wont be in the theater long...I think.
New LCR's are going to be td12x's with the SEOS12 and dna-360's havent gotten anywhere on box design yet, as I want to originally try them out in the old advent boxes if I can get them to fit somehow.

No s**t? Awesome. Even with the monsters I'm working on, I'd still like to make a pair of line arrays someday. Cool stuff. smile.gif


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post #152 of 540 Old 10-18-2012, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

If we don't push you towards more subs then we would be neglecting our duties as a true basshead brotherhood biggrin.gif

Crap, so does this put me in the category of a bass head? I was trying to avoid that if I could. LOL

Getting a bit off topic, especially after looking at the drivers and lifting one of these bad boys up, I having the wall redesigned and rebuilt. I am going to go with this config if I can.
One driver in each of the corners of the baffle wall.
Ignore the dimensions, they mean nothing.



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post #153 of 540 Old 10-18-2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Crap, so does this put me in the category of a bass head? I was trying to avoid that if I could. LOL
Getting a bit off topic, especially after looking at the drivers and lifting one of these bad boys up, I having the wall redesigned and rebuilt. I am going to go with this config if I can.
One driver in each of the corners of the baffle wall.
Ignore the dimensions, they mean nothing.

if possible, you should really try to get a few sealed subs and put them in the areas you are hoping to install the drivers in your wall. I've seen what you want to do a few different times at other peoples HT's and the results were not very good. Thats not to say it won't work, it could be awesome in you room but don't just blindly build, you may regret it in the end. If you can get your hands on a few subs, you could at the very least get a real good idea of what some of the different configs of your wall could sound like.

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post #154 of 540 Old 10-18-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Crap, so does this put me in the category of a bass head? I was trying to avoid that if I could. LOL

I know I fought it at first but now I am a proud basshead, just don't tell anyone outside the DIY section tongue.gif

Ummmmm, with 4 LMS Ultra's and 4 XXX 18's you're in the rare category of Supreme Bassheads, I am honored to be in your presence biggrin.gif

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post #155 of 540 Old 10-18-2012, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I am tired of all this crap. Im gonna pull the trigger one two more soon as I finish the new LCR's. You guys stink, and really I have a thing about drivers in 4's now.
4.5 isnt enough for this guy, 9 cuft will be perfect as scott already stated. Never heard the deep bass like these guys do.
How many have you got now?
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if possible, you should really try to get a few sealed subs and put them in the areas you are hoping to install the drivers in your wall. I've seen what you want to do a few different times at other peoples HT's and the results were not very good. Thats not to say it won't work, it could be awesome in you room but don't just blindly build, you may regret it in the end. If you can get your hands on a few subs, you could at the very least get a real good idea of what some of the different configs of your wall could sound like.
That could be a difficult thing to do.

I did consult with Dennis Erskine on the placement, and his answer without running a ray tracing program was in the 4 corners of the baffle wall if I could do it. Hmmm... you have me worried now. I may have to consult with Dennis some more and see if I have to redesign everything?

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I know I fought it at first but now I am a proud basshead, just don't tell anyone outside the DIY section tongue.gif
Ummmmm, with 4 LMS Ultra's and 4 XXX 18's you're in the rare category of Supreme Bassheads, I am honored to be in your presence biggrin.gif

Oh, well it looks like I am stuck then! tongue.gif


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post #156 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 05:07 AM
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if i recall, one of the jbl guys suggested that placing drivers at 1/4 room dimensions is a way to minimize many room modes.

might at least be worth raising as an option with your consultant.



slides 40-41. this wouldn't cancel the front wall/back wall modes, but not a bad start.

multsubs2.pdf 815k .pdf file

by the way, a pic of a xxx, then mj buys one just for fun and beast signs up for two more just because...you guys are awesome. :-)

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post #157 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 06:43 AM
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This may be opening up a whole 'nother can of worms, but...

Any thoughts on setting up an IB double bass array? I'd think the drivers you already have could work well that way. The implementation will be more complicated, but there'd be no more concerns about room modes.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #158 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 07:17 AM
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"Any thoughts on setting up an IB double bass array?"

a great question.

there was a guy in germany who tried that. he set up front subs at 1/4 dimensions on the front wall and the same on the back wall.

it did not work as expected.

apparently, when the wavelength gets very long relative to the room, air behaves more like an incompressible fluid and the speed of sound increases by a factor of 4-5x. that throws off the "pitch and catch" theory of how dba's should operate.

i forget the member's name who tested this.

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post #159 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 08:06 AM
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JapanDave, that will only put me at 4 total RE's, but I also run quad 15" jbl's for midbass duty smile.gif
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by the way, a pic of a xxx, then mj buys one just for fun and beast signs up for two more just because...you guys are awesome. :-)

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post #160 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I did consult with Dennis Erskine on the placement, and his answer without running a ray tracing program was in the 4 corners of the baffle wall if I could do it. Hmmm... you have me worried now. I may have to consult with Dennis some more and see if I have to redesign everything?

That's consistent with essentially everything I've seen, .... in that employing an approach like you've shown (a quad array,.. each LF source toward each corner of the baffle wall) is as close to a "not miss" as one could attain. Is it true in practice? I've not done it, but it seems like acoustic sources on each side of both the L-R, and vertical centerline approximates the ideal. Selective mode cancellation, and the benefits associated with energizing each lobe of acoustic polarity, can largely be realized in in the axis involved. Then, the implementing of the small-sealed toward the rear of the HT, addresses the front to back axis.

If any problematic modal or SBIR issues exist, there's a certain degree of flexibility inherent to the portable small sealed balancing "subs".

This is the approach I've taken with my IB. It's a dual, dual opposed (quad 18) attic manifold. I bought some balancing subs to further explore smoothing in the frequency domain, and fully integrating them with my mains. I'm just beginning to optimize again, experimenting and making purchases.


LTD, as always great posts


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apparently, when the wavelength gets very long relative to the room, air behaves more like an incompressible fluid and the speed of sound increases by a factor of 4-5x.

LTD, I remember the previous, comprehensive discussion of this, ... however; wondering, .... if this is related to the subjective characteristic of "room lock", that's oft associated with superb, highly adept low bass reproduction.
confused.gif


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"LTD, I remember the previous, comprehensive discussion of this"

yeah, that one was a real bloodbath, but i learned a lot so it was worth it.

anyway, i'm not familiar with the term "room lock", but it sure does sound like the point where the room transitions to a pressure vessel--peaks and dips from modes are no longer present and the rolloff that you typically see with sealed subs in 2pi space goes away--occurs at approximately the point where the long dimension of the room is 1/2 wavelength.

do you own a set of those speaks in your avatar?

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post #162 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

This may be opening up a whole 'nother can of worms, but...
Any thoughts on setting up an IB double bass array? I'd think the drivers you already have could work well that way. The implementation will be more complicated, but there'd be no more concerns about room modes.

No can do, the back wall is not identical to the front wall.


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post #163 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

That's consistent with essentially everything I've seen, .... in that employing an approach like you've shown (a quad array,.. each LF source toward each corner of the baffle wall) is as close to a "not miss" as one could attain. Is it true in practice? I've not done it, but it seems like acoustic sources on each side of both the L-R, and vertical centerline approximates the ideal. Selective mode cancellation, and the benefits associated with energizing each lobe of acoustic polarity, can largely be realized in in the axis involved. Then, the implementing of the small-sealed toward the rear of the HT, addresses the front to back axis.
If any problematic modal or SBIR issues exist, there's a certain degree of flexibility inherent to the portable small sealed balancing "subs".
This is the approach I've taken with my IB. It's a dual, dual opposed (quad 18) attic manifold. I bought some balancing subs to further explore smoothing in the frequency domain, and fully integrating them with my mains. I'm just beginning to optimize again, experimenting and making purchases.

I am talking to Dennis as we speak, so I am sure he will be able to come up with the best approach for "my" room and its limitations. I will get back with the speaker placements , hopefully soon.

In the mean time I am going to get started on one of those dual cabs.

Anyone got a link to a sealed well braced dual opposed cab for LMS ultra 18"?


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post #164 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 06:49 PM
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are you sure that you want to go dual opposed? i know it gives a little better performance in theory, but dual forward facing like 'not's build just looks so much more badass...


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post #165 of 540 Old 10-19-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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are you sure that you want to go dual opposed? i know it gives a little better performance in theory, but dual forward facing like 'not's build just looks so much more badass...

No it definitely does not have to be dual oppossed. I just need to make the cab small enough and heavy enough that it stays still. I learnt a lot from you guys in the Clone thread and I have seen my mistakes. So for sure open to suggestions, but they will be somewhere up the back of the room when I do get them done.


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post #166 of 540 Old 10-20-2012, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'm not familiar with the term "room lock", but it sure does sound like the point where the room transitions to a pressure vessel--peaks and dips from modes are no longer present and the rolloff that you typically see with sealed subs in 2pi space goes away--occurs at approximately the point where the long dimension of the room is 1/2 wavelength.

I've been reading audio related material since the 70s. Everything from Audio, Stereophile, TAS, Speaker Builder, Mix, everything. In the pre-internet days (doesn't seem that long ago) I easily spent $75-$100 a week on reading material at the news-stand. Anyway, I recall seeing many mentions of the term "room lock" used in context with superlative bass control in a listening room. I'd not given it much thought, however I'd always felt it was some subjective metric of the ratio of room cubes, to the system's capability in the bottom octaves.

Upon reading the above mentioned blood-bath thread (great ride for sure, all good), and now your comments above wrt the variable viscosity characteristics encountered below the PVG transition at the first mode (1, 0, 0), I'm curious if this incompressible transition influenced the term chosen for superb control and adeptness at bass reproduction. Merely thinking aloud here, contemplating that it sure makes sense that even without full knowledge of the viscosity behaviour, assigning the term "room lock" decades ago, is certainly an appropriate descriptor,...no?

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do you own a set of those speaks in your avatar?


No I don't own them, merely a fan.

In a studio, in the sweet spot, I heard the model below these once, and the experience was so incredibly superior to anything I'd ever heard it was hard to fully comprehend. JBL did, and still does, perform a phenomenal amount of relevant R&D. I'm constantly amazed at the work they've done. The more I read and learn about their past, the industry giants involved there, the more I'm simply blown away. So, having the monitor as my pic, is in some small way paying homage to these innovators.


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I am talking to Dennis as we speak, so I am sure he will be able to come up with the best approach for "my" room and its limitations. I will get back with the speaker placements , hopefully soon.
In the mean time I am going to get started on one of those dual cabs.
Anyone got a link to a sealed well braced dual opposed cab for LMS ultra 18"?


I'm anything but an expert on diy subs. As I understand it, the beauty of the LMS5400 is the big ass motor, and the manner in which it can play well with the smallest of boxes. I wouldn't go crazy on bracing either, but that's me. I'd think a well constructed double wall thickness of 3/4" (~19mm x2), with modest bracing would serve you well. But the quality diy crowd in here is all about subs, someone will hook you up.

If it were me, I'd build four identical boxes, just big enough for the driver. With that much total displacement capability (eight of the finest high excursion 18s on the planet) you'll be golden, and largely operate well away from the rgged edge.


Best of luck Dave, in all yor current projects.

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post #167 of 540 Old 10-20-2012, 12:08 PM
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No it definitely does not have to be dual oppossed. I just need to make the cab small enough and heavy enough that it stays still. I learnt a lot from you guys in the Clone thread and I have seen my mistakes. So for sure open to suggestions, but they will be somewhere up the back of the room when I do get them done.

Just go with your original plan of dual opposed. This will help to keep the cabinets from moving and make sure that most of the energy from the excursion goes into the room instead of wasted by pushing the cabinet around.

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post #168 of 540 Old 10-20-2012, 12:09 PM
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"LTD, I remember the previous, comprehensive discussion of this"
yeah, that one was a real bloodbath, but i learned a lot so it was worth it.
anyway, i'm not familiar with the term "room lock", but it sure does sound like the point where the room transitions to a pressure vessel--peaks and dips from modes are no longer present and the rolloff that you typically see with sealed subs in 2pi space goes away--occurs at approximately the point where the long dimension of the room is 1/2 wavelength.
do you own a set of those speaks in your avatar?

Even though no one has been able to document this liquid air/room dimension-dependent phenomenon (except maybe to reference a Star Trek episode).

Rooms don't transition to a pressure vessel. That's a physical impossibility.

The longest dimension = 1/2 the wavelength of this imagined transition theory is not borne out in any posted measurements.

System roll off does not go away.

But hey, don't let any of the data, facts or common sense get in the way. smile.gif
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post #169 of 540 Old 10-20-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

if possible, you should really try to get a few sealed subs and put them in the areas you are hoping to install the drivers in your wall. I've seen what you want to do a few different times at other peoples HT's and the results were not very good. Thats not to say it won't work, it could be awesome in you room but don't just blindly build, you may regret it in the end. If you can get your hands on a few subs, you could at the very least get a real good idea of what some of the different configs of your wall could sound like.

I have to agree. It would chew if after all that work and heavy lifting there was a better solution. Theories about in-room low end tend to get shredded by reality.
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post #170 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I am going to add another 4 RE XXX 18's to the equation. These drivers are just awsome


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post #171 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 07:09 AM
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I think I am going to add another 4 RE XXX 18's to the equation. These drivers are just awsome
woah man...now just hold on a minute. May be intervention time, im starting to get a little concerned....biggrin.gif
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post #172 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The longest dimension = 1/2 the wavelength of this imagined transition theory is not borne out in any posted measurements.
System roll off does not go away.
But hey, don't let any of the data, facts or common sense get in the way. smile.gif

Hey Bosso,
I don't understand. Are you saying you've seen no measured evidence of the influence of the longest room dimension, correlating alteration of the native roll off?

That's not consistent with what I've seen.

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post #173 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 09:22 AM
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Theories about in-room low end tend to get shredded by reality.

True

Theory gives one a solid starting position from which to begin, but that's all. Without verification via measurements one is flying blind. Empirical evidence trumps all. The boundary impedances are so deeply complex in their interaction, they can't be entirely accounted for in modeling, thus absolutely warrant verification.



Conversely, taking the boundary impedances away (ie, pro-audio large spaces/outdoor sims), modeling LF behavior, even multi sources/multi locations, holds up quite well.

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post #174 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 09:57 AM
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I think I am going to add another 4 RE XXX 18's to the equation. These drivers are just awsome

Dave, have you hooked them up free-air yet to see them move?
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post #175 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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woah man...now just hold on a minute. May be intervention time, im starting to get a little concerned....biggrin.gif

I will of coarse see how the LMA and XXX go together first.

No , I have not done that yet. Don't really know how I would do that without breaking them?


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post #176 of 540 Old 10-21-2012, 07:21 PM
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I will of coarse see how the LMA and XXX go together first.
No , I have not done that yet. Don't really know how I ..would do that without breaking them?
Just set the speaker on the ground and hook it up just like it was installed. Might need to stabilize the frame with something when you get it moving a decent amount.
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post #177 of 540 Old 10-22-2012, 06:48 AM
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Just set the speaker on the ground and hook it up just like it was installed. Might need to stabilize the frame with something when you get it moving a decent amount.

+1

Free air testing is important, especially so within the IB realm.

Ideally, you hook them up exactly in the specific electrical load/amp channel config that you'll implement in the baffle wall. Then, with test tones (or even known LFE/RB scenes/effects with bass management etc, in full effect), slowly raising drive level while closely examing excursion behavior, volume settings, and clip indications. Performing these test in free air allows one to really get a feel for the ragged edge of the drivers stroke, without of course being exposed to the crushing SPLs that come with the post baffle wall/fully mounted testing.

In my opinion, with an IB, much can be gained from this and is equally or more important in this alignment than small sealed, vented, etc. Plus, it just looks bad-ass seeing big drivers pumping to and fro, .... Freud would likely offer insight eek.gif

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post #178 of 540 Old 10-22-2012, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Ideally, you hook them up exactly in the specific electrical load/amp channel config that you'll implement in the baffle wall. Then, with test tones (or even known LFE/RB scenes/effects with bass management etc, in full effect), slowly raising drive level while closely examing excursion behavior, volume settings, and clip indications. Performing these test in free air allows one to really get a feel for the ragged edge of the drivers stroke, without of course being exposed to the crushing SPLs that come with the post baffle wall/fully mounted testing.
How would one tell where the limits of the driver are? I imagine you can't wait for bad sounds of something hitting something within the driver or it will be too late, no?


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post #179 of 540 Old 10-23-2012, 05:36 AM
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How would one tell where the limits of the driver are? I imagine you can't wait for bad sounds of something hitting something within the driver or it will be too late, no?

As Ricci has noted on these drivers, they will definitely make some noise before major damage is done. I would just very slowly raise the volume and be ready to back off when needed. I have never reached maximum excurdion with mine, as I am more worried about my clone amp than I am about the drivers.
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post #180 of 540 Old 10-23-2012, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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As Ricci has noted on these drivers, they will definitely make some noise before major damage is done. I would just very slowly raise the volume and be ready to back off when needed. I have never reached maximum excurdion with mine, as I am more worried about my clone amp than I am about the drivers.

Good to know.

I went to hook them up just a half hour ago and it looks like they need banana plugs to connect them, is this right? Or is there another way to connect them?


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