7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 540 Old 11-25-2012, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I hooked up the driver in this configuration and I was getting about 85db of SPL. How can I get that much SPL with all these open spaces in the wall? I was rather surprised to say the least????



My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #242 of 540 Old 11-25-2012, 06:20 AM
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Just wait till you get them all mounted and sealed off. I bet you will be even more surprised!
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post #243 of 540 Old 11-25-2012, 07:38 AM
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Hey Dave did you think about back mounting the drivers? I couldn't remember if you had 2 layer baffles or one.
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post #244 of 540 Old 11-25-2012, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey Dave did you think about back mounting the drivers? I couldn't remember if you had 2 layer baffles or one.

What do you mean "back mounting" ?

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #245 of 540 Old 11-25-2012, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey Dave did you think about back mounting the drivers? I couldn't remember if you had 2 layer baffles or one.

Just figured out what you meant by back mounting. What is the advantage of back mounting them? And I have two layer baffles BTW.
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Just wait till you get them all mounted and sealed off. I bet you will be even more surprised!

Thanks Keager, I should have the other 3 in this week. Then just put the rest of the wall up and I am done.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #246 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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3 done and 1 to go!!!


My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #247 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 12:37 PM
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Nice!

Keep going. biggrin.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #248 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 12:59 PM
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Revisiting the driver mounting locations, it's truly a "win-win" scenario, both acoustically and mechanically. Mechanically, those big bass pumps are ideally located as to lessen any potential movement and maximize the effectiveness of the structural steel.

Dave, I loved this build the first time around, and this time is no different.

Continued good luck

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
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post #249 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

3 done and 1 to go!!!

Looking awesome man.

Are you anticipating screen flex when you have these pumping hard?

 

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post #250 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Nice!
Keep going. biggrin.gif

Thanks Scott.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Revisiting the driver mounting locations, it's truly a "win-win" scenario, both acoustically and mechanically. Mechanically, those big bass pumps are ideally located as to lessen any potential movement and maximize the effectiveness of the structural steel.
Dave, I loved this build the first time around, and this time is no different.
Continued good luck
Thanks again FOH. They certainly are very secure when I tested them the other day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Looking awesome man.
Are you anticipating screen flex when you have these pumping hard?
No, the area behind the screen is pretty big and the screen is a bit away from them, not to mention it being an acoustic screen. Also the placement of the woofers are at the edges of the screen where it is pulled tightest, if they were in the middle I think I would see a bit of movement on heavy base scenes.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #251 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 04:08 PM
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Typically, IB arrays playing LF at high levels isn't found to be significantly problematic.

In this particular scenario, Dave will have four more drivers as well, thus lessening the exursion of any one individual driver. As many of us with multiples have discovered (I've got 8 drivers also), they don't exhibit much discernable motion until you really hit the deepest content at the highest levels.

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #252 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

No, the area behind the screen is pretty big and the screen is a bit away from them, not to mention it being an acoustic screen. Also the placement of the woofers are at the edges of the screen where it is pulled tightest, if they were in the middle I think I would see a bit of movement on heavy base scenes.

How far away will your screen be from the subs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Typically, IB arrays playing LF at high levels isn't found to be significantly problematic.
In this particular scenario, Dave will have four more drivers as well, thus lessening the exursion of any one individual driver. As many of us with multiples have discovered (I've got 8 drivers also), they don't exhibit much discernable motion until you really hit the deepest content at the highest levels.

When it's all said and done, Dave will have one of the highest displacement setups that I've seen here on AVS. I sure hope he hits those low notes at the highest levels often! :-)

Dave, I know this is your sub thread, but have you mentioned what you were planning on using for your LCR to compliment your bass???

 

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post #253 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

How far away will your screen be from the subs?
When it's all said and done, Dave will have one of the highest displacement setups that I've seen here on AVS. I sure hope he hits those low notes at the highest levels often! :-)
Dave, I know this is your sub thread, but have you mentioned what you were planning on using for your LCR to compliment your bass???

They will be about 12" away.

I am using these Quested speakers for LCR duties.



Depending on in room response, I will probably cross them at about 60-65hz.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #254 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
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I just made an account on AVS & I must say I'm in love already... I'm a car audio guy & turning into a home audio junkie as we speak. Threads like this make me want to convert that much faster! Amazing build!! Can't wait to see the finished product... very impressed!! Keep up the awsome work.
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post #255 of 540 Old 11-26-2012, 07:47 PM
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hi gti, welcome aboard.

there are many builds here from some relatively simple sealed systems to some MONSTER horns...from budget builds to cost-no-object.

are you comtemplating a build?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #256 of 540 Old 11-27-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, as I understand this, I am going to have to seal this baffle wall.

I have a problem, I have 7 x 10 AWG speaker wire that needs to be threaded through the the baffle wall somewhere. Would I be wise to speaker posts like you would in a sealed sub box?

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #257 of 540 Old 11-27-2012, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I am officially scared!

I fired up the drivers still in this configuration and I am easily getting 100db on the pod scene in WOTW's and I still think they have more left in them.

What is going to happen when they are all sealed in the wall? And can someone please explain to me why I am getting any SPL at all? I thought running them like this would be just like free air as the baffle around them now is too small to act as a real baffle???

BTW, I went up stairs to check to see how much vibration goes through the concrete structure (my house) and @ 100db it is barely audible in the room directly above the theater. Which is good for the WAF, except my wife expects that she can't hear even the tiniest sound. Talk about mission impossible. I took the SPL meter in the room above the theater and measured 41 dB's, I then turned on the subs to 100 dB's in the theater and measured 41 dB's, so what that says is that the sound from the subs are less then 41 dB's correct? But even then she says they are still loud. Anyway, she is reasonably OK with things now and understands that you can't stop absolutely all sound short of building the theater 30ft underground.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #258 of 540 Old 11-27-2012, 10:50 PM
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You should be getting good SPL, it is an open baffle sub system right now.

I really wish I lived in Japan so I can experience this system once it is complete, it's gonna be insane!

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #259 of 540 Old 11-27-2012, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

OK, as I understand this, I am going to have to seal this baffle wall.
I have a problem, I have 7 x 10 AWG speaker wire that needs to be threaded through the the baffle wall somewhere. Would I be wise to speaker posts like you would in a sealed sub box?

You could do the speaker binding posts or speakons so it gives you some added flexibility. Running the speaker cables directly and just sealing off the through hole is also another option, just depends on what is better for your set-up.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #260 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You should be getting good SPL, it is an open baffle sub system right now.
I really wish I lived in Japan so I can experience this system once it is complete, it's gonna be insane!
The pressure in the room is pretty insane with have all walls, floor and ceiling solid concrete with sealed sound proof doors to boot. I have two openings in the room about 10" diameter for air exchange. Thanks for the kind words. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You could do the speaker binding posts or speakons so it gives you some added flexibility. Running the speaker cables directly and just sealing off the through hole is also another option, just depends on what is better for your set-up.

I think I will go the speakon route as I already have them. Thanks for the suggestion

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #261 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

short of building the theater 30ft underground.

I know what your next build thread is going to be about smile.gif

Have you considered using



instead of regular binding posts ?
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post #262 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 09:24 AM
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Regarding the wiring, as others have mentioned, the Neutrik Speakon avenue is great and the method I'd opt for too. They're truly wonderful. And for those unfamiliar, their brethren, ... the Power-Con twist-lock connectors, are equally as sweet. My LCRs have them and they really are nice (daisy chain-able too) and "pro" like. Like many of us here, I've lived in the performance audio world and anytime one can utilize a locking connector it's typically a good thing.

You can either get multi-gang stainless plates, rough them in with gang-able switch boxes, or merely seven wide signle connectors. I'd likely go for four, double Neutrik plates, and have one un-used, or like I said, seven wide single plates. If you search "multi-gang Neutrik Speakon" you'll encounter anything you want. If you're so inclined, you can order a custom, seven-wide plate, and have perhaps a bit cleaner of an install.

As far as your question about the amount of bass generated, there are many Open-Baffle devotees that really get great broadband sound from both speakers and subs. It's somewht akin to an acoustic short circuit, so EQ is often needed to compensate but great results are there to be had. I've not experimented myself, but there's a lot out there to read about it.



Here's some quotes from Linkwitz on the subject;

"at 120 Hz, one 12" driver in the open baffle cabinet is equivalent to the same 12" driver in a closed box. At 30 Hz, though, the open baffle SPL has dropped to 1/4, i.e. it would take four 12" drivers to maintain the same SPL as the single 12" driver in a box, when all of them are driven to the same excursion."

"At 30 Hz the two woofer cabinets of the PHOENIX are equivalent to a single 12" in a closed box, assuming that the box speaker is flat to 13 Hz (-3 dB). Above this frequency, of course, the two open baffles generate considerably more SPL than the single 12" driver in a box."

"At 60 Hz the dipoles would be equivalent to two of those 12" box woofers and at 120 Hz equivalent to four in terms of maximum SPL. You can add 6 dB to this capability by doubling the dipole woofers and stacking them on top of each other for a height of 28", but this might negatively affect the WAF. The primary benefit of the stacked woofer arrangement would be reduced non-linear distortion when listening at the same SPL as before."

"A lot of air is shuffled back and forth between the two sides of the open cabinet. This sets up a strong sound velocity field but our ears only respond to sound pressure and we do not hear it. This is wasteful of cone excursion but the price to pay for natural bass reproduction. You can see why the open baffle woofer will never be a popular commercial item, when a majority of consumers loves excessive bass, and when a dipole woofer will just not get the room going in all its resonant modes for additional boom."


Have fun

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #263 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hi gti, welcome aboard.

there are many builds here from some relatively simple sealed systems to some MONSTER horns...from budget builds to cost-no-object.

are you comtemplating a build?

I am contemplating a build, i have a good starting block with what i have,however it is all generic audio equipment. My living room isnt exactly "audio" friendly as it would seem since its an open concept frown.gif

Nevertheless I don't want to crowd the page of goodies from the OP!! I hope to one day have something along these lines... when I win the lottery biggrin.gif Keep the goodies coming OP!!
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post #264 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL @ HFGuy!!! biggrin.gif

@FOH, that is a very interesting set of info. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

A wiring question for the experts.

I have been reading up on my recievers user manual as it is getting close to where I will finially be able to apply my first EQ for this system.

However, base management will only take 4 sub channels. My question is, if I were to wire two subs into a single channel which would be the best route to go? Wire the 2 on each side together or wire the 2 on the bottom and the 2 on top together? And would this be even desirable to do at all? I was originally thinking of have a channel for each sub so the EQ could EQ each sub channel individually.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #265 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Just another update,
I am having the electrician come over and re-wire the wiring for the bafle wall (this is the reason why I have yet to mount the last sub) and he will also wire up two more 30 A circuits for the two Lab Gruppen 10000Q's. So baring any unforeseen problems, I should have the last speaker in on Saturday and the wall finished on Sunday. Then , just wait for the silicon to dry for sealing in the LCR's and I will be good to go.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #266 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 06:14 PM
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Congratulations JapanDave..what an awesome build.
I`m an AWE!

Hope you really enjoy it.

Keep it coming
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post #267 of 540 Old 11-28-2012, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freniata View Post

Congratulations JapanDave..what an awesome build.
I`m an AWE!
Hope you really enjoy it.
Keep it coming
Thanks!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


A wiring question for the experts.
I have been reading up on my recievers user manual as it is getting close to where I will finially be able to apply my first EQ for this system.
However, base management will only take 4 sub channels. My question is, if I were to wire two subs into a single channel which would be the best route to go? Wire the 2 on each side together or wire the 2 on the bottom and the 2 on top together? And would this be even desirable to do at all? I was originally thinking of have a channel for each sub so the EQ could EQ each sub channel individually.
Just to add to the above question,

How well am I going to have to seal this baffle wall, seeming as I have only 4 times the VAS? Here is a quote from the FAQ in the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled" forum.
"6) How big a space should there be for rear wave?

The rule of thumb is that for each driver used, there should be a space no smaller 10 times larger than the Vas of the individual driver. That is then multiplied times the number of drivers. 10 times the total Vas or larger is considered optimal. For a more in depth explanation regarding the 'why' of the of the 10 times Vas recommendation click HERE

I want to add a bit of an addendum to the answer to question #6. For those that can't do a 10 times Vas IB, but can do at least 4 times Vas, go ahead and build it. Now this won't be a true IB (Qts =Qtc) . But anytime you can get a space that's 4 times Vas, you'll have a sub with better sound quality than a standard portable box sub. Note, one will need to use standard sealed box construction techniques with a 4 times Vas box. Be sure to choose low Vas drivers if you take this approach. "

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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post #268 of 540 Old 12-01-2012, 02:53 PM
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I would connect the same sub types to the same channel (if you can't avoid it). Don't mix sub types on the same channel, I've never had very good results doing that.
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post #269 of 540 Old 12-02-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I would connect the same sub types to the same channel (if you can't avoid it). Don't mix sub types on the same channel, I've never had very good results doing that.

+1

I believe we discussed this previously, .... w/ the 2 channel Audyssey processing, place the IB drivers as one group and the small sealed on the other. But, verify the subsequent result because the automated process is awesome, but can struggle with huge disparities. I've seen it myself. My IB drives are wound backward, need entire polarity inversion wrt my small sealed balancing subs.

Even with a dirt cheap external processor (MIC2200), I can get them to sum +6dB manually @20hz, but Aud XT32 struggles with the signal/time alignment without help and the measured result is messy on it's own. I've ordered a custom piece to address this. I'd planned to get this 4x8 processor for several months, recently moving forward with the order to help facilitate optimization of multiple subs and EQ'ing mains below the transition freq w/o relying on Audyssey.

Regarding the construction query, loose fluffy insulation for fill, and gasketed sealed joints were necessary. You may not have that many surfaces that don't mate up well, thus focus on these particular spots.

Hope this helps, ..... if not, fire away as there's a lot of quality help in this DIY section smile.gif

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #270 of 540 Old 12-02-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the 4 subs are in the wall. I have the LCR's in as well, all there is left to do is seal the wall particularly around the LCR's. I should be able to get some pics up soon.
And I fired up 2 of these things and ran the pod scene from WOTW and these things can shake the a chair like it has a butt kicker in it! eek.gif Very strange feeling indeed, never experienced that before. And this still was not with the wall sealed and it was not even near stressing the subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I would connect the same sub types to the same channel (if you can't avoid it). Don't mix sub types on the same channel, I've never had very good results doing that.
Thanks, It was always going to be 2 of each of the RE drivers, just which route should I go. 2 at the top of the wall and 2 on the bottom or the 2 to the left and the 2 to right.
In any case , I am going to use a single channel for each of the RE drivers for the time being while I get the LMS drivers and cabs built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

+1
I believe we discussed this previously, .... w/ the 2 channel Audyssey processing, place the IB drivers as one group and the small sealed on the other. But, verify the subsequent result because the automated process is awesome, but can struggle with huge disparities. I've seen it myself. My IB drives are wound backward, need entire polarity inversion wrt my small sealed balancing subs.
Even with a dirt cheap external processor (MIC2200), I can get them to sum +6dB manually @20hz, but Aud XT32 struggles with the signal/time alignment without help and the measured result is messy on it's own. I've ordered a custom piece to address this. I'd planned to get this 4x8 processor for several months, recently moving forward with the order to help facilitate optimization of multiple subs and EQ'ing mains below the transition freq w/o relying on Audyssey.
Regarding the construction query, loose fluffy insulation for fill, and gasketed sealed joints were necessary. You may not have that many surfaces that don't mate up well, thus focus on these particular spots.
Hope this helps, ..... if not, fire away as there's a lot of quality help in this DIY section smile.gif

Thanks FOH.
I did gasket the subs, But I was wondering about how OCD I should be on getting the actual wall completely sealed?I have put a fair bit of fluffy stuff in the back. I should be able to get things EQ'ed this coming weekend which will be interesting to say the least.

My build thread

My 8 x RE XXX 18" Subwoofers, IB build
Couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Do you know what Nemesis means?

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