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post #211 of 238 Old 06-17-2013, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am a little lost. I don't know what high efficiency (sensitivity) has to do with not being able to listen at reference level. Clean reference level is clean reference level, does not matter if the speaker has high sensitivity, medium sensitivity or low sensitivity. Of course high sensitivity makes it easier to get to clean reference levels. If it sounds harsh as you approach reference, then that is the speaker, the response, the room, the material or some combination.

I thought my reply was pretty straight forward. Very few people listen at reference; in fact there was a poll floating around here a while back, and the majority listen at somewhere between -10 and -15. At this volume level I saw absolutely no difference in dynamics, volume level, etc; between using the onboard amps of my Onkyo and the Outlaws. I made no mention in regards to harshness at all.
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For movies I have no problem listening to my system at reference level. The transients seem to be better running active and it sure was a lot easier to get a nice slightly downward tilt to my response and I am not having to use any room correction. Because of the slight downward tilt, is probably why I can listen at reference level. With movies, -5db below reference does not even seem loud at all.

As mentioned, you are in the minority. Maybe some of us value our hearing more than you. tongue.gif My memory might be failing me, but I thought you had a room on the smallish side as well. Unless you are missing the roof or something, you should be able to hit ear bleeding levels with a lot less than 300 watts.
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I have measured (when I had JTR T8's) and my room loses around 6db moving from 1 meter to 2 meters. I lose 9db for distance and I need to allow 3db for clean headroom. That means to reach reference, my speakers need to be able to put out 117db. Not going to do that using an AVR even with speakers that have pretty good sensitivity. Rather than argue about if you need the wattage, I will let Tom Danley's post speak for me: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1189404/danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit/210#post_17409024 I am looking to put 300 watts to my woofers and 100 watts to my compression drivers. I will say, reference level sounds much better with my current speakers, compared to my old JTR's.

Once again, this can be argued both ways. Going from a 200 wpc amp to a 400 wpc amp is only gaining you 3db's. Unless you have a ginormous room, or very inefficient speakers, I think most would agree you are throwing money away. Now I know this is the DIY forum, and most on here prefer crazy overkill (or in some cases, have more money than sense), but for most of us, the money would better be spent elsewhere.

* Keep in mind this argument has nothing to do with actives benefits in regards to smoothing the frequency response, but merely the response to your power statement. That is the last reason IMO, why one should go active.

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post #212 of 238 Old 06-17-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am a little lost. I don't know what high efficiency (sensitivity) has to do with not being able to listen at reference level. Clean reference level is clean reference level, does not matter if the speaker has high sensitivity, medium sensitivity or low sensitivity. Of course high sensitivity makes it easier to get to clean reference levels. If it sounds harsh as you approach reference, then that is the speaker, the response, the room, the material or some combination.

For movies I have no problem listening to my system at reference level. The transients seem to be better running active and it sure was a lot easier to get a nice slightly downward tilt to my response and I am not having to use any room correction. Because of the slight downward tilt, is probably why I can listen at reference level. With movies, -5db below reference does not even seem loud at all.

I have measured (when I had JTR T8's) and my room loses around 6db moving from 1 meter to 2 meters. I lose 9db for distance and I need to allow 3db for clean headroom. That means to reach reference, my speakers need to be able to put out 117db. Not going to do that using an AVR even with speakers that have pretty good sensitivity. Rather than argue about if you need the wattage, I will let Tom Danley's post speak for me: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1189404/danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit/210#post_17409024 I am looking to put 300 watts to my woofers and 100 watts to my compression drivers. I will say, reference level sounds much better with my current speakers, compared to my old JTR's.
That's a lot of power. I can almost never listen at reference level. Once in a while I'll have a movie that I can play at 0, but usually I'm between 10 and 5.

Once my speakers are finished and setup, I'll switch between two amps I have (adcom 7707 and my Denon 4520CI receiver). Very different power ratings, but I'm interested in overall sound difference.

What amps will you be using?
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post #213 of 238 Old 06-17-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

On top of that I get a lot more out of my wattage. An active system is two to three times more efficient.

Actually the efficiency increase is much less than that, unless inductors with really high DCR are used.

I believe the effect you're noticing is the increase in clipping headroom from separating the signals from each frequency, so they don't add and cause voltage clipping.

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post #214 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 06:44 AM
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Well, it depends how you look at it. A passive Lpad in a tweeter is terribly in effecient. It soaks up tons of power on a CD. But with active its pure power to the CD. But both still put out the same SPL. So depends on what effeciency means to you.
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post #215 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

That's a lot of power. I can almost never listen at reference level. Once in a while I'll have a movie that I can play at 0, but usually I'm between 10 and 5.

Once my speakers are finished and setup, I'll switch between two amps I have (adcom 7707 and my Denon 4520CI receiver). Very different power ratings, but I'm interested in overall sound difference.

What amps will you be using?

With my JTR's I was at -10 to -5 if I was listening to a movie that I wanted to play loud. To get the same apparent volume I listen at -5 to 0 with the SEOS speakers. According to my meter the SEOS are louder, but they do not sound as loud at the same point on the master volume control. I did not expect the SEOS and TD12M to be that much cleaner.

To me the biggest difference may be the material. With music, I find that I do not listen near as loud as I do movies. In movies, it is only loud for very brief bits. With music, it seems to be loud most of the time, so your ears do not get a rest.

Added
Forgot to answer amp question. I have an old 6 channel Kenwood THX amp that I am going to use on the CD and I am going to try an amp that was recommended in this thread earlier, the Rane MA-6S. I will bridge the channels on the Rane to give me 300 watts for each TD12M and the 360 CD will get 100 to 120 watts each.

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post #216 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Actually the efficiency increase is much less than that, unless inductors with really high DCR are used.

I believe the effect you're noticing is the increase in clipping headroom from separating the signals from each frequency, so they don't add and cause voltage clipping.

All I know, I had left active main on one channel of my amp and right passive on another channel. To get both speakers playing 75db on the test tone, the active was set to -4 and the passive was set to +4. Listening distance was the same to each speaker and each speaker was spaced the same distance from side wall and front wall.

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post #217 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 11:31 AM
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Could the 8db difference be a amp input sensitivity difference Mike?
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post #218 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, it depends how you look at it. A passive Lpad in a tweeter is terribly in effecient. It soaks up tons of power on a CD. But with active its pure power to the CD. But both still put out the same SPL. So depends on what effeciency means to you.

True on the tweeter, but so little power is needed for 1+kHz that I disregarded it.
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All I know, I had left active main on one channel of my amp and right passive on another channel. To get both speakers playing 75db on the test tone, the active was set to -4 and the passive was set to +4. Listening distance was the same to each speaker and each speaker was spaced the same distance from side wall and front wall.

As tux indicated, not a valid comparison unless you correct for differences in gain structure.

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post #219 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

With my JTR's I was at -10 to -5 if I was listening to a movie that I wanted to play loud. To get the same apparent volume I listen at -5 to 0 with the SEOS speakers. According to my meter the SEOS are louder, but they do not sound as loud at the same point on the master volume control. I did not expect the SEOS and TD12M to be that much cleaner.

To me the biggest difference may be the material. With music, I find that I do not listen near as loud as I do movies. In movies, it is only loud for very brief bits. With music, it seems to be loud most of the time, so your ears do not get a rest.

Added
Forgot to answer amp question. I have an old 6 channel Kenwood THX amp that I am going to use on the CD and I am going to try an amp that was recommended in this thread earlier, the Rane MA-6S. I will bridge the channels on the Rane to give me 300 watts for each TD12M and the 360 CD will get 100 to 120 watts each.

I was actually using that Rane amp on a pair of Faital Pro 12PR300 woofers and 360 CD's on QSC horns actively crossed with a MiniDSP a little while ago. They were wired up as you mentioned with 2 channels bridged to the woofers and 1 channel to the CD. I did have a cap on the CD as well to protect against turn on thumps though I didn't experience any. It is a very nice amp with very good power.
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post #220 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually using that Rane amp on a pair of Faital Pro 12PR300 woofers and 360 CD's on QSC horns actively crossed with a MiniDSP a little while ago. They were wired up as you mentioned with 2 channels bridged to the woofers and 1 channel to the CD. I did have a cap on the CD as well to protect against turn on thumps though I didn't experience any. It is a very nice amp with very good power.

I also have a cap on the CD to protect it from thumps, but I keep my 10x10HD powered all the time, so no thumps (so far). I wired my speakers up with dual terminal cups, so I can go active or passive, since crossover is still in the speaker.

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post #221 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought my reply was pretty straight forward. Very few people listen at reference; in fact there was a poll floating around here a while back, and the majority listen at somewhere between -10 and -15. At this volume level I saw absolutely no difference in dynamics, volume level, etc; between using the onboard amps of my Onkyo and the Outlaws. I made no mention in regards to harshness at all.
As mentioned, you are in the minority. Maybe some of us value our hearing more than you. tongue.gif My memory might be failing me, but I thought you had a room on the smallish side as well. Unless you are missing the roof or something, you should be able to hit ear bleeding levels with a lot less than 300 watts.
Once again, this can be argued both ways. Going from a 200 wpc amp to a 400 wpc amp is only gaining you 3db's. Unless you have a ginormous room, or very inefficient speakers, I think most would agree you are throwing money away. Now I know this is the DIY forum, and most on here prefer crazy overkill (or in some cases, have more money than sense), but for most of us, the money would better be spent elsewhere.

* Keep in mind this argument has nothing to do with actives benefits in regards to smoothing the frequency response, but merely the response to your power statement. That is the last reason IMO, why one should go active.

I think (was not blind test) that I could tell a difference, but I was also doing the switching. With the MiniDSP, I could tun off left and turn on right with two mouse clicks. This allowed me to switch from right to left very quickly.

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post #222 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 01:04 PM
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I wired my speakers up with dual terminal cups, so I can go active or passive, since crossover is still in the speaker.

That's a slick idea.

You must have three terminals? How would that be wired.
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post #223 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 01:52 PM
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SO do you think the majority of the reason you are preferring the sound is that slight downward slope from the mains? I have always been intrigued why audyssey doesn't allow an option to do this type of house curve as I am pretty sure I would love the sound of it as well.

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post #224 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 02:37 PM
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SO do you think the majority of the reason you are preferring the sound is that slight downward slope from the mains? I have always been intrigued why audyssey doesn't allow an option to do this type of house curve as I am pretty sure I would love the sound of it as well.

Agreed. Audyssey always boost my upper frequencies for some reason.

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post #225 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a slick idea.

You must have three terminals? How would that be wired.

I have one terminal cup with two posts and a second terminal cup (Bi-amp cup) with four posts. I removed the jumpers between the posts.

Added
I connected the second terminal cups tweeter connections to the output side of my crossover board. Did the same for the woofer. Basically I only used the board as a connection point. I could have run the second set of cables to each driver, but this way, I did not have to pull the waveguide.

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post #226 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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SO do you think the majority of the reason you are preferring the sound is that slight downward slope from the mains? I have always been intrigued why audyssey doesn't allow an option to do this type of house curve as I am pretty sure I would love the sound of it as well.

A proper implementation of Audyssey rolls off the top end. Now you can select Audyssey flat and that does not roll off the top end. I have used a rolled off top end for a long time.

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post #227 of 238 Old 06-18-2013, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed. Audyssey always boost my upper frequencies for some reason.

That is strange, because Audyssey (if Audyssey flat is not selected) is supposed to roll off the upper end.

Do you have any measurements? I would like to see what it is doing.

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post #228 of 238 Old 06-19-2013, 07:40 AM
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Same with me. I have graphs showing it in my measurement thread too. By top end if you mean above 15-20khz then yes, but otherwise I see a dead flat curve. Your response shows the gradual "x curve" type response where you are losing about 1dB or so per octave all the wall from 3-400hz all the way up. It is something I would love to try and feel I would get much enjoyment out of.

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post #229 of 238 Old 06-19-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

That is strange, because Audyssey (if Audyssey flat is not selected) is supposed to roll off the upper end.

Do you have any measurements? I would like to see what it is doing.

I have some measurements in my build thread.

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post #230 of 238 Old 11-17-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I have reworked my front wall, because I added a masking system to my curved screen.
Pic behind screen. Subs are not in place.


AT screen with masking system.


Masking system partial closed.


Relocated my SI-18's to a dual opposed box (8.0 CF) sealed box behind the seating.


Currently working on rear surround speakers, slide for A-lens and will be changing my projector setup, getting ready for my VW600ES projector. smile.gif

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post #231 of 238 Old 11-18-2013, 02:09 AM
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Looks nice behind the screen
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post #232 of 238 Old 11-18-2013, 11:47 AM
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agreed! What is the deal with that right speaker? Am I seeing that it is angled down alittle or is that just an illusion?

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post #233 of 238 Old 11-18-2013, 12:08 PM
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Both the L-R are angled down a bit

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post #234 of 238 Old 11-18-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I have one terminal cup with two posts and a second terminal cup (Bi-amp cup) with four posts. I removed the jumpers between the posts.

Added
I connected the second terminal cups tweeter connections to the output side of my crossover board. Did the same for the woofer. Basically I only used the board as a connection point. I could have run the second set of cables to each driver, but this way, I did not have to pull the waveguide.

I'm not sure such connections are immune from interactions with your crossover circuit. Depending on the circuit, there may be several paths to ground through the crossover with resultant negative effects on frequency response when Bi-Amped

Have you measured the frequency response with and without the crossover connected, i.e. completely out of the circuit with no connection to the driver whatsoever?

I realize the driver is the lowest resistance path between (+) and (-), but it is not the only path, even though you are connectedto the output side. Maybe Tux or MTG can chime in on this...

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post #235 of 238 Old 11-19-2013, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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agreed! What is the deal with that right speaker? Am I seeing that it is angled down alittle or is that just an illusion?

Quote:
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Both the L-R are angled down a bit

Left, right and center are all angled down the same amount. You notice it more on the left and right because of the toe-in.

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post #236 of 238 Old 11-19-2013, 07:01 AM
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Hey Mike, just curious as to what your tweeter height is. I need to measure the L&R on the smaller stand that the center channel is on. My center measures so much better than the L&R in my room. I haven't toyed with any angles on the vertical plane yet. Still trying to dial them in. smile.gif
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post #237 of 238 Old 11-19-2013, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Hey Mike, just curious as to what your tweeter height is. I need to measure the L&R on the smaller stand that the center channel is on. My center measures so much better than the L&R in my room. I haven't toyed with any angles on the vertical plane yet. Still trying to dial them in. smile.gif

51" above finish floor.

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post #238 of 238 Old 11-20-2013, 07:23 AM
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51" above finish floor.

Thank you. I figured they were pretty high from the picture.
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