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post #1 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey all,

I am thinking I could build a Better Sub then what I can purchase for the same money even at an ID company, Is this true??

If so what could say 700 Dollars get me for Subwoofer Driver and box. I can spend about 3-400 for the amp.. But I am more interested in what 700 Dollars can build..

I am looking for a bass to go low at least 16Hz for my Pipe Organ music.. Down to 10 would be nice but from what I read to do that loud would take a massive excursion Rate??

I currently have a HSU VTF-1 while good for most Modern Rock music it really shows signs of Struggling with some of the Pipe Organ music I listen to..

Also with the Movies I alwya here all this Best Bass Tracks but when I play them they are to say at least underwhlming..

I have noticed with the readings some get down to 10Hz and even single digits hz rates..

Well I had thought of Buying a Seaton Submersive as that seems to have what I want..I was also looking at the HSU ULS-15 or 2 of them..

Now I have a smaller room but Like BASS lots of it.. Room dimensions are 19'x12'x7' with a drop ceiling and Drywall.. I am in the basement and the floor is cement as are 2 sides of my walls with Drywall covering them..

So I figure if a Seaton submersive is what I am after or up for reccoemndations for similar subs but must at least do 16Hz..

Not looking for too complicated Box. I am a capable woodworker with enough skill to build a Sub Box, may need to buy a few more clamps..

So what could $700 dollars get me for the Box and Driver.. I am thinking possible would be going with an 18" driver be good or perhpas to say 2- 15" drivers??

well hopefully you have enough info to help me out but if more info is needed let me know.. but $700 is Firm for the Driver and Cabinet..

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post #2 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 06:31 AM
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Two IXL18, EP2500, MiniDSP, wood and glue should be close to $1k. Two enclosures not one if possible.
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post #3 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 07:55 AM
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See signature. Basements with concrete is what led me down the tapped horn path in the first place. $1k should still build two of them, and would give you all the SPL you could ever want, but then you'd have to add the amp and MiniDSP to that cost too.

One should do the trick though, since your room is less challenging than mine.
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post #4 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 10:01 AM
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hi there,

the further off the beaten path that you are willing to go, the more performance per dollar that you can get.

the primary tradeoff that most folks are unwilling to accept in commercial offerings is SIZE.

the larger that you are willing to live with, the deeper and louder you can get per dollar.

largish ported and/or horn loaded subs provide the best bang for the buck.

lilmike's f20 horn sub is an example of what one can do with a $150 driver in the right enclosure.

we designed an enormous horn sub for a guy in germany that uses a $450 driver that kicks out something like 125db from about 17hz up and 130db+ in the upper bass. the guy actually bought a house just so that he could have enormous bass without disturbing the neighbors. :-) it was about 4' x 5' x 2'.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420594/hornsub-with-lms-r-how-to-construct

the wolfhorn mentioned above is another example of what can be done with horns.

as far as ported subs go, the dvc385 15" driver from parts express goes for a little under $150. in 6 cubic feet tuned to around 16-18hz or so provides good bass. four of them gets you up into the 125db region in 2 pi space.

the seaton sub is a smallish high power sub that trades off higher cost for a form factor that many people like. nothing wrong with that. if you don't mind going larger, you can kill it for the money.

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post #5 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 10:32 AM
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I haven't finished mine yet, but I'd be willing to bet THREE of what I'm building would be rather formidable in your room, cost: about $800.

tune in if you like, I should be done this week: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433137/from-endless-contemplation-to-fruition-james-first-diy-18-sub-how-low-can-you-go-wise

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post #6 of 54 Old 10-16-2012, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Two IXL18, EP2500, MiniDSP, wood and glue should be close to $1k. Two enclosures not one if possible.



Hi A9X-308,
I was wondering if you could elaborate more on that IXL18 driver?? I found the place here is the link for my reference and anybody interested inthis driver..:


http://www.istonline.ca/index.html


OK, I see there is some Detailed drawings on an enclosure, is that what I would want to build If I bought this driver?? Perhaps it would be possible to get the tune lower then 17hz?? would that be possible or even nesaccary??

What kind of wood is that is it just regular Plywood?? How many sheets would I need app??

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post #7 of 54 Old 10-17-2012, 01:45 AM
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not bad for the money...


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post #8 of 54 Old 10-17-2012, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

not bad for the money...



Hi LTD02,

do you have another Sub driver reccomendation??

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post #9 of 54 Old 10-17-2012, 12:24 PM
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there are many options.

the new alpine is pretty good...swr d4 or d2 (depending on how you need to wire them).

they run about $150. four of them in 6 cubic feet with 3000-4000 watts of power would make for some good bass. 20mm xmax and 35mm or so xmech. lots of copper in the motor. previous generation had great klippel measurements.



ignore the response above 100hz.

with sealed enclosures, you would typically eq up the bottom end. in your room, the rolloff won't be as steep below about 30hz.

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post #10 of 54 Old 10-18-2012, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

Hi A9X-308,
I was wondering if you could elaborate more on that IXL18 driver?? I found the place here is the link for my reference and anybody interested inthis driver..:
http://www.istonline.ca/index.html

Hi A9X-308,

Do you know where I can get this IXL 18 Driver as it seems IST no Longer is selling it.. I had already went out to Home Depot and bought the MDF and Cut the Sheets to the Build they had listed on the Mach 5 Website.. So getting this driver is a must..

I do hear there is a dealer in Australia that has this IXL 18 driver was just wondering If I could pick this driver up in the states..??

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post #11 of 54 Old 10-18-2012, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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OK I decided on the IXL 18.2.2 altho have to get it from Aus. but I already bough and cut the MDF..

So now on to the next part what size Wire do I need to wire the sub driver to the terminal Cup..

I also need to know How far to spread the screws on the MDF Box to hold it together I am using Glue and screws..

So what else do I need? I know I need the amp EP2500 but would that be too many watts?? What is this mini dsp is it an absolutey needed?? how about a Equalizer will I need one of those??

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post #12 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 04:52 AM
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12 gauge will work fine.

if you use a really strong glue, such as pl premium, the screws are pretty much just there to hold the wood together until the glue dries. once dry, the joint will more or less be strong than the wood itself.

in 4 cubic feet, 2000 watts is too much, as it sends the driver way past xmax, 1000 would be better.

mini dsp is a digital signal processor...essentially an advanced equalizer. if you need some eq to bring up the bottom end of the sealed system, it is a good choice.

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post #13 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

12 gauge will work fine.
if you use a really strong glue, such as pl premium, the screws are pretty much just there to hold the wood together until the glue dries. once dry, the joint will more or less be strong than the wood itself.
in 4 cubic feet, 2000 watts is too much, as it sends the driver way past xmax, 1000 would be better.
mini dsp is a digital signal processor...essentially an advanced equalizer. if you need some eq to bring up the bottom end of the sealed system, it is a good choice.


Hi LTDo2,

I just ordered some 12 Gau. wire thnx.. OK So I will just put a few screws in there. I already bought some Glue will see what kind it is. Going to look into the PL Premium glue to see for myself if it is better then what I already bought thnx for the tip..

So should I buy a Plate amp or a Pro Audio amp. one thing the speaker on the website stated=s to use an 800 watt Amp I am confused??
Not sure but here is some info on the box I am building..

1. 285L
2. 17Hz tune..

So at 285 L is that still a 4 cubic feet box??

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post #14 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 05:43 AM
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285 liters is about 10 cubic feet. that is a great design for that driver btw. 1000 watts takes it up to xmax.

i'd stick with the pro audio amp, but you need some sort of high pass filter so that your driver doesn't crash below tuning.

the inuke dsp line is one option for integrated dsp. the mini dsp is probably the best bang for the buck as a stand alone unit.

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post #15 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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OK So here is what I think I need a Parts list if you will:


1. Pro Audio Amp 1000W 4 ohm?? can this be 8 Ohm ??
2. Mini DSP.
3. High Pass filter (need more info on this item I am clueless, is this built into the Amp??)

what else would I need besides parts for the Sub, as I am or in the process of getting all that. just need the externals.

Thnx wink.gif

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post #16 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 06:25 AM
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LTD, what would you choose if you had the option? The NU6000DSP or an NU6000 with a miniDSP? I am trying to decide if I want/need the additional capabilities and balanced outputs from the miniDSP and am frankly stuck there.

Chris
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post #17 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 06:59 AM
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hey chris, don't feel stuck, you are 99% of the way home. :-) remind me what subs/enclosures you are powering again. i can't keep everyone's build in my head.

the inuke filters are limited by 20hz corners, though there are some creative ways to effectively lower that a bit.

the minidsp allows for lower corners. i'm not sure how low it goes.

if you are running sealed, either can slap on an effective linkwitz transform. if you are running a 16-20hz ported, the inuke dsp will be ok. if you are running a large low tuned sub and need a high pass around 10hz or so, the mini would be the better option.

also, just be aware the 6000 can't be bridged. it is essentially two 3000's in one enclosure. an honest 2000 watts per channel, with warranty, is about $0.10 per watt. yeah, a fan mod may be required, but that is like $10. :-)

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post #18 of 54 Old 10-19-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey chris, don't feel stuck, you are 99% of the way home. :-) remind me what subs/enclosures you are powering again. i can't keep everyone's build in my head.
the inuke filters are limited by 20hz corners, though there are some creative ways to effectively lower that a bit.
the minidsp allows for lower corners. i'm not sure how low it goes.
if you are running sealed, either can slap on an effective linkwitz transform. if you are running a 16-20hz ported, the inuke dsp will be ok. if you are running a large low tuned sub and need a high pass around 10hz or so, the mini would be the better option.
also, just be aware the 6000 can't be bridged. it is essentially two 3000's in one enclosure. an honest 2000 watts per channel, with warranty, is about $0.10 per watt. yeah, a fan mod may be required, but that is like $10. :-)

4- D1-Q18"s in ~8cf slot ported and tuned to 18-20Hz. I chose the D1's so I can wire each pair to 4Ohms and run the pairs off each channel. I am shooting for Captivator-esk cabinets as the footprint, output, and capabilities are what I was looking for. Just with more headroom. smile.gif

Tim was doing a rebuild on his Captivator cabs in an effort to tune to his liking and mentioned the miniDSP having the ability to filter to 10Hz corner. He mention some other things that are above me at the moment and I am using the time my son is napping to do some research and gain more understanding of these capabilities.

The NU6000 will be placed in a large cabinet all by itself less the PS2 and PS3 and a small DVD/BR collection. The space is about 19cf empty. I am hoping the amp fan noise is contained within that cabinet. If not, I can do the fan mod with no problem. Here is a pic of the build ins I am working on and where the amp will reside:

DSC03265.jpg

When I looked at the miniDSP, I noticed the 4channel balanced output unit was $125. I see many people using them here and wonder if there are any complaints about the interface. Many of the reviews I read on the NU6000DSP state that the interface is very intuitive an easy to set up and adjust.

Sorry for the invasion Neph, Your thread got me to thinking out loud and it seemed on topic. smile.gif

Chris
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post #19 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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OK I decided for simplicity to go with a DAyton 1000w Plate amp for now..I have a HSU VTF-1 w/plate amp and that seems to do a fine job..So I am almost home on getting all the parts probally within a few months..

Now about the Finish on the thing to cover the small holes and edges do I use a wood filler or bondo or something?? So to smooth it out when I paint it it looks like 1 piece of material and no lines in it??

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post #20 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

OK I decided for simplicity to go with a DAyton 1000w Plate amp for now.
Does it have a suitable high pass filter?
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Now about the Finish on the thing to cover the small holes and edges do I use a wood filler or bondo or something?? So to smooth it out when I paint it it looks like 1 piece of material and no lines in it??
Bondo works fine.
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post #21 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
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OK I decided for simplicity to go with a DAyton 1000w Plate amp for now..I have a HSU VTF-1 w/plate amp and that seems to do a fine job..So I am almost home on getting all the parts probally within a few months..
Now about the Finish on the thing to cover the small holes and edges do I use a wood filler or bondo or something?? So to smooth it out when I paint it it looks like 1 piece of material and no lines in it??

The HPF is set at 18Hz on the SPA1000. If you chose the rack style SA1000, the HPF comes set at 18Hz as well but can be disabled altogether. Make sure you pick the model that fits your desired application.

I can second the bondo. Wood filler, even if advertised as non shrinking has a tendency to do so anyway requiring additional applications when filling holes even the size of the head of a screw.
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post #22 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Does it have a suitable high pass filter?
Bondo works fine.


Yes it has a high pass filter here is a link to the amp:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-809



Yes Bondo sounds like a good one to use..

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post #23 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 04:15 PM
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chris, amps like to breath. :-) a fan won't do much if it is recycling hot air.

neph, there is also an automotive product called high build primer. that can help fill in pinholes and the like.

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post #24 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 04:28 PM
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chris, amps like to breath. :-) a fan won't do much if it is recycling hot air.
neph, there is also an automotive product called high build primer. that can help fill in pinholes and the like.

When I get the cabinets done I was thinking of ways to install a push/pull fan configuration on the shelf the amp is on (top) pulling air from the bottom and pushing via another fan out the left side by the fireplace wall. I have no idea how to go about this yet, but that was the plan in my head. Maybe make a notch on that side and put one fan there and see if that cycles enough air.

Can you buy the high build primer at Lowe's or Home Depot or would it need to be sourced at an auto supply specific store?
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post #25 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
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Yes it has a high pass filter here is a link to the amp:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-809.
But it doesn't say on the PE page or in the UM what order it is. 6dB/oct is next to useless.

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When I get the cabinets done I was thinking of ways to install a push/pull fan configuration on the shelf the amp is on (top) pulling air from the bottom and pushing via another fan out the left side by the fireplace wall. I have no idea how to go about this yet, but that was the plan in my head. Maybe make a notch on that side and put one fan there and see if that cycles enough air.
Please think about this very carefully especially with regard to airflow direction to ensure the air is actually directed through the amp where needed. If it's secure in there and unable to be easily accessed by kids/pets, I'd take the top cover off too.
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post #26 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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But it doesn't say on the PE page or in the UM what order it is. 6dB/oct is next to useless.

What order will I be needing?? IF it is useless then why would they bother building it I am not sure I understand??

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post #27 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 06:37 PM
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But it doesn't say on the PE page or in the UM what order it is. 6dB/oct is next to useless.
Please think about this very carefully especially with regard to airflow direction to ensure the air is actually directed through the amp where needed. If it's secure in there and unable to be easily accessed by kids/pets, I'd take the top cover off too.

The DVR/Sat box and AVR will all be sitting on the top shelf as they both get extremely hot when worked and they need line of sight when operating via the remotes. I was going to hide the iNuke as it will be a component that I won't adjust too much after it is set and will be protected from the dog, cat, and my 16mo old son. I know the amps fan pulls in outside air and blows into the case as it is. I have no problems removing the cover if need be and directing air across the board and exhaust the air from the cabinet. I am open to any suggestions you may have on how to solve the potential heat issue.
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post #28 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 10:14 PM
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What order will I be needing??
Second, maybe third. Depends upon what you intend putting through the sub, but if you listen loud to movies with lots of deep SFX, content below tuning might cause the cone to exceed Xmech.
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IF it is useless then why would they bother building it I am not sure I understand??
Companies add in useless features all the time if they think it gives them some marketing advantage and will get them a sale. A single order HPF is usually implemented with a single series cap, one that will most likely be there for DC blocking anyway, so they size it for a given frequency, say 18Hz and market it as a 'feature' even though the cost is almost zero. To go from (arbitrary number) 5Hz to 18Hz will require a smaller cap which might even save them a couple of cents.
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post #29 of 54 Old 10-20-2012, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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OK This I do not understan all the Tunings and xmech and such.. Well I understand a little but not too familair with all the teminology..

So If I use the Dayton 1000w amp this is NO good?? I intend on putting those Action flicks that I have been seeing go down to 5hz but mostly too 10hz.. I do have the Saturn 5 CD that goes to 0 Hz I would love to get that as low and loud as I can but it is a killer.. I also have those music clips from the Truth Hz thread I intend on playing..

I also Listen to Pipe Organ music with some content to 16hz but the louder and deeper I can get the better with Organ music..

So With that Please let me know what you would reccomend amp wise and whatever else I will need besides the Driver..

Yes I know companies add useless stuff but it seems to be a decent company and was there any reviews of it by any of our members that say it is not too good an amp??

I am just trying to produce a decen 18" Sub the most simplistic but best way I can.. I also was wondering if I get a EP2500 will I need a dedicated Power line for the Amp itself?? I am near maxed on the 15amp line I have now with the entire room running on it along with the equipment like the Proj. and such??

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post #30 of 54 Old 10-21-2012, 02:37 AM
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First of all, where do you live?
When you mentioned getting the IXL18 from Oz, I presumed you were down here, Nuw Zulund or SE Asia.
If you are in the US there will be other options that might work out cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

OK This I do not understan all the Tunings and xmech and such.. Well I understand a little but not too familair with all the teminology..
Simply Xmax is the excursion you can use a driver to with good performance and no damage indefinitely. Xmech is the point where if you increase the excursion (and it doesn't matter what frequency it's at) you will damage the driver.

The tuning is the frequency that you've tuned the box/driver system to, in this case you've been talking about 18Hz IIRC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

So If I use the Dayton 1000w amp this is NO good?? I intend on putting those Action flicks that I have been seeing go down to 5hz but mostly too 10hz.. I do have the Saturn 5 CD that goes to 0 Hz I would love to get that as low and loud as I can but it is a killer.. I also have those music clips from the Truth Hz thread I intend on playing..
I also Listen to Pipe Organ music with some content to 16hz but the louder and deeper I can get the better with Organ music.
With any ported enclosure, below the tuning frequency, if you apply power there, excursion rapidly increases. This is why you need a steep filter, to get rid of any content (music/movie sound) that exists below tuning. With an 18Hz tune, almost all pipe organ will be fine as there are few that use a stop below 16Hz. If you put on a movie with lots of extreme LF content and turn it up, you could damage the driver, which is why I asked.

Here is the excursion of the IXL18 in a 275L 18Hz tuned enclosure at rated power and no filtering. Note the rapid increase in excursion below tuning. This is the same in general for all ported boxes.

nephX.gif

And this is identical with a 2nd order 17Hz HPF.

nephXBW2.gif

The horizontal red line is the IXLs rated 22mm excursion. IIRC Xmech is around 30mm, so imagine another horizontal one there and anything above that means damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

So With that Please let me know what you would reccomend amp wise and whatever else I will need besides the Driver..
I answered that in my first post in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

Yes I know companies add useless stuff but it seems to be a decent company and was there any reviews of it by any of our members that say it is not too good an amp??
I don't give any credence to anecdotal reviews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nephilim1 View Post

I am just trying to produce a decen 18" Sub the most simplistic but best way I can.. I also was wondering if I get a EP2500 will I need a dedicated Power line for the Amp itself?? I am near maxed on the 15amp line I have now with the entire room running on it along with the equipment like the Proj. and such??
You shouldn't need an extra dedicated line, and I doubt you are as close to maxxed out as you think you are. More on this later as I have other things I need to attend to right at this moment.
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