So realistically, how do DIY flat kits sound compared to high dollar retail finished products? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 325 Old 10-24-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That is not the way things work with sub woofers, there is no such thing a 'imaginary bass' which is what 'near limitless' implies. Adding a compressor/limiter to a DIY sub is neither difficult nor expensive, so it's really a non-issue.

What is a compressor/limiter in relation to a sub? How do you add one?

I thought compression came from box design, amp and physical sub limitations?
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post #92 of 325 Old 10-24-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

What is a compressor/limiter in relation to a sub? How do you add one?
I thought compression came from box design, amp and physical sub limitations?

The compressor he is talking about is an electronic one used to protect the transducer. In the simplest form it monitors the output voltage and decreases input at some pre-determined level. That level would be determined by what voltage would cause damage (with some wiggle room) to the device.

Getting the best limiting point would take some experimentation because you have both mechanical and thermal limits to a transducer. Throw in that they are frequency dependent and that thermal has a time component..... designing a limiter becomes an inexact science and beyond the scope of what most DIYers would be able to reliably achieve.

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post #93 of 325 Old 10-24-2012, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breako View Post

Yeah, I suppose you could get a DIY sub to sound decent with some tweaking, etc.,

IMO, for a sealed sub, the tweaking required is entirely a function of the room and the sub's location in it, unless a basic design or construction error was made.

Noah
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post #94 of 325 Old 10-25-2012, 06:07 PM
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What you guys are discussing is a little irrelevant to the op, although very thoughtful. What really matters is if the op is on the right track with his project, which is what I would like to here from him if he has any questions. Besides, the op unknowingly won the first part of his battle by not buying an inferior product and choosing a high quality dayton driver.

I'm not trying to criticize you guys but I guess I am, sorry. I just don't want the guy to get confused, and hope that he is able to properly build his enclosure so that he gets to take advantage of his driver smile.gif

And I'm curious op, did you already buy your amp? Because in a sealed box the dayton hf 15 should be able to take a little more power and squeeze out some more spl. If not, the 250 watt will give considerable undistorted ourtput, but when you really want to crank it, the amp will probably reach it's limits and cause distortion before the driver does.
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post #95 of 325 Old 10-26-2012, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

IMO, for a sealed sub, the tweaking required is entirely a function of the room and the sub's location in it, unless a basic design or construction error was made.

I've been saying this from the getgo...
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Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

And I'm curious op, did you already buy your amp? Because in a sealed box the dayton hf 15 should be able to take a little more power and squeeze out some more spl. If not, the 250 watt will give considerable undistorted ourtput, but when you really want to crank it, the amp will probably reach it's limits and cause distortion before the driver does.

This is an excellent point, I would consider a little more power for a sealed build.

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post #96 of 325 Old 10-26-2012, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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We'll see how it goes, I can exchange it for something larger if it's not doing the job. There shouldn't be a reason to up the amp power due to sealed enclosure because I haven't reduced the calculated box size. So it should be in proper balance with the speaker stiffness. From what I've read, people are upping the amp power to overcome the stiffness created by sacrificing box size, which I'm not doing.

I'm keeping it cheap for the first experiment. The 250W amp is only $120. The DIY sound group site is selling the HO kit with a 300W amp, and the HF in a larger box should take less than the HO setup is my reasoning. I may get delivery today.
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post #97 of 325 Old 10-26-2012, 09:50 PM
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congrats on taking the plunge.

once you take a bite, you are not going to be able to put the apple down...get ready to spend some money. :-)

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post #98 of 325 Old 10-27-2012, 05:54 AM
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In a sense, you can't have enough power for a sub. In practice you should overshoot by having at least double the driver's rated RMS in amp power. Any attempt to 'balance' it as you describe will result in an underpowered sub. This is a recurring theme with DIY vs. commerical subs. Lower cost DIY subs should not skimp on the wattage because...if anything has become a commodity it's clean affordable power. Having an amp where the RMS matches the subwoofer's peak is ideal. Don't get hung up on the exact interior volume of a sealed sub, you need extra power.
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We'll see how it goes, I can exchange it for something larger if it's not doing the job. There shouldn't be a reason to up the amp power due to sealed enclosure because I haven't reduced the calculated box size. So it should be in proper balance with the speaker stiffness. From what I've read, people are upping the amp power to overcome the stiffness created by sacrificing box size, which I'm not doing.
I'm keeping it cheap for the first experiment. The 250W amp is only $120. The DIY sound group site is selling the HO kit with a 300W amp, and the HF in a larger box should take less than the HO setup is my reasoning. I may get delivery today.

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post #99 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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So everyone wants me to go bigger on the amp. Some questions. One, if I don't need to build the amp into the sub are there better options than the plate amps that show up on Parts-express? Recommendations?

Second, would it make sense to have a 1000W amp and then power two separate driver boxes with it, rather than have a 500W plate amp on each box?

Building this thing turns out to be easier than I thought, so won't be hard to talk me into going more. I got the wrong size t-screws, or I'd already be running the first one.
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post #100 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

So everyone wants me to go bigger on the amp. Some questions. One, if I don't need to build the amp into the sub are there better options than the plate amps that show up on Parts-express? Recommendations?
Second, would it make sense to have a 1000W amp and then power two separate driver boxes with it, rather than have a 500W plate amp on each box?
Building this thing turns out to be easier than I thought, so won't be hard to talk me into going more. I got the wrong size t-screws, or I'd already be running the first one.

Solid work!!! Additional wattage is always nice to have. My suggestion would be to either look at the Crown xls-drivecore line and see what they have to offer, super quiet, lots of power, and you can use straight RCA-RCA patch cables to make them work. Next option is the Behringer ep4000 or epx4000, same amp, different looks, and the epx can take RCA as well. the crown1500 would be cool for two, and upwards of that would be good if you are going for 4. The behringer would be a good option either way really, you would have way more power than 250watts per driver at 2 on it, but you just dial it back a shade so you dont melt the drivers and you are all good smile.gif

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post #101 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick summary, I've got this driver (500W) - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468 and this amp (250W) - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-803 at the moment. I haven't installed the amp, so I can return it and get something else. If I get one sub and it's doing all I want I'm going to build guitar speaker cabinets instead. But it occurs to me that I can use the subwoofer for live sound if I leave the amp out of it. So I might want another subwoofer cabinet anyway.
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post #102 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 09:48 AM
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Rack mounted amps are just easier to work with and are more versatile in my opinion. Not to mention it is easier to get a lot more power in them for less money than a plate amp once you get over 1000 watts. IF you go for one more sub, which I would suggest as a great idea, then get either of the options I mentioned, they will work fine. The only problem with the behringer is you would need to switch out the fans in it (takes less than 10 minutes) for something quieter. The stock fans sound like vacuum cleaners.

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post #103 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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4000W seems way excessive, and it's more expensive. What else can I use it for? Are there 1000W rack options? I've only looked at the ep4000 so far.
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post #104 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 10:11 AM
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Lol, neither of the Behringers actually put out 4,000w. More like 1,600w.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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And a build question. I got t-nuts like this:



Now the clearance between the screw hole and the speaker opening is almost nil (maybe 1/8"), and a good portion of the nut is not seated on the mdf (perhaps 20%). Is this just what everyone does?
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post #106 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

And a build question. I got t-nuts like this:

Now the clearance between the screw hole and the speaker opening is almost nil (maybe 1/8"), and a good portion of the nut is not seated on the mdf (perhaps 20%). Is this just what everyone does?

As long as the driver still seats well in the hole, it should be just fine, make sure you get a VERY nice and airtight seal around the driver. Here is a link to the drivecore series amps:

http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

Scott is correct also the that ep4000 watts actually test, only puts out about what he stated.

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post #107 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

Building this thing turns out to be easier than I thought, so won't be hard to talk me into going more. I got the wrong size t-screws, or I'd already be running the first one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

4000W seems way excessive, and it's more expensive. What else can I use it for? Are there 1000W rack options? I've only looked at the ep4000 so far.

You've already mentioned that building these were "easier than you thought." Realistically... you are probably going to be happy with your pair for a few weeks, then want more...

If you get a larger amp up front, it will help "future proof" your bass needs when you build a few more...

Another option I hear is decent is the iNuke (for the money anyway). Scoop up a 6000DSP for $499... just do it now, so you can accomdate the quad's you will be pushing in the next few weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Lol, neither of the Behringers actually put out 4,000w. More like 1,600w.

Agreed. Highly overrated, but still pretty decent from a $ per watt standpoint.
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post #108 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 10:46 AM
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Oh. I love the Behringer ep4000 (and 2500) and think it's probably the best affordable amp you can get. Especially for bass applications. Though I do find it funny when some get tricked into thinking it actually puts a real 4,000w of output. I wish!!

Nope. I know the things power ratings like the back of my hand.

450w 8ohm ch
630w 4ohm ch
800w 2ohm ch
1,300w 8ohm bridged
1,600w 4ohm bridged

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post #109 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

And a build question. I got t-nuts like this:

Now the clearance between the screw hole and the speaker opening is almost nil (maybe 1/8"), and a good portion of the nut is not seated on the mdf (perhaps 20%). Is this just what everyone does?

I personally never use t-nuts anymore, there a pain in the a$$, I just drill a pilot hole and use wood screws to mount the drivers. Make sure you seal the driver well like beast mentions and you will want to use a speaker gasket like this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-542 you can also use weatherstripping from your local hardware store but they generally don't have the same adhesive strength the one I just linked to does but it is not a huge difference.

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post #110 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 11:05 AM
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The Berry EP4000 is a good solid recommendation as well. For the price you can't go wrong and as Scott pointed out it doesn't do the watts listed, well maybe it can get close a millisecond before it's death tongue.gif

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post #111 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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This thing ok?



Or does it create problem with the seal?
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post #112 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 11:42 AM
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That works fine, I still usually goop PL premium or caulk around the inside of that once it is in place. Never hurts and since it is inside the box, it doesnt look bad at all.

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post #113 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 11:57 AM
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^ I just used that terminal. It has a great gasket with it...after tightening down the corner screws snug it is rock solid.


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post #114 of 325 Old 10-29-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

This thing ok?

Or does it create problem with the seal?

I am using the same one, but I am placing toward the top of my speaker, where the horn section is sealed off from the mid-woofer. Separate compartment from the mid-woofer.

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post #115 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 05:43 AM
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Behringer has the most inflated wattage specs in the industry, doesn't change the fact their amps sound good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

4000W seems way excessive, and it's more expensive. What else can I use it for? Are there 1000W rack options? I've only looked at the ep4000 so far.

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post #116 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsOlearysCow View Post

4000W seems way excessive, and it's more expensive. What else can I use it for? Are there 1000W rack options? I've only looked at the ep4000 so far.

Take a look at the Peavey ipr series.

I have a 3000 that meets its power spec at 10 Hz.

1600's are about half the $

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=peavey+ipr+600&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=peavey+ipr+1600&_sacat=0

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post #117 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Oh. I love the Behringer ep4000 (and 2500) and think it's probably the best affordable amp you can get. Especially for bass applications. Though I do find it funny when some get tricked into thinking it actually puts a real 4,000w of output. I wish!!
Nope. I know the things power ratings like the back of my hand.
450w 8ohm ch
630w 4ohm ch
800w 2ohm ch
1,300w 8ohm bridged
1,600w 4ohm bridged

Rms or peak?

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post #118 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 11:37 AM
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I'm thinking of doing a 2 x 15" setup driven by 2 x Behringer ep2000's bridged to 4 ohms. Same speakers as OP but possible ported and tuned to 20 Hz. Any feedback?

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post #119 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post

I'm thinking of doing a 2 x 15" setup driven by 2 x Behringer ep2000's bridged to 4 ohms. Same speakers as OP but possible ported and tuned to 20 Hz. Any feedback?

 

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post #120 of 325 Old 10-30-2012, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Answers to all your questions can be found by doing three things.
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What? Wait you mean I'm not allowed to just hijack his thread? Isn't he done? lol... ok, hint taken!

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