Originally Posted by Scott Simonian
Well yeah. This is obvious to me (maybe not everyone else watching) so I don't fully get Bosso's numbers. I get that on a driver to driver/box to box comparison that both the UXL and LMS-U are much more capable. We're talking multiples here. Pretty much everyone around here knows that the best performance is had with multiples. Your numbers show that the UXL and LMS-U have roughly 6dB of extra output potential over the Dayton 18HO. So add a second with the same amount of power and we're back to zero difference. Bosso is saying now with the Dayton 18HO that one would need 3-4 drivers to equal a single of the more capable drivers. This is where I am now lost.
If it's something really obvious that I'm just missing or forgetting then please, let me know. I'm not the smartest person here but I am confident that my math is correct and that that two Dayton 18HO's should be nearly equal to one UXL/LMS-U. One just has to use twice as much air space.
I'm talking about what I originally said, which is: 2 X UXL-18 will mop the floor with 4 X 18HO.
The amplification should not be any part of the debate. It clouds a simple issue unnecessarily. It's simple to get lost in cherry picking Josh's numbers and finding the rest of the data in WinISD, et, al, but his adding voltage numbers should open the door wide enough to make it crystal clear, if the amplification is to be considered.
He fed that Dayton driver a 10,000W burst to get the CEA # at 40 Hz. Do any of you out there know of a DIY sub that can attenuate that much power down to 600W when a ULF effect hits at 10 Hz, which is all that was used to drive the Dayton to the 10 Hz CEA # y'all are using for comparison? I don't. In any normal scenario (like EQing the Dayton system in a room and playing WOTW), the Dayton would explode.
You can use sims and ignore reality, like LTD is wont to do, all you want, but I prefer putting actual subs in an actual system and seeing what they can do.
As far as the sims go, look at the graph I posted. The 3 Dayton sims posted by various and sundry folk are not even close to what Josh saw from the test. To then look at the same sims and predict the subs excursion after EQ to get a decent response in-room when playing soundtracks with 10,000W of power is a bit absurd. No, check that, it's insanity.
Josh's numbers tell me what the difference would be. I've built enough subs and seen for myself what the difference is when using 4 Dayton-type drivers vs 2 Tumult-type drivers, so I stand by my statement and no one has offered any data that would sway me from it at all.
LTD says, for example, a pair of Daytons has higher sensitivity down low than a single UXL. How so? Aren't the Daytons 3.41 ohm drivers? How would he wire them? Surely not parallel, which would be 1.7 ohms. No, you'd wire them in series. Double the resistance and what happens to your sensitivity? To clock the CEA # at 10 Hz Josh applied a 600W burst. To limit the system to a 600W burst at 10 Hz, your 40 Hz max burst number drops by -12dB. Wire 2 of them in series and apply the same burst and you get zero gain dBSPL, therefore zero sensitivity gain. You would need to double the burst power to yield a +3dB result, not +6dB as LTD suggested.
To drive the Dayton to where it couldn't go any further, Josh applied a 2500W burst @ 10 Hz. Assuming the driver can operate safely connected to a 2500W amp with actual source (which I don't), that pulls your 40 Hz # down by -6dB.
MKT suggested 8 X Dayton vs 4 X UXL with a clone FP14000. The Daytons would result in either A) 2 channels X 4 ohms (4400W/CH) or 1 channel X 8 ohms (8800W Bridged), same difference either way. A plausible system, IMO and experience and using Josh's data. 88dB @ 2M @ 10 Hz short term drives the system close to its max, plus 18dB = 106dB.
The UXL X4 system would be 14000W Bridged into 4 ohms. Another plausible system, IMO and experience. 96dB @ 2M @ 10 Hz short term drives the system close to its max plus 12dB = 108dB.
When you look at the compression difference of driving these 2 to where they can go no further, the gap widens in favor of the UXL.
That looks like at least 3 Daytons to 1 UXL to me.
IOW, the max CEA #s tell me the UXL = 3 Daytons. That's the only conclusion one can draw from those numbers. Look at the posted graph with the actual numbers plotted on it. Bring amplification/sensitivity, etc into it and let's look at the system in a room with WOTW. That's what I do. Others, like LTD look at WinISD and draw their conclusions while apparently ignoring the rest of Josh's data, or how it translates to a real world system in actual use.
I would port the Dayton driver. That's what it's made for. It has too large a disparity from 100 to 10 Hz to believe it will drive a viable full BW system, like the UXL is designed to do. That's just me. For a full BW sealed system, UXL all day long. What will happen is most will think the Dayton is the cheaper alternative and the UXL will go the way of the dodo for lack of sales.