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post #1 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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OK fellas, the time has come from this guy to join the DIY world. Kicking off my own project has been in the back of my mind for quite some time and after this weekend's GTG I'm more motivated than ever. Currently I own a slew of commercial subs including 2 JTR Captivators, 2 epik empires, ED a5-350, etc. I'm looking to start an experiment of my own and seek that ultra extension everyone around here seems to crave. After hearing a pair of LMS 5400's and a trio of Submersives, I'm sold.

Background: I've done quite a bit of reading on here prior to this decision. I'm fairly familiar with WinISD, boxnotes, the various home theater shack calculators, the eq-ing process, etc.

This will be the first enclosure I've built but I'd consider myself to be fairly handy with build/design. I do own a table saw, router, jigsaw, miter saw, circular saw (with guide), sprayer, various sanders, etc.

The new subs, once finished, would be in lieu of my Captivators in my basement theater. I do love the Caps and they will not be leaving my house! The Captivators will be moved upstairs to my living room. The viewing area of the room is 13x22 and the total size of this room is 16 (average width) x 44. Concrete slab, drop ceiling, some DIY bass traps for now, yada yada. I'm not in a rush and I want to do this correctly.

Obviously if I'm going to make this effort I want to use some decent drivers. I'd like to start off with a prototype unit and then expand to fill the rest of the room. I've been looking hard at the Mach 5 Audio UXL-18 driver. It seems to be one of the best values out there for what I'm seeking to achieve. Good power handling, decent sensitivity, and good value overall.

How difficult have the UXL-18s been to procure these days? It seems in the past the wait times have been less than ideal. Have the QC issues been worked out, reliably? I've followed HuskerOmaha's thread and I know he had his share of challenges. smile.gif I suppose I should chat with him directly.


Here are my thoughts on a design approach:
I've been toying with some models in WinISD and it seems to work well in a ~3.5 foot enclosure. This seems to give me the best low end extension down to 10hz while keeping excursion in check. Using Boxnotes I've come up with a box of 20w x 20h x 22d that accounts for driver displacement and some bracing as well. These dimensions give me a net volume of 3.57 cubic feet. I'll likely build the first unit out of 3/4" MDF with a double baffle up front and driver recessed. I'll be stuffing the box with some type of filland using a speakon connector in the rear. Ultimately I'd build 4-6 of these and place them around the room to smooth things out. I've attached some screenshots of what I'm working with.

Bracing - I'd like to use (2) 18.5x18.5 panels with a 17" or so circle cut out spaced 1/3 front and back. Is this overkill for this sized box? Should I stick with one brace, centered?

Edges - Will likely do a roundover on all corners to keep things smooth.

Finish - TBD, but likely something like a Duratex finish. Seems nice and relatively easy to apply.

Open questions:

To keep things simpler and making less enclosures, I'm toying with the idea of first building a dual opposed enclosure. Will I simply double the internal volume for one of these bad boys? If I'm going to begin placing them in the acoustically proven best position of my room (mid wall under my projector screen), I will really only be height limited to about under 28". Width wise I have about 62" inches to work with and depth and I'm not really limited. I'm trying to keep all this in mind for when I build multiples. If I go the dual opposed route, I'm hoping to keep the enclosure right under 6.5 net working cu feet which puts me to something like 22w x 28h x 24d. I must admit it seems that placing smaller enclosures in the room does seem a lot sexier though. smile.gif

My current equipment: Denon 4311 receiver, miniDSP for EQ, omnimic v2, CHT SHO-10 LCR. I currently own Crown XLS5000 and EP4000 amps. I'll be adding to this stack as needed.

Feel free to throw in some thoughts/advise as I begin my journey. If I'm clearly overlooking something in my process PLEASE don't hesitate to let me know. Thanks so much in advance for your input and consideration.

Andrew

boxnotes for 20x20x22.JPG 64k .JPG file
uxl18 in 3.5 cu foot box.JPG 119k .JPG file
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post #2 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 07:58 AM
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How many watts are you planning to put on each driver?
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post #3 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

How many watts are you planning to put on each driver?

They are rated at 1200, so somewhere around that or slightly over? Although I do see a few others throwing quite a bit more power at them....looking for suggestions here from UXL owners? One option is to run an EP4000 bridged on each of them around ~1900 watts at 4 ohms.
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post #4 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:14 AM
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How many subs are you thinking you'll build?

 

Your optimum sub location(s) might change if you have 4 subs instead of 1 or 2.  Have you tested with four subs or two or one?  How did you determine optimum position for sub?  I only ask bc how many subs you need might dictate some of your design.

 

Dual opposed makes sense to me for several reasons:

 

  • Close proximity of drivers means automatically co-located
  • Takes less materials to make
  • Inertial forces of driver movement canceled.
  • Shortened speaker wire runs

 

It can present obstacles also

 

  • Bigger cabinet
  • placement issue(2 of 4 sides have drivers) needs clearance
  • less independent subs, less room mode cancellation ability
  • IMO Less Aesthetic appeal( I like the to see the drivers or have pointed into room).
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post #5 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:19 AM
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Your design looks pretty solid from a 1200W per driver power handling standpoint. Per the Data-Bass T/S parameters you hit xmax with 1200W at 1.7Hz. With 1900W you hit it at 6Hz.
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post #6 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

How many subs are you thinking you'll build?

Your optimum sub location(s) might change if you have 4 subs instead of 1 or 2.  Have you tested with four subs or two or one?  How did you determine optimum position for sub?  I only ask bc how many subs you need might dictate some of your design.

Dual opposed makes sense to me for several reasons:
  • Close proximity of drivers means automatically co-located
  • Takes less materials to make
  • Inertial forces of driver movement canceled.
  • Shortened speaker wire runs

It can present obstacles also
  • Bigger cabinet
  • placement issue(2 of 4 sides have drivers) needs clearance
  • less independent subs, less room mode cancellation ability
  • IMO Less Aesthetic appeal( I like the to see the drivers or have pointed into room).

I've only had a max of 3 subs in the room running at one time. With 1, 2, or 3 subs they all measured and sounded best mid wall. I'm thinking 4 subs would probably do the job, but I could always add 2-4 more? Pros/Cons of each design duly noted. I have to admit the Dual opposed is tempting if I can make it work. Can I get away with a slightly smaller shared volume (say around 6.5 cubes) if they're sharing space? They seem to model OK this way.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Your design looks pretty solid from a 1200W per driver power handling standpoint. Per the Data-Bass T/S parameters you hit xmax with 1200W at 1.7Hz. With 1900W you hit it at 6Hz.

Agreed. I think 6hz would be fine though so maybe they should be pushed a bit harder. biggrin.gif
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post #7 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Agreed. I think 6hz would be fine though so maybe they should be pushed a bit harder. biggrin.gif
Max theoretical gain between 1200W and 1900W is 1.8dB. In reality it's likely to be much less than that since you're pretty close to the limit. Clean output could already be THD limited by 1200W (or sooner).
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post #8 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:16 AM
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Here's a suggestion.

Sundown ZV3 18D1's $480ea shipped.
Cerwin Vega CV5000 amplifiers $699 shipped a couple places.
Behringer DCX2496 $250.

Put each driver in 4cu ft. Roughly a 22" cube. Wire the drivers for 2ohms and run one off of each channel of the amp at 2500w or bridge and wire two drivers for 4 ohm mono at 5000w per 2 drivers.

Alternatively you could use UXL's

Another option that looks better to me truthfully is getting 4 Dayton RS18's and putting 2 each in a 22-23" cube dual opposed. Wire in parallel and give one channel of the amp to each cab of 2 drivers. 1250w per driver puts excursion below 19mm at maximum. Yes xmax is 13mm but I'd guess this is conservative rather than exaggerated and xmech is probably at least 30mm. This is a $2000 system. Want more double up on the amps and drivers.
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post #9 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:44 AM
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Yes you could go down some in box size for space constraints. As you go down in box size, there is an inverse relation with how much power you need to stay right below x-max. At 1200 watts you wont ever have to worry about it, even at 1900, xmax should not be an issue for you as your signal chain rolloff will have already dropped the signal enough that you would likely completely avoid the xmax number in either scenario...I like your XLS5000 as the power source for this build over the EP4000, but that is just me. I dont want to be amp limited. Ever. So I adjust everything to never have to worry about a thing driver wise. You too can do this, and take all variables out of the equation where compressors are no longer needed, it just takes a little time designing accordingly. With multiple sealed deals, best bet is to let the size of the box be the "natural" limiter.

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post #10 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Here's a suggestion.
Sundown ZV3 18D1's $480ea shipped.
Cerwin Vega CV5000 amplifiers $699 shipped a couple places.
Behringer DCX2496 $250.
Put each driver in 4cu ft. Roughly a 22" cube. Wire the drivers for 2ohms and run one off of each channel of the amp at 2500w or bridge and wire two drivers for 4 ohm mono at 5000w per 2 drivers.
Alternatively you could use UXL's
Another option that looks better to me truthfully is getting 4 Dayton RS18's and putting 2 each in a 22-23" cube dual opposed. Wire in parallel and give one channel of the amp to each cab of 2 drivers. 1250w per driver puts excursion below 19mm at maximum. Yes xmax is 13mm but I'd guess this is conservative rather than exaggerated and xmech is probably at least 30mm. This is a $2000 system. Want more double up on the amps and drivers.

Thanks for your input Josh. I actually have a Crown XLS5000 which is basically a mirror image of the CV5000 with a few less features. I also have a miniDSP would should easily handle EQ

I really do like the idea of the Dayton Drivers as an alternative though. Essentially I can buy 2 X of the daytons for the same price as one UXL or Sundown driver. This should give me a bit more displacement, even if it is a bit less xmax per driver. Do you happen to have decent T/S for this guy? The list I saw on PE seemed to be lacking. do you think 5-6 cubic feet is sufficient for dual opposed in this design? I'd like to see how it models duals vs. one UXL. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yes you could go down some in box size for space constraints. As you go down in box size, there is an inverse relation with how much power you need to stay right below x-max. At 1200 watts you wont ever have to worry about it, even at 1900, xmax should not be an issue for you as your signal chain rolloff will have already dropped the signal enough that you would likely completely avoid the xmax number in either scenario...I like your XLS5000 as the power source for this build over the EP4000, but that is just me. I dont want to be amp limited. Ever. So I adjust everything to never have to worry about a thing driver wise. You too can do this, and take all variables out of the equation where compressors are no longer needed, it just takes a little time designing accordingly. With multiple sealed deals, best bet is to let the size of the box be the "natural" limiter.

I think feeding 2500 watts per 2 drivers (2 ohm stereo) sound like a great combo with my Crown amp. Agreed on box size as being a natural limiter, now it's just finding the proper size for them. biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 11:32 AM
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OH OH!! No turning back now boss! cool.gif

As a relative newbie to DIY I will say this. Be patient. Thing dont always go as planned, but in the end it will be all worth it. Good luck buddy! smile.gif
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post #12 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual Dayton 18's in a 5cu ft box with 1800 watts (yellow) vs. single UXL-18 in 3.5 cu ft box and 1200 watts. Holy crap - am I doing this correctly? Dual Daytons FTW! dual dayton 18 vs single uxl.JPG 104k .JPG file

Four dual opposed Dayton 18's placed around the room? eek.gif
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post #13 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

OH OH!! No turning back now boss! cool.gif
As a relative newbie to DIY I will say this. Be patient. Thing dont always go as planned, but in the end it will be all worth it. Good luck buddy! smile.gif

Agreed and thank you! The good part is I have very ample LFE in the meantime until my project is done, so definitely no rushing. cool.gif
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post #14 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Thanks for your input Josh. I actually have a Crown XLS5000 which is basically a mirror image of the CV5000 with a few less features. I also have a miniDSP would should easily handle EQ
I really do like the idea of the Dayton Drivers as an alternative though. Essentially I can buy 2 X of the daytons for the same price as one UXL or Sundown driver. This should give me a bit more displacement, even if it is a bit less xmax per driver. Do you happen to have decent T/S for this guy? The list I saw on PE seemed to be lacking. do you think 5-6 cubic feet is sufficient for dual opposed in this design? I'd like to see how it models duals vs. one UXL. biggrin.gif
I think feeding 2500 watts per 2 drivers (2 ohm stereo) sound like a great combo with my Crown amp. Agreed on box size as being a natural limiter, now it's just finding the proper size for them. biggrin.gif

I'm on it.

Brb


Here ya go

Dayton18HOvsUXL184cuftgorilla.gif
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Four dual opposed Dayton 18's placed around the room? eek.gif

Sure! Why not? Do it.

doit.gif

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post #15 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I'm on it.
Here ya go
]

Thanks Scott, you're the man. I did some modeling of my own as well - it seems like a 5 cubic foot dual opposed box seems to model the best. This puts me at about a 23" cube considering displacement for both drivers and bracing.The difference between 2 x Daytons vs. 1 UXL is NOT insignificant. It's looking like +1db at 10hz, +2db at 20hz, +4db and 30hz, and +6db at 40hz+. Assuming I can put 1250 watts to each driver, the pair (opposed) should be a STOUT performer, especially considering I can likely build each enclosure for under 650 including duratex finishing - possibly slightly more if I got with a higher end finish and/or a fancy grill.

Considering the box size will only be marginally bigger than the single UXL box, is there really any reason I wouldn't go with the dayton 18's over the UXL-18?

Pros for Daytons:
Cheaper to replace
Readily available from parts express - good warranty coverage and customer service
Twice the drivers means I can spread out the heat vs. a single driver

Cons
More space required vs. UXL (marginal and not really an issue in my case)
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post #16 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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I agree. I prefered the 5cuft box too but I was just keeping the model in line with what Ricci had mentioned. Both work.

Yeah, man. Go for it! The drivers are out and exist and can be yours in days. You also have the amp already, right? Bam! Go get some lumber and start choppin'. biggrin.gif

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post #17 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 01:01 PM
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Would you be lacking in SQ with the cheaper Dayton drivers? Just curious.... I might be interested in this option also
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post #18 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 02:28 PM
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the dual daytons are a great idea. each one has a 3" coil, so that is kind of like having a single 6" coil as far as cooling goes.

and, as a pair, they have quite a sensitivity advantage over a single uxl, so for a given spl, much less power will going through the coils.

the daytons with their triple shorting rings may provide the better sound quality. i don't recall reading about any complaints of the sound quality of either the dayton -hf's or the -ho's.

5 cubic feet is pushing q=0.9. no problem there? seems just a little small.

i'd be tempted to forgo any advantage of the dual opposed just for the look of having all those big drives staring at me. :-)

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post #19 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 02:35 PM
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the dual daytons are a great idea. each one has a 3" coil, so that is kind of like having a single 6" coil as far as cooling goes.
It doesn't quite work like that. The surface area of a two 3" coils is not equal to a 6" coil anymore than two 18" subs = a 36" sub.
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post #20 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 04:19 PM
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+1

RS18 on the way.
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post #21 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 04:25 PM
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Sweet! smile.gif

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post #22 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 05:16 PM
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Just may push me off the fence; I've been modeling 8 of these guys all week...
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+1
RS18 on the way.
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post #23 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:45 PM
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What would be the best amp to drive 4 of the Dayton's in sealed encloses to get the most out of them without using an LG clone?
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post #24 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 08:51 PM
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Depends on how you plan on using them. But if you go with what Josh Ricci was saying to do (dual dual-opposed) then you'd get the Cerwin Vega CV5000.

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post #25 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
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Depends on how you plan on using them. But if you go with what Josh Ricci was saying to do (dual dual-opposed) then you'd get the Cerwin Vega CV5000.

Actually I'll be going the flat pack route so there will be 4 separate cabs. Then 4 more later down the road if I need more.

Sry for the hijack... These sparked my interest
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post #26 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:05 PM
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Two Behringer ep4000's then. One for each pair.

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post #27 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:19 PM
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Call me skeptical that you can safely put 1200W on that Dayton driver.
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post #28 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

It doesn't quite work like that. The surface area of a two 3" coils is not equal to a 6" coil anymore than two 18" subs = a 36" sub.

you are confusing area of a voice coil which is a linear function with area of a cone which is a non-linear function.

if you disagree, please provide your calculations. here are mine.

the surface area of a coil is its height multiplied by its circumference (x2 if you want both sides, but for now we can use just one).

circumference is diameter * pi.

the height will be held constant.

3" * 3.14 = 9.42" circumference for a 3" diameter coil.

two of those give 2 * 9.42" circumference, which is 18.84".

18.84" of circumference divided by 3.14 = 6" diameter.

so, two three-inch diameter voice coils has the same area as one six-inch diamter voice coil.

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post #29 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Call me skeptical that you can safely put 1200W on that Dayton driver.

It's a 3in coil...not sure how long but... I'm sure it would be fine for dynamic peaks. These aren't concert subs. wink.gif

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post #30 of 1010 Old 10-26-2012, 09:41 PM
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"Call me skeptical that you can safely put 1200W on that Dayton driver."

edit:

i recant this post as i suspect he was talking about excursion not thermal properties.

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