Looking to Outperform Extremely Capabable Commercial Offerings for my LCR - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: With all things equal, which would you choose for your Ultimate Performance LCR setup?
JTR Noesis 16 32.00%
Klipsch Jubilee 3 6.00%
JBL 4722 11 22.00%
Other Commerical Offering 7 14.00%
DIY (w/suggestions) 13 26.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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*Updated* 21 November 2012 (see post #36)

Summary of new DIY Perimeters/Goals per speaker (Subject to change upon finalizing design)

Budget: $2,000 - $3,300
Design Type: Two-Way
Max Output: 140db
Crossover: Two-Way
Response: 80Hz - 20+kHz (+/-3db)
Wattage: TBD
Impedance: 4 ohm
Dimensions: TBD
Materials: TBD
Weight: TBD


Original Post below:

Hello all,

New to the community, but not necessarily the addiction that is Home Theater. I've owned some semi-decent gear over the years, but for my next dedicated space I am looking for absolute overkill. I literally want to find my physical limits before my gear does. I've auditioned several setups and felt that I enjoy the crystal clear (albeit bright) sound of compression drivers / horn loaded highs. Of course a flat response is going to be my overall goal and I have big plans for the lower frequencies, (planning to crossover @ 80Hz) but for my mains I'm wondering if anyone can weigh in a few different options. I'd like to go DIY with a "no-holds-barred" performance approach in mind to outperform the likes some some very very capable commercial offerings. Here is what I am looking to outperform:


JTR Noesis - These seem very new. I saw these on the Northeast GTG thread, so obviously listening impressions are going to be limited, but the specs are pretty significant! Looks like the are going to be on sale for about ~$2,200 per speaker, so ~$6,600 for LCR.
JTR-Neosis2.jpg


Klipsch Jubilee - I hear nothing but good things about the Jubilee's from every source I have researched. These things are BIG (at least compared to the Noesis) and I personally have not heard these in person, so I am wondering how much of a benefit the (is it horn loaded?) bass bins provide. Obviously they dig a lot deeper than the Noesis (32Hz vs 70Hz), so I don't know how/if they would even be a good comparison from an "all around" performance standpoint. My research indictes that I might be able to pick these up for about ~$3,500 per speaker, so $10,500 for LCR. I found this pic over at the Audiokarma forum.
Jubilee.jpg


JBL 4722 - The specs seem in line with the above referenced products. The picture below speaks for itself and would be something I would like to emulate in the big picture (all gear hidden of course). This seems like potentially the cheapest option at ~$1,800 per speaker, so $5,400 for LCR.
JBL4722-1.jpg


Ok, now for DIY. This is where I would need some serious help. If I was to go DIY, I would need some input on what it would take to outperform the big dogs above. Here are a few components I have picked thus far. *Disclaimer - Being the label whore that I am, you will notice the products below are very "brandish" and expensive. In my past experience I've noticed that one has been able to obtain 95% of the performance at like 50% of the price. (i.e.: UXL-18 vs LMS-Ultra) If anyone has any input as such, please don't hesitate to let me know. Major component considerations as follows:

TC Sounds 18" Pro x 2

JBLCompression Driver

I am clearly missing the horn itself, crossover and any other misc parts I will need to finish a project like this, but based on just the raw components mentioned above, but do you guys think this is a good base to start? Since I plan on going all in with this design, I am willing to consider a 3 way design as well( if necessary?).

Please go easy on me because I am a complete noob when it comes to speaker design and most of my focus in this hobby has gone to my passion for subwoofers. I am open to all suggestions and recommendations and appreciate any feedback in advance.

Oh, one other disclaimer. Don't expect this project to happen overnight given I am in the first stages of design.
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post #2 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 09:34 AM
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I like this guy! smile.gif

Tell us more about your room and budget.

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post #3 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 10:09 AM
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Well, to be honest I don't know if you can make better(subjective) but I know you can probably DIY the same performance for much less. I don't know for sure as I have never heard the JTR or Klipsch speakers which are both their Top performers. I have owned their lesser brothers. I love my arrays more than any other speaker I have owned but I bet I can even get them better but I have not tried them yet.
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post #4 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 10:51 AM
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Your prices are wrong, 4722N's are about $1100 per, and that's with the network. I used to be a huge Klipsch fan, but IMO the JBL's easily surpass them.
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post #5 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 11:42 AM
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And you are wrong. They are actually a little more than $1700.

http://www.performanceaudio.com/buy/JBL/4722/18707?gclid=CMX4hNiqn7MCFROnPAodvS4Acg
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/387526.html?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&gclid=CInB2-Cqn7MCFayDQgodqQ4AiQ
http://www.spectrumaudio.com/jbl-4722n.html?gclid=CK2bpuGqn7MCFW1yQgodZAsAkw
http://www.studiogears.com/jbl_4722n_two_way_screenarray_cinema_loudspeaker_system_63462_prd1.htm?productFeedId=0&utm_source=googleBaseFeed&utm_medium=shoppingEngine&utm_campaign=Google&source=productlistings22879894255&origin=pla

It's the 3722N's that are a little more than $1100, of which I have 2. Please, if you know where to get 4722N's for that cheap, do tell.

If one is going to make a simplistic assessment of the value of different alignments it would be that sealed/IB goes the lowest, at the highest cost per dB; horns have the lowest cost per dB at the expense of size, and vented box characteristics lie in between the other two. None is inherently superior across the board, neither is any inherently inferior across the board. The one to use is the one that fits your response and output needs, available space and bank account.
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post #6 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 12:23 PM
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the project seos/360/bwaslo crossover/eminence driver would represent entry to the "high end" of performance. iirc, they ended up around $300 or so for parts.

member java's interpretation:



seos/360/yet to be completed crossover/td12m, td15m or 12nmb420 would represent the middle of the "high end" of performance. that will probably run around $450-500 for parts.

or you could diy something like scott is working on, though i'm not sure there is even a category for that one. :-) iirc, george lucas has something like that in his 300 seat stag theater.


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post #7 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

And you are wrong.

Nope you are. Bought my 4722N's from full compass for $1065 each.
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post #8 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 02:30 PM
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biggrin.gif

And that's why I was so drawn to this thread.

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post #9 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I like this guy! smile.gif
Tell us more about your room and budget.

Room is still in design phase as well, but since I have a fresh slate I am going to reachout to you guys (most likely in the dedicated room design section) for room design advice at some point. I might even reach out to Dennis and his team for a design and literally build around said design from the ground up. Just for discussions sake let's say the room dimensions are going to be about 33'L x 23'W x 14'H. Those are the closest "round" numbers to get me to Sepmeyer Room C ratios mentioned in this AVS discussion. Hopefully that those demensions will suit me well to address/avoid any potential room modes.

I want to say budget is UNLIMITED! But... Let's be realistic. The above referenced commercial offerings are rated to max out around 137db. The most expensive of the three are the Jub's at about $10,500 for the LCR setup I am looking for. Honestly, if this exercise is only going to potentially get me another 3db of output and cost me more than the Jub's I think I should just throw in the cards now... So let's cap the budget at that for now.

One thing I love about you DIY types, you never b!tch about "too loud." Do I know how loud 137db is? Yes... I do. Do I realize that 99.999999% of the worlds population would never ever want to listen to music at that volume... Yes... I do.

I equate this to having a 1,000hp daily driver. While I may only open it up occasionally, it's nice to know it's on tap anytime I want to play...

I've been lurking here for awhile and I see some of the guys in the DIY section have the same mentality. Sometimes you just want to come home and geeeetttt stupid with it!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, to be honest I don't know if you can make better(subjective) but I know you can probably DIY the same performance for much less. I don't know for sure as I have never heard the JTR or Klipsch speakers which are both their Top performers. I have owned their lesser brothers. I love my arrays more than any other speaker I have owned but I bet I can even get them better but I have not tried them yet.

Do you have a picture of your arrays you can post on this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Your prices are wrong, 4722N's are about $1100 per, and that's with the network. I used to be a huge Klipsch fan, but IMO the JBL's easily surpass them.

Jesus man... I know specs don't tell the full story, but $1,100 for the JBL seems incredible. I just did a quick google search and found like $1,640 or so. I mean, $1,100 seems like it takes bargin output to awhole other level! It makes me wonder what something like the JBL 5472 would cost? 142db peak seems like it might be the next step up? Sooooo tall, but it's a real beaute!

Have you ever personally heard the Jubilee's or are you basing your comment off of the previous Klipsch gear you've owned?


Why would you argue with someone like Notynt? He doesn't seem like the type to post anything without being able to back it up and I definitely don't see how he could mistake what he actually paid for his JBL's. Usually safe to say people with thousands of posts on a particular forum kinda know what they are talking about... Maybe that's just a subjective observation on my part though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

or you could diy something like scott is working on, though i'm not sure there is even a category for that one. :-) iirc, george lucas has something like that in his 300 seat stag theater.

I don't think Scott would appreciate me stealing his design. They do look incredible though! Right up my alley for sure.
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post #10 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Room is still in design phase as well, but since I have a fresh slate I am going to reachout to you guys (most likely in the dedicated room design section) for room design advice at some point. I might even reach out to Dennis and his team for a design and literally build around said design from the ground up. Just for discussions sake let's say the room dimensions are going to be about 33'L x 23'W x 14'H. Those are the closest "round" numbers to get me to Sepmeyer Room C ratios mentioned in this AVS discussion. Hopefully that those demensions will suit me well to address/avoid any potential room modes.
I want to say budget is UNLIMITED! But... Let's be realistic. The above referenced commercial offerings are rated to max out around 137db. The most expensive of the three are the Jub's at about $10,500 for the LCR setup I am looking for. Honestly, if this exercise is only going to potentially get me another 3db of output and cost me more than the Jub's I think I should just throw in the cards now... So let's cap the budget at that for now.
One thing I love about you DIY types, you never b!tch about "too loud." Do I know how loud 137db is? Yes... I do. Do I realize that 99.999999% of the worlds population would never ever want to listen to music at that volume... Yes... I do.
I equate this to having a 1,000hp daily driver. While I may only open it up occasionally, it's nice to know it's on tap anytime I want to play...
I've been lurking here for awhile and I see some of the guys in the DIY section have the same mentality. Sometimes you just want to come home and geeeetttt stupid with it!!!!

I knew I liked this guy. K, so obviously this will be a large room. You could get away with a smaller high sensitivity LCR speaker like the SEOS LTD02 has mentioned or something like Wayne Parham's 4pi speaker. Judging from your tone, you are interested in more, much more so these would be the minimum and might want to consider something larger and more capable. Now you are where I started at a couple years ago...

This is system one way or another will need to be larger than those. Think at least two 15's, 18's or 21's just for the bass. Sealed, vented, horn-loaded....you figure that part out. The overall sensititivity will need to be high. I'd say shoot for ~100dB or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post


I don't think Scott would appreciate me stealing his design. They do look incredible though! Right up my alley for sure.

Ha! I seriously triple-dog dare ANYONE to attempt to build a copy of my upcoming system and I highly endorse that one should. biggrin.gif


I actually have a modifed version of that picture now. Yeah, I keep changing things. tongue.gif

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post #11 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 05:13 PM
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scott, you raise an interesting point. he could go for something like the seos/td12m for the mid-tops passively crossed from top to mid (or active). THEN actively cross that cab to a pair of td18h's around 300hz or so for the low mids/upper bass dow to his 80hz crossover point target. that would get him 101db 1w1m from each speaker in that mid-bass region from lambda drivers with next to no inductance. the only problem might be that the system would be so damn clean that it wouldn't sound nearly as loud as it actually is playing and then there goes his hearing. what? :-)

"I actually have a modifed version of that picture now. Yeah, I keep changing things."

what did you decide to change up scott?

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post #12 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 07:27 PM
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i just thought of something else to make your decision that much harder...

yorkville unity u215...

$1500+/-

horn designed by tom danley. while the dual 15's (18sounds 15nd930's which are extremely tight (low qe) and efficient (98db1w1m+ per driver); read hard hitting) the secret password to their midrange clarity is: phase. :-) the horn is optimized to carry most of the midrange and treble from what is called a point source. in the ideal world, speakers would be infinitely capable and infinitely small, i.e. point sources. but reality kicks in and different designs attempt to best balance the tradeoffs. this particular horn has midrange drivers firing into it along with the compression drivers so the amount of sound that can be kept in "point source" is down to something like 300hz or so (i forget the exact crossover point).



more details here: http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=38&id=268&type=29

if you want to minimize group delay from the mains to the subs, you could seal the ports and cross to your subs 2nd order at around 100hz.


----

"Bought my 4722N's from full compass for $1065 each."

out of curiosity, i asked another company for a quote (today) and they came in a little over a hundred more than that, so definitely that's the ballpark. apparently jbl requests not advertising prices below a certain point.

edit: ton to tom

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post #13 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 07:37 PM
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With the budget and performance goals you have, I would look into the TAD 2001 driver for the mids and highs, coupled with a high end horn, not sure which would be best. I would at the very least, go with duel LMS-Ultras in the bottom for the lows. That TAD driver, cost a whole hell of a lot more than I could ever afford. But it is widely regarded as the top of the line compression driver on the market.
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post #14 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 07:38 PM
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All good choices, LTD.

John, PM sent.

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post #15 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 09:03 PM
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10-4 scott.

i'm kind of surprised that mk hasn't experimented with the u215's...or heck sh50/60's for the win?

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post #16 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 09:42 PM
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I think I can top all of you, meet Roomis-SPL-Maximus, my loudest speaker design yet. biggrin.gif:D:D:D




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post #17 of 76 Old 10-26-2012, 09:50 PM
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If I could shoe horn a set of Yorkville's into my room, I would have been looking for a used set of those a long time ago. That speaker has always held my interest. Along with the other commercial offerings the OPer has listed, I would have to list Mark Seaton's Cats.

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post #18 of 76 Old 10-27-2012, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

And you are wrong. They are actually a little more than $1700.
It's the 3722N's that are a little more than $1100, of which I have 2. Please, if you know where to get 4722N's for that cheap, do tell.

Though it's been covered already, OP is even using my picture of a JBL 4722N. I've posted info on where to get them cheap many times. The 3677 is also a great bargain around $500.

Either call Full Compass and ask for a quote, or call this guy:
Quote:

- Zach Craigle

Performance Audio
2456 South West Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84115
USA

Phone: 800.771.8330 / 801.466.3196 x 153
Fax: 801.484.1538
Email: zcraigle _at_ performanceaudio.com
Web: http://www.performanceaudio.com
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post #19 of 76 Old 10-27-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Have you ever personally heard the Jubilee's or are you basing your comment off of the previous Klipsch gear you've owned?

I've heard original Jubilees, modified jubilees (crossover and not sure what else), and some DIY jubilees. I just wasn't terribly fond of the way the horns influenced the bottom end. I went on a horn kick for a bit, but came back to direct radiators. I don't know what CD's were in use on those either, but the highs seemed a little overbearing as well. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great speaker, I'm just comparing it to other high end commercial stuff at this point. I also can't listen to most Klipsch speakers for an extended period of time without getting ear fatigue. I think that's from the high end output.

Also, speakers like JBL 5742, in my opinion, are way too large/spread to put in a normal room. You need some distance between yourself and that speaker.

I tried to avoid being like, OMG SPEAKER ____ IS THE BEST... I can give my opinions, but that's all they are. If you are serious about this, you need to demo the speakers. Take notes. Find somewhere you can listen to things on similar setups with the same audio track back to back if possible. You will forget how things sound between demos. Also, a room will color systems differently, at this level, you may end up hearing more room than speaker. Proper EQ is necessary, and having a speaker with great directivity helps here as well. Room treatments are also mandatory if you're going to take this seriously. They will generally make more of a difference than a speaker, as long as the speakers you're talking about are performing without any issues.
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post #20 of 76 Old 10-27-2012, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i just thought of something else to make your decision that much harder...
yorkville unity u215...
$1500+/-


horn designed by tom danley. while the dual 15's (18sounds 15nd930's which are extremely tight (low qe) and efficient (98db1w1m+ per driver); read hard hitting) the secret password to their midrange clarity is: phase. :-) the horn is optimized to carry most of the midrange and treble from what is called a point source. in the ideal world, speakers would be infinitely capable and infinitely small, i.e. point sources. but reality kicks in and different designs attempt to best balance the tradeoffs. this particular horn has midrange drivers firing into it along with the compression drivers so the amount of sound that can be kept in "point source" is down to something like 300hz or so (i forget the exact crossover point).

Man... So it's seeming more and more like it would be in my best interest to just go with a commercial offering vs attempting DIY. So many options...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

With the budget and performance goals you have, I would look into the TAD 2001 driver for the mids and highs, coupled with a high end horn, not sure which would be best. I would at the very least, go with duel LMS-Ultras in the bottom for the lows. That TAD driver, cost a whole hell of a lot more than I could ever afford. But it is widely regarded as the top of the line compression driver on the market.

I'll have to look this up later. Any link you could provide would be great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Though it's been covered already, OP is even using my picture of a JBL 4722N. I've posted info on where to get them cheap many times. The 3677 is also a great bargain around $500.
Either call Full Compass and ask for a quote, or call this guy:

Thank you Notynt. I was thinking about PM'ing you to ask if it was cool to use your pic, but I noticed a few other sites used your pics and I saw you give your permission to those guys... I yook a chance. I'd be proud of my setup as well if I were you. My hats off to you.

Thanks for posting up the info for your hookup with the JBL gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I've heard original Jubilees, modified jubilees (crossover and not sure what else), and some DIY jubilees. I just wasn't terribly fond of the way the horns influenced the bottom end. I went on a horn kick for a bit, but came back to direct radiators. I don't know what CD's were in use on those either, but the highs seemed a little overbearing as well. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great speaker, I'm just comparing it to other high end commercial stuff at this point. I also can't listen to most Klipsch speakers for an extended period of time without getting ear fatigue. I think that's from the high end output.
Also, speakers like JBL 5742, in my opinion, are way too large/spread to put in a normal room. You need some distance between yourself and that speaker.
I tried to avoid being like, OMG SPEAKER ____ IS THE BEST... I can give my opinions, but that's all they are. If you are serious about this, you need to demo the speakers. Take notes. Find somewhere you can listen to things on similar setups with the same audio track back to back if possible. You will forget how things sound between demos. Also, a room will color systems differently, at this level, you may end up hearing more room than speaker. Proper EQ is necessary, and having a speaker with great directivity helps here as well. Room treatments are also mandatory if you're going to take this seriously. They will generally make more of a difference than a speaker, as long as the speakers you're talking about are performing without any issues.

Understood. Thank you for the insight.

I've owned the Klipsch RF-7's in the past, so I understand your comment about listening fatigue. Ihave a demo setup for some Jubilees here in the near future, but haven't heard many other commercial offerings in a HT environment. Man, what I wouldn't give to have all of the aforementioned commercial offerings in one location to demo them back-to-back.

I'm all over the room acoustics and I'm strongly considering the RS20i for EQ/processing duties.

One thing I hate seeing with these $1M Home Theaters is how much focus is put into form vs. function. Another thing I have noticed about myself (personality trait) is that I tejd to he satisfied for a brief amout of time, but it almost seems inevidible that I adjust my expectations and shortly find myself wanting more. Obviously my current plans are going to require a very large investment, but I think by making the investment upfront I'm going to hopefully squash the upgraditus bug indefinitely...

As far as the JBL 5742 is concerned, are you saying that my 15 person 10,000ft^3 room isn't going to be large enough to take advantage of those beasts? 15ft away isn't going to far enough?

Keep the suggestions coming guys.
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"One thing I hate seeing with these $1M Home Theaters is how much focus is put into form vs. function."

that is because it is simply not possible to spend any where near that much money on performance. even paul's octagon, which may be one of the best around here doesn't come within a fraction of that kind of money.
http://advanceddefinition.com/The%20Octagon.htm

not's system, with which you are familiar, is another off-the-charts performer and that one is $15-20k (guessing). that would leave $980,000 in the budget. :-)

there was a guy who built an 'ultimate' system over at lansing heritage (ah, jack bouska). for a 20 to 20k system, i can't see how one beats it. i'm not sure if he has $15k in it. he needs another $5k for subs to keep pace for sub 20, but even then...
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?12126-DIY-Axially-symmetric-oblate-spheroid-CD-waveguides-in-solid-Oak

scott doesn't even have a beer budget and look what he is putting together. :-)

"Another thing I have noticed about myself (personality trait) is that I tend to be satisfied for a brief amout of time, but it almost seems inevidible that I adjust my expectations and shortly find myself wanting more."

once you have >130db capability, you won't want (nor could you take) anymore. :-)

since you have the money, try:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

four of these in each corner loaded up with a measly 500 watts per driver and you will be well over 130db everywhere for movies and 140db+ for music for something like $5k.

pick your favorite mains, like 'not suggested, and you are still under budget. you may end up wanting different, but you won't ever need more.

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post #22 of 76 Old 10-27-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Man... So it's seeming more and more like it would be in my best interest to just go with a commercial offering vs attempting DIY. So many options...

I'll tell you something.... do you want a cool project or do you simply want a finished product ready to go? You can get what you need going either commercial or DIY. DIY may not necessarily be cheaper too. You can go overkill with certain products and make something just as expensive. Likewise you could go super budget and nip off bits of cash here and there like I have getting lots of stuff used.

So... if you want this now and and don't mind spending a large bill... you have many choices out there. If you want a big DIY project that may test your nerves... go all out, man!
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"One thing I hate seeing with these $1M Home Theaters is how much focus is put into form vs. function."

scott doesn't even have a beer budget and look what he is putting together. :-)

Ha! Really. Gotta have nerves of steel and patience like a Buddhist Monk to do what I'm doing. tongue.gif
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"Another thing I have noticed about myself (personality trait) is that I tend to be satisfied for a brief amout of time, but it almost seems inevidible that I adjust my expectations and shortly find myself wanting more."
once you have >130db capability, you won't want (nor could you take) anymore. :-)

This is the trick. Go WAY overkill and way beyond what your expectations are. I see it all the time. "Oh yeah, I'll never need more than two subwoofers. Two? That's insane!" Fast forward six months. "Yup...building four more subwoofers." Lol!

Same thing with speakers. I am the same way, I will get bored with something real quick so what I did with my design is to go so beyond overkill that I won't ever want or need more.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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Man... So it's seeming more and more like it would be in my best interest to just go with a commercial offering vs attempting DIY. So many options...
There are not a lot of existing DIY options to work so well in a large space would be more the point. Unless you can design something yourself then it isn't an easy way to go. Where DIY will really shine for you is making the subs.

I use the Yorkville U215s as my mains. For the money you are prepared to spend and for the size of room, I would use them as LCR and rears. You wont regret it. To step up from the Yorkville think about the SH50 as already suggested.

Another option that ticks quite a few boxes is the QSC KW153. It's a 1000w powered speaker which makes it an easy solution but as all have said,. you would need to listen to it. TD18 setup 001.jpg 726k .jpg file
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post #24 of 76 Old 10-27-2012, 08:38 PM
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So a $10k budget for 3 mains and enough left over for a RS20i?

This is what I would do:

Mains: 3 Danley SM-96's
Processor: RS20i
Amps for mains: Something big and expensive...frankly this part is of little significance with enough power IMO
Surrounds: Depends on your room...maybe 4 SM-100s
Subs: Go DIY with as much sealed displacement as possible...or just a bunch of Seaton Submersives

With this budget, the only reason to do DIY is for the enjoyment of designing and building something yourself. In that case, you could do an upgraded 4722 substituting a Radian 951 with a beryllium diaphragm and 2226s or TD15Ms for woofers. This would run around $3k/speaker. You would need help with the crossover.

So when are you going to drop the coin?
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post #25 of 76 Old 10-28-2012, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Before the SH-50 recommendation, the extent I knew of Danley was their DTS-10. Dear god do they have some insane products.

I'm assuming all would agree that the Jerico JH-90 would probably be overkill...
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"I'm assuming all would agree that the Jerico JH-90 would probably be overkill..."

yeah, as much as anybody loves overkill, that isn't the right tool for the job.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #27 of 76 Old 10-28-2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

So a $10k budget for 3 mains and enough left over for a RS20i?
This is what I would do:
Mains: 3 Danley SM-96's
Processor: RS20i
Amps for mains: Something big and expensive...frankly this part is of little significance with enough power IMO
Surrounds: Depends on your room...maybe 4 SM-100s
Subs: Go DIY with as much sealed displacement as possible...or just a bunch of Seaton Submersives
With this budget, the only reason to do DIY is for the enjoyment of designing and building something yourself. In that case, you could do an upgraded 4722 substituting a Radian 951 with a beryllium diaphragm and 2226s or TD15Ms for woofers. This would run around $3k/speaker. You would need help with the crossover.
So when are you going to drop the coin?

As someone who used to have a full Danley setup I have to agree with coctostan. If I were to rebuild my system today and had enough coin I would do the following:

Danley SM-96 x7 ($2800 each) You can order them powered if you want for $1500 (I think) up charge per speaker. I believe its the same DSP and Amps that Mark Seaton uses in his Catalyst.
You can also Purchase 3 of the SM-96 and then 4 of the SM-100
Seaton Submersives x( Buy them until you have desired level of bass) Or as many JTR Sealed Captivators as you need.
Amps: I would do powered speakers if you can afford too. My old system used to run off of 4 EP4k's and sounded fantastic. I don't know a lot about amps so I would go with whatever the guys here recommend.

Processor: If you want to save a few bucks and have a fantastic learning experience I would use an HTPC running JRiver and Audiolense in conjunction with a Pro 8 channel DAC. There are a few people around that employ this setup and it has almost limitless capabilities. If not, go buy the RS20i, I am sure its amazing.

Having the same capable speaker as LCR and surrounds is an amazing experience. Having 7xDanley SM-96 gives you more options for placement due to having your choice of 60 or 90 degrees of Directivity just by rotating the speaker. I would not mix subs, just purchase or build the same sealed sub until you have the level of bass you are satisfied with.

Forin
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post #28 of 76 Old 10-29-2012, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Before the SH-50 recommendation, the extent I knew of Danley was their DTS-10. Dear god do they have some insane products.
I'm assuming all would agree that the Jerico JH-90 would probably be overkill...

I think the J3 (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/jericho/j3/might) might be better suited in the home than a J90. I think base price is around $25,000 per speaker and it can bet setup as powered with DSP for "a" price. I have heard both J1 and J2, and they really did sound fantastic. I could not imagine the destruction a couple of Jericho's could induce in a home setting! eek.gifeek.gif





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post #29 of 76 Old 10-29-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"One thing I hate seeing with these $1M Home Theaters is how much focus is put into form vs. function."
that is because it is simply not possible to spend any where near that much money on performance. even paul's octagon, which may be one of the best around here doesn't come within a fraction of that kind of money.
http://advanceddefinition.com/The%20Octagon.htm
not's system, with which you are familiar, is another off-the-charts performer and that one is $15-20k (guessing). that would leave $980,000 in the budget. :-)

Let me re-frame my comment. "I hate seeing these $1M Home Theaters that can easily be trumped (from an audio perspective) by a $30K system, such as Notynt's." I guess I'd just like to see a $1M theater with audio performance on par with the fit and finish.

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

there was a guy who built an 'ultimate' system over at lansing heritage (ah, jack bouska). for a 20 to 20k system, i can't see how one beats it. i'm not sure if he has $15k in it. he needs another $5k for subs to keep pace for sub 20, but even then...

Jack's build is beautiful! Putting those master pieces behind a AT screen would seem like a crime in and of itself. I was skimming through it and I think I remember reading that they start to compress at some where around 125db.

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scott doesn't even have a beer budget and look what he is putting together. :-)
"Another thing I have noticed about myself (personality trait) is that I tend to be satisfied for a brief amout of time, but it almost seems inevidible that I adjust my expectations and shortly find myself wanting more."
once you have >130db capability, you won't want (nor could you take) anymore. :-)


130db is serious. I think read somewhere that Notynt's at 130db flat down to like 10Hz... Might need to verify from the source though. Again, I go back to the car analogy. Who really needs to hit 210mph on the Autobahn? How often would you actually have the opportunity to open it up? Not often, but when you get that wild hair, it's nice to know it's on tap.

I've seen/heard ~130db (measured through Omnimic) on a few occasions and, while it was loud, it didn't make me want tap out. I would NOT subject myself to those levels for extended periods of time, but I still felt as though I would have liked more...More...MORE!!! Oh, and while I don't remember the specifics, I think the system I am referring to started to roll off at like 22Hz or something. So, I've yet to experience one of those "flat to single digits" I've heard so much about in the DIY community.

I would be thrilled with like 130db flat down to about 3Hz... We all know it's doable, but not easily obtainable. Trust me, I'm tracking in regards to what it would take on the low-end to accomplish such a feat. Double Not? Quad Not, Maybe? I'm not shooting for realistic. I'm shooting for the stars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

since you have the money, try:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472
four of these in each corner loaded up with a measly 500 watts per driver and you will be well over 130db everywhere for movies and 140db+ for music for something like $5k.
pick your favorite mains, like 'not suggested, and you are still under budget. you may end up wanting different, but you won't ever need more.

16subs... NICE! This does seem like the most economical approach. Those Dayton's aren't nearly as pretty as the LMS-U's.

Haha, j/k. I try not to let stuff like that influnce my purchasing decisions and again, I am planning on having everything concealed/hidden.
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post #30 of 76 Old 10-29-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I'll tell you something.... do you want a cool project or do you simply want a finished product ready to go? You can get what you need going either commercial or DIY. DIY may not necessarily be cheaper too. You can go overkill with certain products and make something just as expensive. Likewise you could go super budget and nip off bits of cash here and there like I have getting lots of stuff used.

Aaaahhhh... Decisions, decisions... I think my primary concern would be to waste all of this time on doing DIY only to have a commercial offering offer similar performance at a simlar price point. Yeah, the wife would MUCH rather me drop the coin upfront vs. spending countless hours goind DIY.

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So... if you want this now and and don't mind spending a large bill... you have many choices out there. If you want a big DIY project that may test your nerves... go all out, man!
Ha! Really. Gotta have nerves of steel and patience like a Buddhist Monk to do what I'm doing. tongue.gif
This is the trick. Go WAY overkill and way beyond what your expectations are. I see it all the time. "Oh yeah, I'll never need more than two subwoofers. Two? That's insane!" Fast forward six months. "Yup...building four more subwoofers." Lol!
Same thing with speakers. I am the same way, I will get bored with something real quick so what I did with my design is to go so beyond overkill that I won't ever want or need more.

Sounds like you and I are on the same wave length Mr. Sims. Getting bored always leads to the "upgraditus" bug. Having an asinine amount of headroom should hopefully put that to rest. If I get bored, I'd just like to push it a little bit further for that renewed vigor we tend to get when we upgrade to more capable gear. So, if 130db gave me that feeling for a few months, once I got bored, I just push it to 133db. Few months later if I feel the need, I'll just push it to 136db...

It would be nice to say... Ok, I don't want to go any further. That's enough. I tap-out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

There are not a lot of existing DIY options to work so well in a large space would be more the point. Unless you can design something yourself then it isn't an easy way to go. Where DIY will really shine for you is making the subs.

I'm all over the subs. High power, high displacement in multiples...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I use the Yorkville U215s as my mains. For the money you are prepared to spend and for the size of room, I would use them as LCR and rears. You wont regret it. To step up from the Yorkville think about the SH50 as already suggested.
Another option that ticks quite a few boxes is the QSC KW153. It's a 1000w powered speaker which makes it an easy solution but as all have said,. you would need to listen to it. TD18 setup 001.jpg 726k .jpg file

How would you compare your Yorkville U215's vs. the QSC KW153?

Also, I've noticed that a few have mentioned that an upgrade from the Yorkville U215 would be the Danley SH-50. While I am fully aware that the specs alone do not tell the full story, but comparing the specs side-by-side, it appears as though the U215 is more powerful, wider fq range and can maintain higher output. Why would the SH-50 be considered an upgrade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

So a $10k budget for 3 mains and enough left over for a RS20i?
This is what I would do:
Mains: 3 Danley SM-96's
Processor: RS20i
Amps for mains: Something big and expensive...frankly this part is of little significance with enough power IMO
Surrounds: Depends on your room...maybe 4 SM-100s
Subs: Go DIY with as much sealed displacement as possible...or just a bunch of Seaton Submersives

With so many offerings from Danley, it's opened my eyes to SO much more on the commercial side. Craziness!
So would you go with the SM-96's because you have heard them in person? Why would you choose those over the SH-50?

How much do the SubM's go for these days? $2,500 a piece? I could buy almost 10 of the Dayton's that LTD mentioned previously for the price of one SubM. Two LMS-U's with one of those Clone amps for about the price of a SubM. I guess what I am getting at is that I am definitely planning on going DIY from a sub stand point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

With this budget, the only reason to do DIY is for the enjoyment of designing and building something yourself. In that case, you could do an upgraded 4722 substituting a Radian 951 with a beryllium diaphragm and 2226s or TD15Ms for woofers. This would run around $3k/speaker. You would need help with the crossover.
So when are you going to drop the coin?

As mentioned in my first post, still in the planning phases. I'm actually still finalizing the room details as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post

Processor: If you want to save a few bucks and have a fantastic learning experience I would use an HTPC running JRiver and Audiolense in conjunction with a Pro 8 channel DAC. There are a few people around that employ this setup and it has almost limitless capabilities. If not, go buy the RS20i, I am sure its amazing.

Geez man. I'm kinda the type of persion to want to smash things when they don't work like they should. Considering I am having computer problems at this moment, I think I might have to do baby steps into the HTPC realm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post

I would not mix subs, just purchase or build the same sealed sub until you have the level of bass you are satisfied with.
Forin

Sealed will be the way I go for sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post

I think the J3 (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/jericho/j3/might) might be better suited in the home than a J90. I think base price is around $25,000 per speaker and it can bet setup as powered with DSP for "a" price. I have heard both J1 and J2, and they really did sound fantastic. I could not imagine the destruction a couple of Jericho's could induce in a home setting! eek.gifeek.gif
Forin

What!!! $25K per speaker? $75K for LCR! That might be a bit out of the price range. My only real question (for those who have heard them in person) is if the Jerico sounds as good at low volume as it does at higher volumes? Jerico in a HT environment sounds beyond fun....
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