DIY speakers with built in subwoofer? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Dr. Crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Is there a good design published for that? I am trying to keep my room as clean as possible (it's not big and quite full) and like the idea of towers like the Def Tech 8060. I also like building things myself (though speakers would be a first) and was looking at the SEOS... Has anybody came up with a design that'd include a subwoofer in a smallish footprint?
Dr. Crash is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 02:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked: 384
The base of a pair of tower speakers is not likely to be the best place acoustically in a room for a pair of subwoofers. As such, DIY creations aren't likely to put a subwoofer in a tower speaker.
Stereodude is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 03:09 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 13,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Liked: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The base of a pair of tower speakers is not likely to be the best place acoustically in a room for a pair of subwoofers. As such, DIY creations aren't likely to put a subwoofer in a tower speaker.

This has been the case of the past decade or so but I don't really agree with it anymore. I think we need more LFE sources around the room. I would build some but still have the actual subwoofer to move around. That may not be the case for our OP who is interested in a less cluttered room. If having said subwoofer where the mains are is not optimal, then that may be what he will have to deal with.

To our OP. There aren't any designs I can think of but it's really not that hard to do. The trick will be finding the right sub driver that can produce a lot of bass and fit in a small and probably narrow enclosure.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

Plan9Reloaded Co-host

Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)

https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link

http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website

Scott Simonian is online now  
post #4 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Member
 
mantha3's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cool idea!

Take a look at 4PI speakers. These are typically built to be on a stand.

You could build the 4PI exactly to spec... Go to Wayne's site and go to his forum and ask for the 4PI speaker plans. These are I think 18.5 in wide by 27in tall. You could just buy a nice 12 or 15 in sub woofer and go with a sealed or vented sub... Just extend the design taller... Say 18 - 20 in taller or so...

I think something like this could be done. You'd probably have a connect for the 4PI or other upper speaker and then another connect for the sub... OR just run a plate amp on the bottom sub part
mantha3 is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 03:26 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 13,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Liked: 631
^^^^^

Yeah, just configure and use the 4pi as usual. Use a plate amp or external amp for the 'sub stand' and simply input the LFE out to it. Only make it as tall as it needs to be. You don't want the 4pi to tower over ones head. Rather make it deeper if the extra volume is needed or not.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

Plan9Reloaded Co-host

Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)

https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link

http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website

Scott Simonian is online now  
post #6 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Dr. Crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ok, building a real subwoofer under a speaker seems like a better idea... I actually was able to listen to the Definitive Technologies 8060 (and 8040) today and did really not like them. I thought that the sound was "muddled" even with the woofer set to zero; and definitely not clean at all with any woofer. Maybe it's because I have been without bass for so long (I've been using the small mains from my Cambridge Soundworks MovieWorks II 5.1 setup)...

In contrast, I really liked the Bowers & Wilkins speakers I listened to. The 683 was much cleaner than the Def Tech to my ears, and the CM9 was even better. Maybe not twice as much money better though... I will listen to the CM5 next to the 683 to understand better what I like tone-wise and what kind of form factor would work. I am being told that the CM5 sounds as good/better as the 683. Smaller is better in my house, but I definitely want to move away from my tiny mains.

If I could make (or buy) great musical L/R for ~ 30" high and a center channel that's 14" or less high, with clear sound, I would be very happy. And for the budget of two CM5s or 683s, ($1,500---maybe $1,000 used) I think I should be able to!
Dr. Crash is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 10-26-2012, 09:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 831
did you not get the memo?



:-)

member java's interpretation of the diy seos/360/bwaslo crossover/eminence driver build coordinated by erich.

if you want to increase the cab volume a bit, no problem. fire the sub out the back, side, or bottom.

if sealed, will need some eq as sealed sub have a steep rolloff compared with ported above tuning.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #8 of 20 Old 10-27-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Dr. Crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Yes I am thinking SEOS (mostly because I feel I can get good support here about it and trough Erich's site---I am a total newbie at building/understanding speaker tech) but 1/ I feel totally unqualified right now to ask questions about it (I first need to understand it), 2/ I need to understand the whole horn thing better maybe, and 3/ Erich H's website mentions many new designs coming over the next few weeks (and other threads mention designs from "well known designers") so I figure that's worth a few questions too.


So if I liked the clean sound of the B&W, how would that drive the kind of DIY designs I am looking at?
Dr. Crash is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 10-27-2012, 02:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 831
"So if I liked the clean sound of the B&W, how would that drive the kind of DIY designs I am looking at?"

b&w takes the other approach to good sound--they try to shoot for being as omnidirectional as possible. in an untreated home room, this will give a very ambient sound as reflections are bouncing off of everything all over the place. this might be the best for something like classical music. however, it is the worst for speech intelligibility. all those reflections make it very difficult to hear what is being said. as an exagerated example, if you have ever been in a large stone cathedral, it is almost impossible to hear what the person at the front is saying because there are so many reflections and such long decay. that can be overcome with a ton of room treatments or by using horns. horns just keep the sound from splashing off all the surfaces before it gets to your ears. as a result, some of the ambience is lost, but in return speech is super clear and imaging is about as good as it gets. for movies, speech intelligibity is paramount.

the second issue is one of sheer spl, not that you will always listen at high spl. high sensitivity systems have a much easier time recreating dynamics, so transients such as gunshots or even crescendos during classical concerts will sound much closer to lifelike.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #10 of 20 Old 10-27-2012, 05:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
Face2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 41
I wouldn't say as omni as possible since they cross from their mid to tweeter kind of high, to the point that it's practically beaming. Plus some models have peaky treble: http://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Mike
Face2 is online now  
post #11 of 20 Old 10-27-2012, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Dr. Crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
If anything I would have thought that being more omnidirectional would be a source of muddling. So to be clear, what I meant is that on musical tracks, the B&W seemed to give me a better separation between the instruments and the singer's voice, while the DefTech "collapsed" them together and did not sound as clear/clean. Does that make sense? I was well centered between left and right speakers in each case (a the point of an equilateral triangle with me being the third "corner").

In my everyday listening situation, I will be off the speakers axis (basically in line with the speakers, as on Left, Right, Dr. Crash). That is because the speakers will be flanking the screen in the living room and I spend a lot of time cooking itn the kitchen. I am going to put some basic in ceiling speakers in the kitchen for that,

So that leaves the nicer speakers for movie watching and "I actually have time to sit and listen" music, when reading. In this case I would be well placed WRT the speakers. Would a horn design be good then for both music and movies? It seems like it. What are commercial horn designs I could try to listen to in my area (Seattle)?
Dr. Crash is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 12:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 831
face makes some good points as to b&w's success with thier approach.

the deftech employs a woofer and two passive radiators in place of a port. you could do the same...if you wanted to.


Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #13 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 01:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,898
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 831
"What are commercial horn designs I could try to listen to in my area (Seattle)?"

you could try to find a jbl dealer with some k2's



or you could go to just about any commercial theater and take a peak behind the screen. :-)

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #14 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 03:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 142
I personally think it would be really cool to copy the Def Tech design with regards to using a built in, powered sub, only differences being that you could use a high quality horn for the tweeters and mid range drivers, and no speakers on the rear. I would assume this to be.a pretty complicated build though.
Martycool007 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 08:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
Face2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Crash View Post

If anything I would have thought that being more omnidirectional would be a source of muddling
Monopole, not omni...

I've heard Deftech's bipole designs in a few different rooms. They can sound like a total disaster in some rooms and ok in others, but in general, I experienced that they didn't have much "focus" compared to a traditional monopole.

Mike
Face2 is online now  
post #16 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 08:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The base of a pair of tower speakers is not likely to be the best place acoustically in a room for a pair of subwoofers. As such, DIY creations aren't likely to put a subwoofer in a tower speaker.

Generally true if you're only using one or two subs. But people interested in high fidelity bass reproduction generally use more than two subs. (Some rooms can do just fine with two subs blended into the mains.)

Wayne Parham (Pi Speakers guy) has some useful ideas about about using flanking subs as part of a multisub system. The main benefit is that the flanking subs can play higher, so you can work on floor bounce issues by blending the flanking subs and mains, a la Allison. (The NHT 3.3 did something similar, albeit passively.)

But the best way to do flanking subs, IMO, is not to make big tower cabinets with built-in subs, but to make "standmount" speakers and have the flanking subs in separate identical-looking cabinets, which can be used as stands. The advantages are that they're easier to move, one can still have three identical front mains with just two flanking subs, one can limit vibration to the top cabinet by using Sorbothane spacers, and one can fine-tune the in-room response by experimenting with sub firing angle.

My currently-in-the-works mains are following that route. There will be two or three additional subs in the room, depending on what's needed to smooth out response.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 
DS-21 is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 05:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The base of a pair of tower speakers is not likely to be the best place acoustically in a room for a pair of subwoofers. As such, DIY creations aren't likely to put a subwoofer in a tower speaker.

This has been the case of the past decade or so but I don't really agree with it anymore. I think we need more LFE sources around the room. I would build some but still have the actual subwoofer to move around. That may not be the case for our OP who is interested in a less cluttered room. If having said subwoofer where the mains are is not optimal, then that may be what he will have to deal with.

To our OP. There aren't any designs I can think of but it's really not that hard to do. The trick will be finding the right sub driver that can produce a lot of bass and fit in a small and probably narrow enclosure.



These are my favorite speakers for a "compact" speaker. Right now they are connected to my PC as I do not have room for a dedicated subwoofer type of system. They were designed for use at a close to wall location. They sort of make their own corner no matter where you place them near a wall.


J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 10-28-2012, 05:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The base of a pair of tower speakers is not likely to be the best place acoustically in a room for a pair of subwoofers. As such, DIY creations aren't likely to put a subwoofer in a tower speaker.


That comment is way too general. Bass frequencies go all the way up to about 180 Hz.

The problem area for bass in my room is below 50 Hz!
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 10-29-2012, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Dr. Crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Not DIY but hand made. The Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 seems interesting too (a bit pricy?)http://www.soundfieldaudio.net/Products.html
Dr. Crash is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 10-31-2012, 10:55 AM
Senior Member
 
SilentJ20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Graham, WA
Posts: 257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The WMTMW towers in my sig are a good build. The dual 8 inch woofers in each are tuned to 30Hz. They're kind of wide, but they sound great.
SilentJ20 is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off