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post #121 of 747 Old 12-26-2012, 03:42 AM
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This project looks really cool! subscribed!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #122 of 747 Old 12-27-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Status Update: 50% of the hat channel and 15% of the soundboard is done.


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post #123 of 747 Old 12-27-2012, 12:54 PM
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Wow, thanks for all the pics and videos. This has been fun to follow. You better always keep some sound going in this room or it will be so quiet that you go crazy.
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post #124 of 747 Old 12-27-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Well they say that 45 minutes is the Guinness Record (unofficially) but that is in both a: 100% sound-proof and 100% sound-absorbent room.
Mine is only ~25% sound-absorbent and only ~90% sound-proof (If I had to come up with some metrics for it).
Which doesn't seem like a huge difference... but that's on a log-scale, and is the difference between a $20k room and $500k room. eek.gif
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2124581/The-worlds-quietest-place-chamber-Orfield-Laboratories.html

But I'd like to think that I can "withstand" the monk-like silence; guess I'll find out the hard way soon enough... biggrin.gif

You only have 5 senses, and sitting in this room with the lights turned off would reduce you down to just one: "feeling".
(That's assuming you're not eating anything to activate the taste and smell senses, which isn't an absurd assumption to make.)
I guess those floaty saltwater deprivation tanks that people use would actually be nearer to zero; and so your ears and eyes being to hallucinate, additionally your brain has natural hallucinogenic chemicals it releases, such as DMT.

and soon enough your tripping out on rainbow colored Cheshire Cat's that are jumping over the moon as they bite at it because you believe it is made out of a tofu named Oprah. LOL
Groovy man... groovy tongue.gif
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post #125 of 747 Old 12-27-2012, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Status Update: 90% of the hat channel is done and 90% of the soundboard is done. Roughly 1225lbs added today.
DW layer #1 starts tomorrow morning.




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post #126 of 747 Old 12-28-2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: air conditioning - thought of packaged systems? Wall mounted with a tiny fan for circulation - only hot and cold water travel through the walls to an outdoor heat pump.

Something like a Mitsubishi PKA http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/382152/p%20series_3_11-r_pages.pdf
Or a Trane 4M: http://www.trane.com/residential/products/ductless/mini-split
Or Toshiba/Carrier ones: http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/heating-and-cooling/ductless-systems/

I've used ceiling ones by Carrier. They do great in cooling a CT scanner equipment room biggrin.gif The Toshiba/Carrier systems can go down to the 26 dB range for fan noise.
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post #127 of 747 Old 12-28-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Status Update: 90% of DW layer-1 is done. ~2900lbs of material was added to the walls today.



Here you can see the hat channel in action, this gives an extra 1 inch space, and once the second layer is on, supporting ~1.7inches of material. Roughly 5.6lbs per square foot of mass for the inner wall, I figure.


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Originally Posted by scorpio516 View Post

Re: air conditioning - thought of packaged systems? Wall mounted with a tiny fan for circulation - only hot and cold water travel through the walls to an outdoor heat pump.
Something like a Mitsubishi PKA http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/382152/p%20series_3_11-r_pages.pdf
Or a Trane 4M: http://www.trane.com/residential/products/ductless/mini-split
Or Toshiba/Carrier ones: http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/heating-and-cooling/ductless-systems/
I've used ceiling ones by Carrier. They do great in cooling a CT scanner equipment room biggrin.gif The Toshiba/Carrier systems can go down to the 26 dB range for fan noise.

Those look cool, I'll have to look into those more.
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post #128 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Status Update: Nice and quick, no loading and unloading of guns. biggrin.gif
GreenGluing starts this morning (with the second layer of DW of course).

32oz per sheet, basically two of these full, smeared out with a puddy knife.
This stuff has the consistency of unbaked key-lime pie stuffing, thick enough to not run off the sheet.



Test sample:


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post #129 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 09:26 AM
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Would like to hear your honest impressions of the green glue. Some people have said it doesn't make much difference. I am planning on using it in my theater build. Probably 1-2 tubes per sheet. Funny, I initially thought it was actually glue and that you didn't' have to screw it in like the first layer. Maybe green GOO is a better name for it.
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post #130 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Would like to hear your honest impressions of the green glue. Some people have said it doesn't make much difference.
Unless he builds two identical rooms, one using it and one not, there's no way to make that judgement. IMO it may do something, but it won't do much, especially considering all the other features of the room. Where it would make the most sense is if you're adding a second layer of rock to an existing room, and having the two layers connected with adhesive in the spans between the studs would make a difference compared to not. But whether it would work better than regular construction adhesive would require testing under controlled conditions to confirm. Nothing on the company site meets that criteria.

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post #131 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Would like to hear your honest impressions of the green glue. Some people have said it doesn't make much difference. I am planning on using it in my theater build. Probably 1-2 tubes per sheet. Funny, I initially thought it was actually glue and that you didn't' have to screw it in like the first layer. Maybe green GOO is a better name for it.

6 hours later that small sample still hasn't dried by more than 40% eek.gif
They say it takes 7-30 days to dry, in a full wall size.
GOO indeed.
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post #132 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Unless he builds two identical rooms, one using it and one not, there's no way to make that judgement. IMO it may do something, but it won't do much, especially considering all the other features of the room. Where it would make the most sense is if you're adding a second layer of rock to an existing room, and having the two layers connected with adhesive in the spans between the studs would make a difference compared to not. But whether it would work better than regular construction adhesive would require testing under controlled conditions to confirm. Nothing on the company site meets that criteria.

I tell you what...
What I can do is play a speaker in there to an untuned radio station (whitenoise) and measure the noise blocking in db's and then add the second layer with GG and measure it again.
That would give us a maximal limit of what the product can block (RIR+HC+Rox with DD+GG), verses just a single layer(RIR+HC+Rox and only SD /wo GG). Which doesn't precisely tell you want the GreenGlue added itself... as that would require a second identical room; but it would tell you how much you could expect to gain after applying it WITH a second layer. Which is better than no metrics at all...

From what I've read about it, I would expect a 10 to 15db improvement, total sum with that extra layer in an ideal condition.
That's assuming I don't have any weak-points.
If I don't get that figure, then that tells me that I do have a weak-point, as I should gain at least 3-4db improvement (IMO) with that much added material (worst-case). Which is sort-of good, because then I can also look at beefing that up (if needed).

I will only be able to do two 8" woofers with maybe 200watts of whitenoise; how ever many db's that works out to be... as I don't think my make-shift extension cord can support a high powered sub/amp.; guess I'll find out soon enough wink.gif
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post #133 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Unless he builds two identical rooms, one using it and one not, there's no way to make that judgement. IMO it may do something, but it won't do much, especially considering all the other features of the room. Where it would make the most sense is if you're adding a second layer of rock to an existing room, and having the two layers connected with adhesive in the spans between the studs would make a difference compared to not. But whether it would work better than regular construction adhesive would require testing under controlled conditions to confirm. Nothing on the company site meets that criteria.

Actually, the Green Glue Company has tested their product against construction adhesive at the certified Orfield Laboratory. The results are quite significant.

http://www.greengluecompany.com/sites/default/files/Green_Glue_Vs_Construction_Adhesive.pdf

Green Glue is not an adhesive despite the name and its sticky characteristics.

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post #134 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok the test numbers are in, here's what I got.

The wall is roughly 11.9 inches thick right now, as follows:
Layer #1: RIR + Rox SS + HC + single 5/8's Type X (Single Door, No mudding/taping/paint, No GreenGlue, No second layer)

Ambient Noisefloor inside is <27db-A, and Ambient Noisefloor outside is ~37db-A.
With full bandwidth radio music at 90db-A inside, I got ~50db-A outside. An increase of 13db-A and a reduction of 40db-A. (This was taken from within a few feet of all 3 sides of the theater and the main entrance.)
The door was the weakest spot with an increase of 22db-A and a reduction of 31db-A
The accuracy of my test method is approximately: +-4db depending on uncontrolled conditions.

Not too shabby for the first layer.

one 1" Tweet, one 8" Mid and one 18" Pro Woofer



Now I will add the GreenGlue and second layer of 5/8's Type X... and we will see what we get biggrin.gif
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post #135 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 01:35 PM
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Could you please explain the point of the resilient channel considering that it looks to be rigid mounted, aren't they normally mounted to a decoupler of some sort?
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post #136 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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It reduces the drywall contact points with the insulation by 100% and it forces the sound to travel through a different type of material (metal vs wood vs drywall vs insulation vs air), differing materials have differing resonant frequencies and absorption rates which forces the acoustical energy to loose power converting between them, what doesn't go into the metal is forced to travel through the air gap. I went with a full hat channel with a 1" air gap which gained me another 0.4inches over the cheaper resilient channel.

You can mount it to a decoupler and that would give you better results. (How much? I have no idea...)
From what I've read from various sources and from what others have said here on AVS, decoupler won't stop much bass.
For that it is pretty much a game of adding more mass and sealing all the holes, as best as can be...

I don't really need to use them in my case, because this is a decoupled structure (room in room) already and is a dedicated building.
If it was adjacent to a bedroom in a dwelling, then yeah, you'd definitely want the decouplers.

I only have one layer of OSB on the external wall, and the described inner wall and that gives me 40db reduction already from 30hz on up.
Once I add the second door and finish sealing all the gaps with the remaining ~3500lbs of soundproofing, it should give a significant db reduction above 300hz.
I'm aiming for somewhere near an STC of 60-70 for version 1.0 of this room by the time I call it done.

I planned from the onset of (probably) needing to add an additional ~141,000lbs of cement to the walls in order to stop most of the bass (below 300hz).
Which would/will increase the cost of this room by double: $20k vs $40k. That would be version 2.0 of this room.
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post #137 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 05:02 PM
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Thanks for the detailed response.
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post #138 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a compliation of some lab metrics I was able to find online of various wall construction designs, ordered by their soundproofing capability.
Just thought I'd put this out there so that you don't have to go looking for it yourself; you can just scan down the list and pick which one best suites you and your budget.

(All DW is 5/8's Type X, All insulation is 4" R12, No GreenGlue unless specified, No soundclips unless specified)

1) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides, Not Insulated:
STC:30 R:??

2) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides, Insulated:
STC:34 R:37

3) Single Stud, Single Layer on one side, Double layer on the other side, Insulated:
STC:36 R:40

4) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides, Resilient channel one side, Not Insulated:
STC:40 R:39

5) Staggered Stud, Single Layer both sides, Not Insulated:
STC:41 R:41

6) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides, one side with MLV, Insulated:
STC:45 R:39

7) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides each with Soundboard, Insulated:
STC:46 R:47

8) Single Stud, Single Layer both sides, Resilient channel one side, Insulated:
STC:46 R:47

9) Staggered Stud, Single Layer both sides, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:47 R:47

10) Single Stud, Double Layer both sides, Insulated:
STC:49 R:48

11) Staggered Stud, Single Layer both sides, Insulated one side with compression:
STC:49 R:48

12) Single Stud, Double layer one side, Triple layer other side, Insulated:
STC:51 R:50

13) Staggered Stud, Single Layer both sides, Resilient channel on one side, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:51 R:52

14) Single Stud, Single Layer on one side, Double Layer on other side GreenGlued, Insulated:
STC:52 R:41

15) Single Stud, Triple layer both sides, Insulated:
STC:52 R:50

16) Staggered Stud, Single Layer one side, Double Layer on other side, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:52 R:52

17) Single Stud, Single Layer on one side, Double layer on the other side with Resilient channel, Insulated:
STC:53 R:52

18) Single Stud, Double Layer on one side, Single Layer on the other side with Resilient channel, Insulated:
STC:53 R:53

19) Staggered Stud, Single Layer one side, Double Layer on other side, Both Sides Insulated no compression and not touching:
STC:54 R:53

20) Single Stud, Double Layer both sides, Both GreenGlued, Insulated:
STC:55 R:48

21) Staggered Stud, Double Layer both sides, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:56 R:56

22) Staggered Stud, Single Layer on one side, Double layer on the other side with Resilient channel, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:56 R:57

23) Staggered Stud, Double Layer both sides, Both Sides Insulated no compression and not touching:
STC:57 R:56

24) Staggered Stud, Double Layer one side, Single Layer on the other side with Resilient channel, Both Sides Insulated and touching:
STC:57 R:58

25) Single Stud, Double Layer on both sides, Resilient channel on one side, Insulated:
STC:59 R:57

26) Double Stud, Single Layer both sides, Insulated both sides:
STC:59 R:60

27) Staggered Stud, Double Layer Both sides, Resilient channel on one side, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:62 R:62

28) Staggered Stud, Double Layer Both sides, Resilient channel on one side With SoundClips, Snaked Insulation with no compression:
STC:63 R:63

28) Double Stud, Single Layer on one side, double layer on the other side, Insulated both sides:
STC:64 R:65

29) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, Insulated both sides:
STC:69 R:69

30) Double Stud, Single Layer both sides, Resilient channel on one side, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

31) Double Stud, Single Layer both sides, one side with soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

32) Double Stud, Single Layer on one side, double layer on the other side with Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

33) Double Stud, Single Layer on one side, double layer on the other side with soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

34) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, Resilient channel on one side, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

35) Double Stud, Single Layer on one side, double layer on the other side with soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

36) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, One side with soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

37) Double Stud, Single Layer on one side, double layer on the other side with GreenGlue and soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

38) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, One side with GreenGlue and soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

39) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, both with GreenGlue and soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

40) Double Stud, Triple Layer both sides, both with GreenGlue and soundboard and Resilient channel, Insulated both sides:
STC:?? R:??

41) Double Stud, Double Layer both sides, One side with soundboard and GreenGlue, Resilient channel on one side, Insulated both sides, With 8inches of cement on one side:
STC:?? R:??



That video was made with my Level 31 wall, and by the end of tomorrow I should be near an ideal Level 37 wall. eek.gif and version 2.0 of this room would be a Level 41 design eek.gifeek.gif

and just in-case in wasn't obvious, most peoples homes in North America are only a Level 2 for their external wall and only a Level 1 inside!!!!
and additionally it should be fairly obvious that a double-studded wall costs (almost) twice as much as a singular (hence why almost nobody does it).
Just thought I'd put that out there just in case that big list made you fall asleep biggrin.gif
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post #139 of 747 Old 12-29-2012, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a GreenGlue knuckle rap test. Not very scientific but you can still hear the difference between a single untreated (Layer 1 style wall) vs that plus a DD /w GG added.
19 hours later after being exposed to direct air, the compound is still flexible; but has darkened and become 10x more tacky, and paper backing has soaked up roughly 2 millimeters of the compound turning it dark brown, it now has the consistency of semi-dried out chewing gum.
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post #140 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is 5 minutes of STC 70. Could you handle this?
(I could hear my own neck muscles after 4 minutes.)

How about with the lights off (which reaches near 0db in this room)? (Yes the light bulb was making ~5db of noise).

There was only one sound from outside, it was at 3:07 (not sure what it was, wind or something.); and that's it.
As Mr. Orfield said, YOU become the only source of entertainment!

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post #141 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Here is 5 minutes of STC 70. Could you handle this?
(I could hear my own neck muscles after 4 minutes.)
How about with the lights off (which reaches near 0db in this room)? (Yes the light bulb was making ~5db of noise).
There was only one sound from outside, it was at 3:07 (not sure what it was, wind or something.); and that's it.
As Mr. Orfield said, YOU become the only source of entertainment!

Just curious as to if you ran the wires in the walls and the electrical outlets in the room yet? How many outlets did you run along the walls and the speaker drops. I found I never have enough no matter how many I put in. From now on, when I build, I am putting multiple gang outlets at all points where single gangs would normally be. I cannot stand using those wall warts or the power strips. Just curious.

Keep cranking,

Robert


Looks fabulous!!!
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post #142 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 04:50 AM
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The single layer of OSB on the other side of your wall is likely your weak link.
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post #143 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 04:55 AM
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are you doing this all by your self? you must have a lot of time on your hands to be moving along so quickly LOL!

Either way, great job and thank you for documenting so much of it. very good stuff!!

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post #144 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 07:33 AM
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I need to build one of these silent rooms for my kids when they are in trouble. Nothing more scary than total silence!
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post #145 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Just curious as to if you ran the wires in the walls and the electrical outlets in the room yet? How many outlets did you run along the walls and the speaker drops. I found I never have enough no matter how many I put in. From now on, when I build, I am putting multiple gang outlets at all points where single gangs would normally be. I cannot stand using those wall warts or the power strips. Just curious.
Keep cranking,
Robert
Looks fabulous!!!

Finishing the electrical and audio outlets will be the last thing I do, before building shelves for the amps.
I haven't done much of any electrical yet.
It will all be ran in it's own false wall, including the projector.
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post #146 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

are you doing this all by your self? you must have a lot of time on your hands to be moving along so quickly LOL!
Either way, great job and thank you for documenting so much of it. very good stuff!!

If you put your mind and muscles into it, it doesn't take too long.

It took me a day to remove the existing walls.
30 minutes to unwire the room.
5 minutes to remove the VB.
3 days to caulk the OSB gaps.
The foundation digging took 2 days.
The cement took 1.5 weeks.
The reframing took 1.5 weeks.
2 days to add the roxul and refresh VB.
The roofing tiles took 2 days.
The drywalling took 3 days.
The electrical hasn't been started yet, probably two days.

In total I'm 63 days into the project.

I got help with the digging of the foundation, cement powder mixing process, and the roofing tiles, and lifting of the framing, and transport of supplies.

Vapour barrier and insulation took me no time at all to install.
Applying GreenGlue takes no time at all for me.
Doing drywall on the walls takes no time at all (more or less), the ceiling is another matter.
Hat channels aren't difficult, the metal density can make your wrist hurt after a while.
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post #147 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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My Highly Scientific and Highly Professional application process biggrin.gif


GreenGlue Wall Fractals biggrin.gif
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post #148 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The single layer of OSB on the other side of your wall is likely your weak link.

Somewhat, the entry door and the attic ventilation (the overhang) is actually the weakest spots.
The door can be solved by me finishing the installation of the second one; and once the second layer of 5/8's goes up the attic will still be the weak spot.
Lastly the OSB. Which will have to wait until springtime because I'm pretty far north and it will get very cold here within the next few weeks (too cold to work outside). I'm within a 3 hour drive of the 49th parallel and if I hoped in my vehicle in the morning, I could be at any point in Washington or Northern Idaho by dinner time (or sooner); and by airplane I could be in Seattle within 2 hours. Not quite Alaska-north-cold, but still cold enough... tongue.gif
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post #149 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

If you put your mind and muscles into it, it doesn't take too long.
It took me a day to remove the existing walls.
30 minutes to unwire the room.
5 minutes to remove the VB.
3 days to caulk the OSB gaps.
The foundation digging took 2 days.
The cement took 1.5 weeks.
The reframing took 1.5 weeks.
2 days to add the roxul and refresh VB.
The roofing tiles took 2 days.
The drywalling took 3 days.
The electrical hasn't been started yet, probably two days.
In total I'm 63 days into the project.
I got help with the digging of the foundation, cement powder mixing process, and the roofing tiles, and lifting of the framing, and transport of supplies.
Vapour barrier and insulation took me no time at all to install.
Applying GreenGlue takes no time at all for me.
Doing drywall on the walls takes no time at all (more or less), the ceiling is another matter.
Hat channels aren't difficult, the metal density can make your wrist hurt after a while.

You obviously do not have kids, but your progress is amazing!

JSS
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post #150 of 747 Old 12-30-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

, I could be at any point in Washington or Northern Idaho by dinner time (or sooner); and by airplane I could be in Seattle within 2 hours. Not quite Alaska-north-cold, but still cold enough... tongue.gif

I'm just a couple hours east of Northern Idaho and I think single our digit temps are closing in on Alaska North climate. Well maybe not, but it's still freaking freezing. tongue.gif

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