New build for dedicated 3600 cu ft theater. Two RSS390HF's? Four? Sealed/Ported? - AVS Forum
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all !!!

I'm thinking of doing a 'two 15" speaker setup' driven by two Behringer ep2000's each bridged to 4 ohms, 1 per sub. I'm possibly going with Dayton RSS390HF-4 drivers ported and tuned to 20 Hz.

I looked at the TC Sounds LMS-R and a JBL but like the curve in WinISD on the Dayton. The price is right too.

I was leaning towards sealed but after comparing the sealed SPL curves to the ported, I just don't see the advantage other than enclosure size. My room is 16' by 22' with 10' ceilings and I thought I could either support my center channel with one and/or disguise them both as "end tables". WAF is important. I've built many boxes before, but all for car audio when I was younger.

I'm going to run 4 emotiva XPA-2 amps to PSB Synchrony One mains, center, and S surrounds. I need two more speakers for my surround backs but those can wait. I also need the projector but have the screen, and I need an Integra DHC-80.3 to complete the room. I also need one or two motorized drapes. Does Makita still make them or do I have to go BTX or...? Anyway, wrong thread for that.

I'm not a base-head but figured the room could handle two 15's pretty easily. I am looking for positive feedback only. Any negative feedback will surely hurt my feelings. Just kidding.

Seriously though, I'm not looking for "Dude, just put in an iNuke 6000 and four LMS Ultra 18's" because I'm thinking two 15's is already overkill for my wife, kid, and neighbors! I'm going to be 90/10 movies/music.

I read recently that Emotiva is coming out with a sub amp and if they are quick enough, I might wait for a price to compare to my ep2000's. I can get those at walmart so it's going to be a tough comparison. It's not like Emotiva is an elite brand.

So I'm sure may of you have done design's for these subs already... would love to see them. Also, does anyone know the real RMS and Peak output of the EP2k?

Thanks in advance!

David

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:38 PM
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Dude, just put in an iNuke 3000 DSP and four RSS390HO's in ~5 cubes ea. tuned to 20hz, one per corner. ;-)

the dsp can be used to limit the drivers from becoming undone below tuning.

that should get you over 120db for under $1k from 20hz up, smooth out a lot of room effects, but the main problem is that you might need a 5 minute, $10 fan mod. :-)~

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Dude, just put in an iNuke 3000 DSP and four RSS390HO's in ~5 cubes ea. tuned to 20hz, one per corner. ;-)
the dsp can be used to limit the drivers from becoming undone below tuning.
that should get you over 120db for under $1k from 20hz up, smooth out a lot of room effects, but the main problem is that you might need a 5 minute, $10 fan mod. :-)~

Fan mods are not a problem, 4 corners of the room is a problem... I've always heard that in order to avoid "modes" in the room, 1/3 of the way down the wall works best, more than 1 sub works best, and keep in mind, I'll have Audyssey XT32 working for me so I'm reluctant to buy an amp with DSP (I don't think I'd use it?). My corners can't accommodate the subs even if I wanted them to though.

I also like the looks of the EP better than the iNuke but it'll be behind cabinet doors so that won't be a huge deal breaker either way. I like the 120db for under $1k from 20Hz up. I'm in my early 40's and don't think I can hear below 50Hz... but maybe with the right subs?

Very interesting advice though, thank you. Does Audyssey have a high pass filter at around 20Hz or is this why I need DSP in my sub amp?

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Old 10-31-2012, 01:43 AM
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Audyssey does not apply a high pass filter so you would need one in the amp or a seperate DSP solution like the mini-dsp. Typically you can get away without a highpass on sealed systems.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bushi View Post

Audyssey does not apply a high pass filter so you would need one in the amp or a seperate DSP solution like the mini-dsp. Typically you can get away without a highpass on sealed systems.

Newer Audyssey products do not apply boost below what it calculates to be the -3dB point for the sub, but also do not high pass, so one may or may not be necessary depending on the subwoofer enclosure type.

JSS
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Dude, just put in an iNuke 3000 DSP and four RSS390HO's in ~5 cubes ea. tuned to 20hz, one per corner. ;-)
the dsp can be used to limit the drivers from becoming undone below tuning.
that should get you over 120db for under $1k from 20hz up, smooth out a lot of room effects, but the main problem is that you might need a 5 minute, $10 fan mod. :-)~

Fan mods are not a problem, 4 corners of the room is a problem... I've always heard that in order to avoid "modes" in the room, 1/3 of the way down the wall works best, more than 1 sub works best, and keep in mind, I'll have Audyssey XT32 working for me so I'm reluctant to buy an amp with DSP (I don't think I'd use it?). My corners can't accommodate the subs even if I wanted them to though.

I also like the looks of the EP better than the iNuke but it'll be behind cabinet doors so that won't be a huge deal breaker either way. I like the 120db for under $1k from 20Hz up. I'm in my early 40's and don't think I can hear below 50Hz... but maybe with the right subs?

Very interesting advice though, thank you. Does Audyssey have a high pass filter at around 20Hz or is this why I need DSP in my sub amp?

 

 

LOL, I see you followed the three steps ;)

 

Don't be so fast to dismiss advice from LTD02, his recommendation is excellent.  As far as corners being a problem, yes one sub in one corner will prob have modal issues.  However four subs in four corners in a sealed rectangular room is considered an excellent textbook multi-sub setup.  Nevermind though, you said your corners are not accessible and you only mentioned wanting two.  I think the consensus ideal placement for two subs in a sealed rectangular room currently is midwall symmetrically opposing walls left and right or front and back.  33% down the walls are not bad positions either.

 

The EPs are good amps, but don't have EQ or high pass filters.  If you port to 20 you have to filter out the signal below your tuning frequency.  Below tuning the woofer "unloads" and excursion goes through the roof.  Without the high pass filter on a ported enclosure you would likely destroy the driver, not to mention the sound quality issues of letting the driver flop around below tuning without control.  If you absolutely want the EP amps I would recommend the MiniDsp EQs they are top notch, but in a financial pinch you could make a BFD feedback destroyer work so long as you don't tune below 20Hz.

 

Since you mention only having room/space for 2 subs have you considered two dual opposed sealed or dual sealed?  That should net you nearly the same output down to tuning and offer a considerable advantage below tuning.  Sealed boxes are also the easiest subs to build and don't require a high pass filter if designed proper.  The saved cost of foregoing the high pass(if you aren't going to EQ the subs anyways) would afford you one extra driver(making 3) so you would just have to pony up for the fourth. 

 

Even if you build the box right and all the calculations are correct your tuning frequency could be 5Hz or so off.  If you build a tuned sub I recommend building a proven design which has the tuning documented.  That will result a better sub IMO.

 

Question:  Do you have measurement capability?  Do you know anyone who does?  If not maybe someone local can help you out.  If you go at it with your own design you really need to be able to measure.

 

Good Luck!

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


LOL, I see you followed the three steps wink.gif

I did!
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Don't be so fast to dismiss advice from LTD02, his recommendation is excellent. As far as corners being a problem, yes one sub in one corner will prob have modal issues. However four subs in four corners in a sealed rectangular room is considered an excellent textbook multi-sub setup. Nevermind though, you said your corners are not accessible and you only mentioned wanting two. I think the consensus ideal placement for two subs in a sealed rectangular room currently is midwall symmetrically opposing walls left and right or front and back. 33% down the walls are not bad positions either.

I didn't!

I could tell he was experienced by his response, I just don't have four corners available because of the width of my room (16') compared to the width of my screen plus mains (13' or so). I also have a door, and a rack in the other two corners. I think I can get 50% of the way down both side walls though, and this would fit nicely with a two sub design.
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The EPs are good amps, but don't have EQ or high pass filters.  If you port to 20 you have to filter out the signal below your tuning frequency.  Below tuning the woofer "unloads" and excursion goes through the roof.  Without the high pass filter on a ported enclosure you would likely destroy the driver, not to mention the sound quality issues of letting the driver flop around below tuning without control.  If you absolutely want the EP amps I would recommend the MiniDsp EQs they are top notch, but in a financial pinch you could make a BFD feedback destroyer work so long as you don't tune below 20Hz.

I may as well get the DSP Behringer then, cause tuned to 20Hz at 5 cubes (assuming LTD02 has done the math and the port length is feasible) sounds good to me.

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Since you mention only having room/space for 2 subs have you considered two dual opposed sealed or dual sealed?  That should net you nearly the same output down to tuning and offer a considerable advantage below tuning.  Sealed boxes are also the easiest subs to build and don't require a high pass filter if designed proper.  The saved cost of foregoing the high pass(if you aren't going to EQ the subs anyways) would afford you one extra driver(making 3) so you would just have to pony up for the fourth. 

I was thinking sealed, then went to ported, now considering sealed again. By dual opposed vs dual sealed, I'm assuming you mean magnet to magnet (dual opposed) vs isobaric (magnet to cone)? I just want to make sure my lingo is up to date, its been a while. The fourth driver is not a problem $ wise since I'm going Dayton instead of TC/JBL. The SPL curves look much better for the ported to me (flat down to 20Hz). I'm not too concerned with output because I think they will keep up with my demands pretty easily. I'm looking for fidelity, to keep up with my PSB's - sound quality wise. So I was mostly hoping for a flat response so that I just had to auto-correct the room. What is the advantage of two dual opposed (4 drivers) vs ported/sealed (2 drivers). If it's output, I'm not sure I'd need that.
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Even if you build the box right and all the calculations are correct your tuning frequency could be 5Hz or so off.  If you build a tuned sub I recommend building a proven design which has the tuning documented.  That will result a better sub IMO.

Question:  Do you have measurement capability?  Do you know anyone who does?  If not maybe someone local can help you out.  If you go at it with your own design you really need to be able to measure.

This (to me) is key! In my ported sub experience from the past, tuning was a pain and you had to guess at the port size even after crunching all of the T/S parms because it was always an imperfect science, mostly because I was building for cars. I was always able to squeeze bigger drivers into smaller sealed boxes in the 12v world. A "proven design" would be ideal, but I mostly see people selling these or offering box building as a service. Are there designs readily available somewhere?

Also, I'm looking for something that will be chair height (18") off the ground when complete so I was thinking of 14" with 4" legs, or 15" with 3" legs, in a downward firing configuration, maybe "bench" like, while keeping the "golden ratio of LxHxW" in mind. This way they could double as short term seating during the meetings that we will be having at my house, and have an improved WAF. Yes, I'm actually a Radio Frequency Engineer and have access to test equipment, but have never delved into sub testing. I mostly do wireless communications. What do I need, and SPL meter or a spectrum analyzer? How do most on here do it? I have a friend with a microphone, a laptop, and some RTA software who would love to help I'm sure.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bushi View Post

Audyssey does not apply a high pass filter so you would need one in the amp or a seperate DSP solution like the mini-dsp. Typically you can get away without a highpass on sealed systems.
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Newer Audyssey products do not apply boost below what it calculates to be the -3dB point for the sub, but also do not high pass, so one may or may not be necessary depending on the subwoofer enclosure type.
JSS

Very useful info. I'll either go with a DSP or without one biggrin.gif Kind of like: I only drink when I'm alone or with someone. Seriously though, I better figure out if I want sealed or ported first! Lol...

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:13 AM
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I'll have Audyssey XT32 working for me so I'm reluctant to buy an amp with DSP (I don't think I'd use it?).

As others have stated, you will need something additional to Aud. for their reasons, but it also wont hurt to just have a little extra tweaking capability anyways.

Also, dual opposed just means that one driver is on the "front" of the box, and the other driver is directly opposite on the "back" of the box. This helps tremendously with box vibrations as the drivers are moving exactly the same way, in opposite directions.

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots to think about. So I can tune a 5 cu ft box to 20 Hz down-firing? I'm hearing lots of encouragement to do 4 drivers. Sounds like DSP will be a must.

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Old 10-31-2012, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, dual opposed just means that one driver is on the "front" of the box, and the other driver is directly opposite on the "back" of the box. This helps tremendously with box vibrations as the drivers are moving exactly the same way, in opposite directions.

... the advantage of reducing box vibration is cleaner sound?

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:12 PM
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ai, i was just busting your chops by starting my post with "dude..." because you said please don't say that. :-)~

the one below will net about 5 cubic feet and be tuned to around 20hz. the dimensions can be changed so long as the net internal volume and port lengths/diameters remain the same so will the tuning.

you could go down firing, just give the driver some room to breath 2-3". you could also stack a pair per side for more damage.

that amp/dsp was suggested for the high pass filter to protect the driver under tuning and because it matches well to 4 -ho drivers in this kind of enclosure or something similar.

if you can't go corner loaded, there are other placements that work fine. that is just a really good one as a start. there are calculators for placement, but you are probably just going to have to experiment a little.



"... the advantage of reducing box vibration is cleaner sound?"

yeah...but you don't have to go nutzoid.

"I'm hearing lots of encouragement to do 4 drivers."

that is about what you need for full reference in your space. if you buy the amp, it has enough power for another 2 drivers, so for just a few more bucks, you get much more spl. :-)

"Also, I'm looking for something that will be chair height (18") off the ground when complete so I was thinking of 14" with 4" legs, or 15" with 3" legs, in a downward firing configuration, maybe "bench" like, while keeping the "golden ratio of LxHxW" in mind. This way they could double as short term seating during the meetings that we will be having at my house, and have an improved WAF."

oh, missed this one. that is a cool idea. a longish down firing side ported "bench sub"... i like it! you could even go crazy and get it leather covered. there was a guy who did an ottoman like that. it turned out great.


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Old 10-31-2012, 09:11 PM
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Join the club and do a quad sealed sub!

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:28 PM
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"Join the club and do a quad sealed sub!"

yeah, but driver-for-driver, you lose about 10db sensitivity around tuning. that is a lot to give up.

but, if money isn't a problem, how about four 5 cubic footer down firing sealed dayton 18's.

ah, here is an ottoman build for inspiration. bracing is a little over kill.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1340095/maelstrom-21-ottoman-build

lots of ideas. target in on what you like the most within your constraints.

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:01 AM
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I'm not a base-head

 

 

That's good to know, as you'll probably have difficulty holding onto any electronics valued at over $10...biggrin.gif


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Old 11-01-2012, 07:48 AM
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... the advantage of reducing box vibration is cleaner sound?

More the advantage is to keep the box from dacing around. It is also a more compact way to do it really, but if you are going ported, it isnt the best idea to do dual opposed, that is more for a "sealed" alignment.

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That's good to know, as you'll probably have difficulty holding onto any electronics valued at over $10...biggrin.gif

I caught that too, why is your face red?

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Old 11-01-2012, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I caught that too, why is your face red?

Slim Shady, is that you? It looks like I missed all the fun here!

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Old 11-01-2012, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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That's good to know, as you'll probably have difficulty holding onto any electronics valued at over $10...biggrin.gif

You guys got humor, I like it!

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Old 11-01-2012, 09:43 AM
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The only issue with end tables, ottomans, and coffee table subs is WIREz.  If you can run them under the floor or hide them some other way cool but I don't want wires run all over the living room.

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Old 11-01-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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ai, i was just busting your chops by starting my post with "dude..." because you said please don't say that. :-)~

Chops are made for busting! No harm, no foul !
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that is about what you need for full reference in your space. if you buy the amp, it has enough power for another 2 drivers, so for just a few more bucks, you get much more spl. :-)

Who's reference? Lol.... you're saying the DSP3000 will have enough power for the 4 Dayton 15's? I could probably fit qty 4 x 5 cu ft boxes at the midpoint of each wall.

[/quote]

I like this design ! I'm curious though, would two of the RSS460HO 18's in these same enclosures (but sealed, one per enclosure) be better?

I'm deciding on a budget that has to be below $2k complete. I think this would allow for 4 subs if I want, or two amps if needed, maybe both if I go with 15's and smaller amps. I love the leather covered ottoman idea, even in bench form, BUT... if I do 4 x 15" driver benches and two amps, I'm thinking I couldn't squeeze in the upholsterer and upholstery is not my strong point. I get that its easier to double my speaker count for a 3dB increase than to increase my power by 10 fold. I could always do two to start and add two later if I deemed it necessary, right? Spending $1200 now and another $1k later would soften the blow on my budget and give me flexibility there.

Power wise, my only concern is having enough. smile.gif Ok, my real concern is that those Emotiva's claim 300W per channel into 4 ohms. I don't want Audyssey doing anything wacky like cutting that Emotiva power because the subs can't keep up. I read that going with RMS power on the amp that matches peak power on the sub was a good idea. Is this a realistic rule of thumb? Also, should I assume Behringer is only about 50-60% of what they claim on power ratings?

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Old 11-01-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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The only issue with end tables, ottomans, and coffee table subs is WIREz.  If you can run them under the floor or hide them some other way cool but I don't want wires run all over the living room.

I would just place the benches against the wall and leave a little slack to pull them out if they are going to be seating instead of woofing. My room got prewired and I'd have to address that, because I was thinking XLR to each sub and now I'm rack mounting and will have to pull speaker wire. I was also only thinking of two subs not four at the time!

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Why does this look like 8 cu ft to me and why is my port length coming out at 14.09" for a 4" in WINisd?

Are we talking internal cu ft or external? is 8 cu ft actually 5 when you subtract out volume for driver, port, and bracing? I'm cornfused!!! lol...

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Why does this look like 8 cu ft to me and why is my port length coming out at 14.09" for a 4" in WINisd?
Are we talking internal cu ft or external? is 8 cu ft actually 5 when you subtract out volume for driver, port, and bracing? I'm cornfused!!! lol...

Or if you do 2 ports I get 31.12" which I'm guessing is what you did? .465 cu ft for the ports... 1 cu ft for the driver? .5 for the bracing? nets about 6? just guessing here...

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Old 11-01-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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5.5 cu ft boxes, tuned to 20Hz for the ported 15's for the HO and HF Daytons, compared to the 18 in a sealed...

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Old 11-01-2012, 07:05 PM
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by reference, i meant >120db from 20hz up. that is the 115db lfe max plus all redirected bass.

"The only issue with end tables, ottomans, and coffee table subs is WIREz. If you can run them under the floor or hide them some other way cool but I don't want wires run all over the living room."

there are several options. the easiest is to run them around the baseboards. if you have space above or below the theater, they can be routed that way. there are even some flat wire options that can be run under the carpet (but i'm not sure if i like that idea).

"Why does this look like 8 cu ft to me and why is my port length coming out at 14.09" for a 4" in WINisd?"

that is with one port. two will be longer.

"Are we talking internal cu ft or external? is 8 cu ft actually 5 when you subtract out volume for driver, port, and bracing? I'm cornfused!!!"

sorry for the confusion. it was a "napkin scratch" suggestion, just to see if that is roughly something that would work. 8 cu ft was for internal and that would mean the external dimensions would have to be a little larger.

"I'm curious though, would two of the RSS460HO 18's in these same enclosures (but sealed, one per enclosure) be better?"

for the 460's sealed, i'd suggest 4 cubic feet each.

----

if you aren't into upholstery, a simple seat cushion plopped on top should work.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40x40cm-Gray-Handmade-Square-Soft-Dining-Chair-Seat-Ties-Pad-Filled-EPE-Cushion-/120982217262?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2b1a222e

----

"Or if you do 2 ports I get 31.12" which I'm guessing is what you did? .465 cu ft for the ports... 1 cu ft for the driver? .5 for the bracing? nets about 6? just guessing here..."

yeah...two. 0.5 for the driver is closer.

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Old 11-01-2012, 07:10 PM
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another random option would be two long horns like this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1404092/wanted-big-bass-big-room-open-to-an-even-bigger-room-with-lots-of-windows

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

another random option would be two long horns like this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1404092/wanted-big-bass-big-room-open-to-an-even-bigger-room-with-lots-of-windows

Ya, I'm definitely leaning towards the "4 x ported bench 15" build. I think I can afford the space and I like the curves I'm getting. The WAF is good and the theory seems sound. I think 48" is a little long to net 5 cubes so I'll run through that math. I need a good porting primer so I can tune the boxes correctly. I just looked in my side yard and saw that I have a big piece of 4" pvc drain pipe left over from my recent drainage improvements. I think it may come in handy!

Any idea why the HF spl curve came out on top of the HO spl curve? Seems like "high output" should've yielded more spl!?! HF is red, HO is green. Sealed 18 is blue.

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Old 11-02-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post

...Any idea why the HF spl curve came out on top of the HO spl curve? Seems like "high output" should've yielded more spl!?! HF is red, HO is green. Sealed 18 is blue.

Check your data. HF and HO have the same sensitivity, but the HF digs deeper while the HO takes more power. The fact that your green curve extends lower in frequency indicates its the HF. If that's the case, then the difference is due to modeling at rated power, so the added 300W to the HO predicts a 2.5dB greater output, which is what you show. Model it at equal power and you should only see a difference in extension.

HAve fun,
Frank
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Check your data. HF and HO have the same sensitivity, but the HF digs deeper while the HO takes more power. The fact that your green curve extends lower in frequency indicates its the HF. If that's the case, then the difference is due to modeling at rated power, so the added 300W to the HO predicts a 2.5dB greater output, which is what you show. Model it at equal power and you should only see a difference in extension.
HAve fun,
Frank

Well I found some definite differences in the T/S parms I had in WinISD compared to what was on the Dayton Audio website for these two drivers. I fixed the differences but still show the HO extending lower and the HF putting out more SPL. Here's another screen capture with the driver info showing. Of course there are "advanced parameters" and even some "parameters" that I don't have and have presumably been calc'd by WinISD. Here are the screen captures. I downloaded T/S files for these speakers from another website.

The input power for both is 800 W. The port size for both is the same, as is the box size - 5.5 cubes at 20 Hz...



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Old 11-02-2012, 04:12 PM
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1000

 

That is what I get....

 

X1 HF - 400w

x1 HO- 500w

 

Both have a 20hz highpass and right at xmax.

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