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post #151 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 11:48 AM
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Thanks so much for the explanation. I'm excited to try out your design!

 

If I think that in a year I'll use an AT screen, would you recommend implementing that crossover change option? Or would one be okay letting AVR EQ handle the compensation?

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post #152 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 12:22 PM
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On the schematic you'll be sent (not sure what Erich is doing) there is a note. Resistor - 1 to 3 ohms. Or something like that. If one day you go with an AT screen. Swap in the 1ohm. Or even 0ohm (as in, get rid of it.). It's really subtle though. If it means having to take apart your speaker, I wouldn't be worried about it.
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post #153 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 12:43 PM
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tuxedocivic,

is using these horizonatlly a really bad idea? this is specifically for surrounds.
mine are placed fairly high above the seats, tilted down. I think having the speakers oriented horizontally would give better coverage of the listening area in my case (two rows 4 seats each). what do you think?
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post #154 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 12:56 PM
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That's a good question I've given some consideration, but haven't mentioned it for fear of confusion (can I use it as a center, how about 3 rows of seats, etc.) but since you've asked I'll try and answer.

The short answer is you certainly could use it horizontally.

The long answer, depends on the geometry. No matter, there is always going to be a null in the vertical position somewhere. If you want to cover all your seats, you need to look at the verticals and decide what's not good enough. Maybe for the Fusion Max it's at 30 degrees above and 20 degrees below axis. So depending on where you place the speaker, you have 50 degrees of decent coverage. If you have 2 rows of seats and they're pretty close to the wall, you may not fit into that window. If you have 1 row of seats and can get that row fairly on axis, then ya, pretty good way to do it.

The nice thing about horizontal placement, is the ceiling reflection will be very nice and uniform. So it's not a bad way to go. Also keep in mind, we're talking surrounds. If a few seats miss out on half an octave for a total of a few minutes of the movie, maybe it doesn't matter.

No, this speaker isn't a good choice for a horizontal center in most situations. Maybe if you were sitting a ways back and your seating was only a few seats wide and your side walls were far away. Not a common scenario. I'd like to do a center design that matches this kit though. Thinking cool.gif
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post #155 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 01:45 PM
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thank you.

just to clarify, I meant turning the whole box on its side so that the horn now has 40-50 degrees horizontal and about 90 degrees vertical coverage. is that the scenario you were discussing?
Normally the horn is also turned 90 degrees so that wider horizontal coverage is maintained. I've seen it done with center channels and pro sound floor monitors. But that's not what i want to do. I figured 40 degrees horizontal should be enough to cover both rows and 90 degrees vertical would allow me to "crossfire" surrounds above the seats in a way similar to the mains heavily toed in.
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post #156 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 01:49 PM
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Yup, that's what I meant to. Maybe Java could do it and tell us how it goes.

If you kept the waveguide horizontal, that would be bad. There would be a very large null in the vertical at modest angles.
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post #157 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I bought a couple Fusion Max kits that use the Delta 10a and DNA-350, so I think this is the same speaker.
It also happens that I'm upgrading from Paradigm Performance speakers: Titan v3 and CC-170 v3!
So this thread will be a big help to this noob.

Tuxedocivic's comment about the greater vertical directivity of this design (which is desired in surrounds) has me wondering if it's not as appropriate for a front L/R or L/C/R purpose that I'm using them for?

Hey Eyleron,

Great purchase. You'll be very happy!!

I don't know if you got your question on using the Fusion Max as mains. Absolutely!! I just used them as surrounds, but they are quite capable mains. In fact, Tux, I believe it is true to say that is their primary purpose.

Trust me in that they will stomp your Titan's and CC-170. Night and day!!

Are you using paradigms dipoles for surrounds? If so, this is a pretty big change. You are going from a very diffuse sound field to a more directed one. Some argue that diffuse is the way to go for surrounds. I like the direct sound better.

Good luck on your build.
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post #158 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, that's what I meant to. Maybe Java could do it and tell us how it goes.

If you kept the waveguide horizontal, that would be bad. There would be a very large null in the vertical at modest angles.

I'll take a pass on that one. tongue.gif

My next project is subs and then maybe some rear and height speakers. On the speakers, weren't you working on a smaller speaker? I see Jeff has a Fusion 8 kit. Would the SEOS-8 blend well with the SEOS-12? Thanks
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post #159 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 04:41 PM
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In fact, Tux, I believe it is true to say that is their primary purpose.

They make good mains in a moderate system (by moderate I mean by the standards around here, will slaughter most systems in the other parts of the forum) or surrounds for a really high output system in a large room. As mains, consider these have a higher sensitivity than quite a few of the 12" models.

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I'll take a pass on that one. tongue.gif

Oh c'mon tongue.gif You don't want to take down and re-hang those beasts biggrin.gif
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My next project is subs and then maybe some rear and height speakers.

Nice, please do another build thread.
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On the speakers, weren't you working on a smaller speaker? I see Jeff has a Fusion 8 kit. Would the SEOS-8 blend well with the SEOS-12? Thanks

Ya, I put together a little 8" design. Very budget minded. Uses the Eminence alpha 8a. But likely won't be kitted. If someone wanted to build it, they have to order parts themselves and go through me for help/cross over. The SEOS8 should blend with the SEOS12, but Jeff didn't use the SEOS8. He used an EOS8 I believe.
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post #160 of 189 Old 01-14-2013, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Oh c'mon tongue.gif You don't want to take down and re-hang those beasts biggrin.gif

I can always ask my twin nephews to hold them over their heads while I do a test listen. wink.gif

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Ya, I put together a little 8" design. Very budget minded. Uses the Eminence alpha 8a. But likely won't be kitted. If someone wanted to build it, they have to order parts themselves and go through me for help/cross over. The SEOS8 should blend with the SEOS12, but Jeff didn't use the SEOS8. He used an EOS8 I believe.

Ah. I read the kits specs too fast. EOS8 are pretty different than the SEOS designs, aren't they? Did you use a SEOS12 for your design?
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post #161 of 189 Old 01-22-2013, 06:03 PM
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Hey Eyleron,

Great purchase. You'll be very happy!!

I don't know if you got your question on using the Fusion Max as mains. Absolutely!! I just used them as surrounds, but they are quite capable mains. In fact, Tux, I believe it is true to say that is their primary purpose.

Trust me in that they will stomp your Titan's and CC-170. Night and day!!

Are you using paradigms dipoles for surrounds? If so, this is a pretty big change. You are going from a very diffuse sound field to a more directed one. Some argue that diffuse is the way to go for surrounds. I like the direct sound better.

Good luck on your build.

Your message to the world of noobs that "we can do it!" has inspired me. With apprehension, I'm off to the hardware store to buy clamps sander, paint, etc. My boss doesn't know where his orbital sander is, and everyone else has vibrating sanders that I don't think I want to use. And no one seems to have large enough clamps. 

 

Hey, maybe I'll get so good I'll be building them speakers later with these tools!

 

Yeah with the Paradigms, when I turn it up to -10 calibrated or higher, either the receiver is distorting, or the speakers can't handle more than 100w (which is about all they're rated for, however much that's worth), or a combination of both...because it'd get harsh around 94dB.

Yes I have the ADP-170s. I might move them to the back. I'd thought last year I'd compromise on bipoles for more direct than the dipoles. Due to my narrow room, I'd be interested in small in-walls. I like the SEOS providing uniform directivity, and firing the right speaker at the left seat, so that the closer right seat is off-axis but receives about the same level. 

 

I think it's easy for the experts who've been doing this for year to lose sight over how daunting these projects can be for DIY noobs. Needed tools. The things that can go wrong, etc. 

But Erich grouping the parts in kits, providing flat packs...the designers designing a speaker for every purpose...and great documentation on how to choose what, and then people like you explaining how to put it together and what the pitfalls are in the instructables -- it just makes it so much more accessible to a larger crowd. I was definitely intimidated last year and wouldn't have bitten. The Econowave massive thread and difficulty in finding high-sensitivity designs (they seemed to mostly cater to two channel fans?) put me off a bit. CHT and eD were bitter-sweet.

 

So I'm glad I finally found my next speakers! I'm going to try just the pair to see how that does in my narrow long room, heavily toed in like in Bill Waslo's article. 

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post #162 of 189 Old 01-22-2013, 07:50 PM
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Good luck Eyleron! We're always here to help smile.gif
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post #163 of 189 Old 01-23-2013, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Good luck Eyleron! We're always here to help smile.gif

Agreed!!
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post #164 of 189 Old 01-23-2013, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Crossover Video

I finally got around to making a video on the crossover build. For some reason, I only shot the LF board. Hopefully it still makes sense.

Please let me know your all thoughts. I can edit pretty easy, so don't hesitate on the feedback.

Crossover Video
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post #165 of 189 Old 01-24-2013, 11:29 AM
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This is great stuff! You changed it from a "12-part documentary" to a "quick action film."

 

My only wants when watching it were things like "I wish he used two cameras so we could see what he's doing without his hands getting in the way." 

 

Maybe for your next build:

 

  • Have you thought of building a rig with a tiny macro lens that you can move with an overhead "crane" so you can run the camera "through" the crossover at low angle, "driving" around the components like they were buildings, dipping under the mono-rail-sized wire at times?  tongue.gif

 

  • Maybe you could mount components chosen not just for their stellar audible performance, but also for their aesthetics, thus you can model the Gangnam District of Seoul and turn it into a video that Psy could use?

 

Aside from those super high priority desires of mine...what a fantastic job you're doing with the docs and videos! smile.gif

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post #166 of 189 Old 01-24-2013, 12:47 PM
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Java,

Nice job on the crossover build video!
I'm sure this will help many with anxieties for this portion of DIY speaker-building

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Check out a video of my theater here
CuznEddy Cinema
Officially Hanesamatized on 8/1/09

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post #167 of 189 Old 01-26-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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This is great stuff! You changed it from a "12-part documentary" to a "quick action film."

My only wants when watching it were things like "I wish he used two cameras so we could see what he's doing without his hands getting in the way." 

Maybe for your next build:
  • Have you thought of building a rig with a tiny macro lens that you can move with an overhead "crane" so you can run the camera "through" the crossover at low angle, "driving" around the components like they were buildings, dipping under the mono-rail-sized wire at times?  tongue.gif
  • Maybe you could mount components chosen not just for their stellar audible performance, but also for their aesthetics, thus you can model the Gangnam District of Seoul and turn it into a video that Psy could use?

Aside from those super high priority desires of mine...what a fantastic job you're doing with the docs and videos! smile.gif

I was rushed to get the build finished, so I didn't have time to review the video footage before I wrapped up. In hindsight, I should have put the camera in front of me at a high angle.

My next build with be subs, so I won't do crossovers. In the longer term, I'm thinking of adding rear and height channels (Jeff's Fusion 8?), so I'll have an opportunity to do it right.

I like your idea of the macro lens. I'm using an SLR to shoot the video and have macro lens. Some of the finer parts of the crossover build is the wire twists and soldering. The macro view will help capture that.
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post #168 of 189 Old 01-26-2013, 09:45 PM
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Ha, I was only kidding about the cityscape fly-throughs, but now that you mention using the macro, yeah that would be nice smile.gif In your honor, I even included one crappy low angle macro from cell phone.

(This Christmas, I either wanted to get myself new speakers, a music keyboard, or an interchangeable lens camera like the Sony NEX or a Micro 4/3. Looks like speakers won!
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post #169 of 189 Old 01-27-2013, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Ha, I was only kidding about the cityscape fly-throughs, but now that you mention using the macro, yeah that would be nice smile.gif In your honor, I even included one crappy low angle macro from cell phone.

(This Christmas, I either wanted to get myself new speakers, a music keyboard, or an interchangeable lens camera like the Sony NEX or a Micro 4/3. Looks like speakers won!

Yep. I knew you were kidding, but it got me thinking about the macro lens.

Below is a macro shot of my main crossover build. It would be cool to make a similar view on video.


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post #170 of 189 Old 01-27-2013, 11:03 AM
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Love the narrow depth of field!
Functionally educational and aesthetically pleasing.

Imagine changing the focus in the video like a film rack focus effect smile.gif
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post #171 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 04:38 PM
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Java,

I too have the ADP-170 v2 surrounds. I never thought much of them. However, the mids have literally deteriorated and so they are no longer useable. I am debating going with the Alpha-8 Minion, the Fusion - 8 Alchemy, or maybe even the Fusion-10 Max. I want to go with the Fusion-10's, but need to make a mock box to see how big they will be on the walls. I will eventually build Fusion-15 Sentinel's for the front.

Do you hear these more than the ADP? I don't remember how much the ADP's were, but they couldn't have been cheap. That said, I've always questioned using higher end speakers for surrounds. Since you came from the ADP, how big of a change was it? Do you think the Fusion-10's were overkill and could have used the Alpha-8 or Fusion-8 and got the exact same output?
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post #172 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Java,

I too have the ADP-170 v2 surrounds. I never thought much of them. However, the mids have literally deteriorated and so they are no longer useable. I am debating going with the Alpha-8 Minion, the Fusion - 8 Alchemy, or maybe even the Fusion-10 Max. I want to go with the Fusion-10's, but need to make a mock box to see how big they will be on the walls. I will eventually build Fusion-15 Sentinel's for the front.

Do you hear these more than the ADP? I don't remember how much the ADP's were, but they couldn't have been cheap. That said, I've always questioned using higher end speakers for surrounds. Since you came from the ADP, how big of a change was it? Do you think the Fusion-10's were overkill and could have used the Alpha-8 or Fusion-8 and got the exact same output?

First, I did a modified Fusion-10 Max. Basically the same, but mine were sealed to match my fronts.

Huge improvement over the ADPs. Part is due to going from a dipole to a monopole. And part (a big part) is that these are great speakers even as a standalone. I tested them up front before I mounted them and they gave my fronts a good run for their money.

Your call on overkill. I'm probably not a good one to ask that. biggrin.gif

My rationale on the Fusion-10 Max is that they use the same waveguide and almost the same CD (DNA-360 vs DNA-350) so I'm pretty safe on having the same timbre across fronts to sides. The alpha-8 and fusion-8 use different WG and CD's. They are in the same family, so you may not here much difference. What are you running for your fronts?

For what it's worth, when I build out my additional channels (read/heights), I'll probably use the Fusion-8.
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post #173 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 05:41 PM
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Java, with your fusion tens sealed where are you crossing them over? Also, do you notice impact from your previous surrounds since the fusions are pretty capable with a 10”?
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post #174 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 05:53 PM
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First, I did a modified Fusion-10 Max. Basically the same, but mine were sealed to match my fronts.

Huge improvement over the ADPs. Part is due to going from a dipole to a monopole. And part (a big part) is that these are great speakers even as a standalone. I tested them up front before I mounted them and they gave my fronts a good run for their money.

Your call on overkill. I'm probably not a good one to ask that. biggrin.gif

My rationale on the Fusion-10 Max is that they use the same waveguide and almost the same CD (DNA-360 vs DNA-350) so I'm pretty safe on having the same timbre across fronts to sides. The alpha-8 and fusion-8 use different WG and CD's. They are in the same family, so you may not here much difference. What are you running for your fronts?

For what it's worth, when I build out my additional channels (read/heights), I'll probably use the Fusion-8.

I am currently running B&W DM 603 S2's for L&R and B&W LCR6 S2 for the center. I eventually want to build Sentinel's. I just finished building two of Erich's 4cu ft 18" subs.

What the heck... I think I'm just going to order a pair of Fusion-10's. LOL
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post #175 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Java, with your fusion tens sealed where are you crossing them over? Also, do you notice impact from your previous surrounds since the fusions are pretty capable with a 10”?

I just used the "stock" crossover design. I'll let Tuxedocivic answer if there is a need to cross them differently. They sound great to me, so that's all I need to know.

I'm not sure what you mean on the impact. Are you asking if these kick more than the ADP's? Absolutely. I really notice it on surround music (SACD).
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post #176 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 06:01 PM
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I am currently running B&W DM 603 S2's for L&R and B&W LCR6 S2 for the center. I eventually want to build Sentinel's. I just finished building two of Erich's 4cu ft 18" subs.

What the heck... I think I'm just going to order a pair of Fusion-10's. LOL

good good
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post #177 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 06:16 PM
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I just used the "stock" crossover design. I'll let Tuxedocivic answer if there is a need to cross them differently. They sound great to me, so that's all I need to know.

I'm not sure what you mean on the impact. Are you asking if these kick more than the ADP's? Absolutely. I really notice it on surround music (SACD).
Sorry for the confusion, I meant how low are you running the fusion tens before subs take over? Impact is what I meant on the part thx. Awesome build thread btw and very thorough.
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post #178 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 07:51 PM
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The XO stays the same. For the subwoofer XO, its way more room dependably than anything. The F3 I measured in the sealed box was right around 100hz. Really good for a 98db pro 10". So if you have a nice room bump at 80hz, no problem with an 80hz XO. Maybe even 70hz. If you have a big suck out at 80hz, even with a 12" or 15" you may find 100hz let's the subs fill that in better than your mains. Strictly theoretically, the sealed should XO around 100hz. I hate even saying that because its so room dependent.
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post #179 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 07:55 PM
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Beware using these as surrounds. They are very big! Sealed helps with the size wink.gif
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post #180 of 189 Old 06-10-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Beware using these as surrounds. They are very big! Sealed helps with the size wink.gif
Pardon the noob (me) please. Java built these in 0.75 cubic foot boxes - he used flat packs that are not currently listed. Any .75 cubic foot box should have that same F3 around 100Hz, without regard to shape, right? So I could buy the kit, without the flat pack, throw out the ports and use the baffle to make a box that fits under my soffit say, maybe with an angled back or sides, and not expect much different, right? I'm thinking about shapes like a JBL 8320 or something along those lines.
HopefulFred is online now  
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