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post #1 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I am almost scared to ask this question as I know how the community feels with any modifications of the 4 pi speaker design. Essentially my dilemma is that I have a fixed screen which is 25.5 inches off the floor. This height is non-adjustable and I would really like to use the 4 pi speakers for my theatre.

In order to achieve this I would like to reduce the height of the 4pi speakers by 1 inch and compensate the volume by extending the depth by the appropriate amount to maintain the original volume. I have read comments regarding standing waves and box size etc. The woofer, horn, and port will all remain in the same position as I understand that it would change the characteristics of the cross over.

If I took an inch off the bottom and I compensated by altering the depth to maintain the volume would I expect to hear a drastic change in sound quality? I know this is a hard question to answer without modeling, simulating and calculating but does anyone have any experience or guidance in this area? Any suggestions would be appreciated!
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post #2 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 01:35 PM
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eek.gif so close! as long as you are able to keep the drivers in the same orientation and distance apart, you should be fine. just make sure port length, and overall internal air space remains the same as well. Sure you cant just move the screen up another inch? hehe. While mantha3 and I had our differences at one point, we both figured out we were arguing basically the same point. small mods can be fine, it is when you start really changing stuff up that you get major issues like trying to spread the drivers apart, double up the midbass drivers, etc. Then work has to be done to change the crossover network to compensate...

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post #3 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 01:40 PM
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I doubt 1" would change the tuning much, but you could ask Wayne or model it yourself.

If you XO to subs above Fb it wouldn't matter anyway.

Noah
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post #4 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 01:54 PM
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I'm going to tell Wayne...and then...he will hunt you down! lol

Without calculating port or driver volume...by subtracting an inch from the bottom (keeping the same driver/waveguide/port orientation) you could add 0.5625" to depth. That's really not much. I've seen a lot of mods to Wayne's enclosure design, your's would be the least of my worries, but let Wayne explain any nuances. Port velocity may change some, just guessing.

Noah's correct, crossing over to subs above tuning even if your mod changed tuning ever so slightly, it wouldn't matter.

Edit to add: Cool build! biggrin.gif I was going to build the 4pi's...probably will someday. Do you have all the drivers? You will have a build thread, right? tongue.gif
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post #5 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

I'm going to tell Wayne...and then...he will hunt you down! lol
Without calculating port or driver volume...by subtracting an inch from the bottom (keeping the same driver/waveguide/port orientation) you could add 0.5625" to depth. That's really not much. I've seen a lot of mods to Wayne's enclosure design, your's would be the least of my worries, but let Wayne explain any nuances. Port velocity may change some, just guessing.
Noah's correct, crossing over to subs above tuning even if your mod changed tuning ever so slightly, it wouldn't matter.
Edit to add: Cool build! biggrin.gif I was going to build the 4pi's...probably will someday. Do you have all the drivers? You will have a build thread, right? tongue.gif

I talked to Wayne a little bit about this and he got me thinking it's almost sacrilegious to change the design. Just reading the forums on his site really puts his dedication into perspective.

I am just building one 4 pi speaker for a center channel of my theater build. I'm just sick of the tinny sounding PSB center channel that I have now and I want something with presents that sounds natural and full. Based on the success of this build I will end up building two more, one for the Left and Right. I have the 2226H woofer and I am waiting for stock of the DE250 compression driver so I can order it.

There is something about having the screen close to the floor. I just love the feeling and it's hard to give it up.
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post #6 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 07:42 PM
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ah, i sympathize with wayne. i can only imagine how many ignorant questions he gets asked about modifying his speakers.

switch, your modification is just fine.

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post #7 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 09:43 PM
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I hear ya switch and I know the feeling. I went as far as cutting all the wood for one 4pi enclosure just to see it in the only space I had for it. At the time, I was planning three just as you are now, I just didn't have room for the center. After building a constant directivity speaker system with a smaller footprint than the 4pi, I know now the center would have been unnecessary. I'm doing phantom center right now and the imaging after toe in is superb. Something to consider pulling together drivers for your build.

A far as the de250, the dna360 would be a drop in and it's half the price. It also has a bit more upper end extension, Wayne has said he wouldn't have any problem substituting one for the other.
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post #8 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

I hear ya switch and I know the feeling. I went as far as cutting all the wood for one 4pi enclosure just to see it in the only space I had for it. At the time, I was planning three just as you are now, I just didn't have room for the center. After building a constant directivity speaker system with a smaller footprint than the 4pi, I know now the center would have been unnecessary. I'm doing phantom center right now and the imaging after toe in is superb. Something to consider pulling together drivers for your build.
A far as the de250, the dna360 would be a drop in and it's half the price. It also has a bit more upper end extension, Wayne has said he wouldn't have any problem substituting one for the other.

Yep, Zheka asked about it on the Piforums.



I just finished mine, rockin' the bare MDF.
sneak peak =)
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post #9 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 11:02 PM
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^^^ look'n good.

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post #10 of 30 Old 11-09-2012, 11:26 PM
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A far as the de250, the dna360 would be a drop in and it's half the price. It also has a bit more upper end extension, Wayne has said he wouldn't have any problem substituting one for the other.

WA?????? I know wayne loves that new horn, and I know the response of the dna360 is virtually the same as the de250, I am just glad that Erich has found something to suffice in the eyes of an excellent speaker builder such as Wayne, especially until the de250 comes back in stock more universally. Good thing I have 3 DNA360's of my own (almost).

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post #11 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

^^^ look'n good.

Thanks!

The only speaker yet to be completed is the center channel
I want to make a build thread but I really don't have any pictures.


They sound amazing.... I'm just finally getting time to give them a listen.
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post #12 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 01:01 AM
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now you just have to make them look pretty. :-)

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post #13 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 07:47 AM
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I know beast, I thought it was pretty cool too. Here's Wayne's explanation: http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=73037&&srch=DNA-360#msg_73037
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post #14 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 08:19 AM
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Re: DE250

According to Geddes, the DE250 design has changed recently
The change was significant enough he had to modify the crossover.

I have not seen this discussed anywhere else. have you?
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post #15 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switchg3ar View Post

I am almost scared to ask this question as I know how the community feels with any modifications of the 4 pi speaker design. Essentially my dilemma is that I have a fixed screen which is 25.5 inches off the floor. This height is non-adjustable and I would really like to use the 4 pi speakers for my theatre.
In order to achieve this I would like to reduce the height of the 4pi speakers by 1 inch and compensate the volume by extending the depth by the appropriate amount to maintain the original volume. I have read comments regarding standing waves and box size etc. The woofer, horn, and port will all remain in the same position as I understand that it would change the characteristics of the cross over.
If I took an inch off the bottom and I compensated by altering the depth to maintain the volume would I expect to hear a drastic change in sound quality? I know this is a hard question to answer without modeling, simulating and calculating but does anyone have any experience or guidance in this area? Any suggestions would be appreciated!

I'll be "Captain Obvious", but are you sure you have to change the height? Is it 25.5 inches from the frame or from the screen?

Per below I was able to squeeze an extra 1.5" by leveraging the the frame. Before I landed on the measurments, I mocked up the speakers (built up my center) at the various test heights to ensure the speakers wouldn't encroach on the screen.

Worth a shot before you mess with the proven formula...

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post #16 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 12:16 PM
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Perhaps widen a tad and make the port more square? Shave a half inch on the bottom....

Keep the woofer the same distance from the horn.


I modded the 4PI and I'm loving it
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post #17 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Java View Post

I'll be "Captain Obvious", but are you sure you have to change the height? Is it 25.5 inches from the frame or from the screen?
Per below I was able to squeeze an extra 1.5" by leveraging the the frame. Before I landed on the measurments, I mocked up the speakers (built up my center) at the various test heights to ensure the speakers wouldn't encroach on the screen.
Worth a shot before you mess with the proven formula...

My setup is almost identical to yours, if I didn't mod the speaker the top would be just above the bottom of the screen.

mine.png

With the mod I want it to look similar to yours with the top of the speaker about an inch below the screen.
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post #18 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by switchg3ar View Post

My setup is almost identical to yours, if I didn't mod the speaker the top would be just above the bottom of the screen.
mine.png
With the mod I want it to look similar to yours with the top of the speaker about an inch below the screen.

Bummer. Any option to raise the screen? I was at my limits (needed the space below the molding to let the cleat seat).

If all else fails, you can modify. Looks like you already engaged Wayne on input. If you haven't already, give him options to react to (specific box sizes). He may be more responsive.

Last, it may have already been said, but it's best not to mess the baffle width, so use the depth to make up the difference from the reduced height.

Good luck!!
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post #19 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Re: DE250
According to Geddes, the DE250 design has changed recently
The change was significant enough he had to modify the crossover.
I have not seen this discussed anywhere else. have you?

good info zheka.

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post #20 of 30 Old 11-10-2012, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Re: DE250
According to Geddes, the DE250 design has changed recently
The change was significant enough he had to modify the crossover.
I have not seen this discussed anywhere else. have you?


Wayne is saying that he is not aware of any changes. I guess worst case is to switch over to dna360.
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post #21 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

good info zheka.
Quote:
Originally Posted by switchg3ar View Post

Wayne is saying that he is not aware of any changes. I guess worst case is to switch over to dna360.


I took some measurements of my 4Pis with DNA360 to run by Wayne. He found HF roll off steeper than normal and attributed it to user/measurements error. He is probably right, I am not at all confident in my skills and equipment.
However Geddes mentioned something about the DE250 clones that caught my attention :
Quote:
The single clone sample that I tested, which I have to assume was hand selected, fell pretty much in the middle of what I see in the B&C product. It was no better nor any worse than the original, in fact statistically I could not tell it from the B&C (except just about 15 kHz it appeared to be a little extended). I also do not do calibrated level tests, so I would not have seen a shift in sensitivity between the two products.

LTD02, do you know by any chance if there are differences in sensitivity between the clone and the original? Would a slightly less sensitive CD explain a curve like this?



this is indoor, no gating, fairly nearfield.



this is wayne's measurements for the reference:



what do you think?
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post #22 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 11:52 AM
 
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About the DE250, I think certain crossover configurations are more sensitive to unit-to-unit variations in drivers than others. This kind of crossover would then also be more sensitive to shifts in characteristics at various power levels.

I have not noticed any changes in the DE250 beyond the normal unit-to-unit variations.

About mods, there's nothing "sacred" in my designs but they have the benefit of being mature and well-tested.

Minor dimensional changes don't usually hurt anything but they can change the position of standing waves. This can make anomalies in the midrange. So many DIYers think of the cabinet dimensions only in terms of the Helmholtz cavity resonance and forget about the standing wave resonances. Higher frequency standing waves are damped by the insulation, so in small cabinets, you sort of can disregard them. But in large cabinets, the standing waves line up in the lower midrange where the stuffing is less effective at damping. So position becomes important.

The four Pi has another complication, which is that it is pretty tightly packed. So when people start talking about changing it a little bit, they often find they can't do it without changing the shape and/or position of the port too. By the time they're done, it's really pretty different. The standing waves line up differently, the positions of the driver and the port are different with respect to the internal cabinet boundaries, so the nodes line up differently. I've seen 'em create a big peak in the midrange from what would seem to be a pretty harmless mod.

Some have asked about making the cabinet larger, to increase bass response. My reply is usually the same. I'm not concerned about Helmholtz resonance - That's the easy part. Make the box larger and you gain extension, up to about 5ft3. But again, we move where the standing waves fall. It's like room modes, really, except the range we're concerned with is the lower midrange.

I know of only one mod that has been tested, and so naturally I'm comfortable with that mod. It adds extension by larger size. If you use subs, it isn't necessary, but if you don't mind the extra size, it is worthwhile. Extension is gained, and it doesn't create ripples in response. So it's good. But other mods really should be verified by acoustic measurements. If you don't have a way to perform measurements, my suggestion usually is to stick with the stock plans. Not because it is sacrilege to change, but because you cannot know what you have.

This and more information can be found in the Pi Speakers FAQ.
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post #23 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I took some measurements of my 4Pis with DNA360 to run by Wayne. He found HF roll off steeper than normal and attributed it to user/measurements error.

I forgot that you were using the clone driver, and not a B&C. So I suppose that is another possibility - that it is slightly different.

But I think your measurements look very good. No matter if the smidge extra rolloff is from the measurement system or from the driver, it's a pretty good curve. Not a huge difference there.
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post #24 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Parham View Post

I forgot that you were using the clone driver, and not a B&C. So I suppose that is another possibility - that it is slightly different.
But I think your measurements look very good. No matter if the smidge extra rolloff is from the measurement system or from the driver, it's a pretty good curve. Not a huge difference there.

thank you!
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post #25 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 12:57 PM
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I guess the lesson for me, when it comes to "drop-in replacements", the frequency response is only one consideration. How resilient the crossover network to driver variations maybe an important factor as well.
The only reliable way to really test it would be to take measurments of the drivers in a known good build.
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post #26 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I took some measurements of my 4Pis with DNA360 to run by Wayne. He found HF roll off steeper than normal and attributed it to user/measurements error. He is probably right, I am not at all confident in my skills and equipment.
However Geddes mentioned something about the DE250 clones that caught my attention :
Quote:
The single clone sample that I tested, which I have to assume was hand selected, fell pretty much in the middle of what I see in the B&C product. It was no better nor any worse than the original, in fact statistically I could not tell it from the B&C (except just about 15 kHz it appeared to be a little extended). I also do not do calibrated level tests, so I would not have seen a shift in sensitivity between the two products.


There was a lot of time put into getting the DNA-360 to test how it does. I asked for help from a guy I ran into online that lives over on the west coast. Lots of testing, lots of trials, lots of shipping back and forth, lots of wasted diaphragms, etc. biggrin.gif It took over 6 months.

Geddes asked me about the DNA-360 and I sent him one to test. His findings were the same as when Bwaslo and I later tested the first batch and how the other tests showed in the beginning. They're pretty much identical to the DE250 except the DNA-360 has a better frequency response above 15khz. Of course if you can't hear much above 15khz, then it doesn't really matter anyway. If you can, then the DNA-360 is better. If you can't, then they would sound identical. Personally, I can't hear a difference between the two, even though the mic shows the DNA-360 to be better. You don't have to worry about any sensitivity shifts between the two.
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post #27 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

There was a lot of time put into getting the DNA-360 to test how it does. I asked for help from a guy I ran into online that lives over on the west coast. Lots of testing, lots of trials, lots of shipping back and forth, lots of wasted diaphragms, etc. biggrin.gif It took over 6 months.
Geddes asked me about the DNA-360 and I sent him one to test. His findings were the same as when Bwaslo and I later tested the first batch and how the other tests showed in the beginning. They're pretty much identical to the DE250 except the DNA-360 has a better frequency response above 15khz. Of course if you can't hear much above 15khz, then it doesn't really matter anyway. If you can, then the DNA-360 is better. If you can't, then they would sound identical. Personally, I can't hear a difference between the two, even though the mic shows the DNA-360 to be better. You don't have to worry about any sensitivity shifts between the two.

good to know. thank you.

did you have a chance to look at the Dayton's DE250 clone yet?
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post #28 of 30 Old 11-11-2012, 07:57 PM
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Erich,

what material is the diaphragm in the DNA360 made from?
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post #29 of 30 Old 11-12-2012, 12:11 AM
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Yes, I've tested the Dayton. I don't think their goal was to be an exact DE250 clone or to be a drop in replacement. Maybe something like the bolt on Selenium model. Or possibly something in between both with a titanium or polyimide choice. I'm not sure. But it would need it's own crossover design, which is expected.

If someone was looking for a CD under $60 that could be a drop in replacement, the cheaper DNA-350 could be used. It doesn't have the same low end as the 360 or DE250, but everything above 1200hz is really close.

They all use polyimide for the diaphragm.
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post #30 of 30 Old 11-12-2012, 01:14 AM
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excellent info. thank you.
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