The 'Paint booth' discussion - Paint and Finishing questions - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

No I don't have any pics, I use it at work for all sorts of stuff and don't usually care enough to take any pics lol It makes a nicer finish than the truck bedliner stuff does but not nearly as tough. to make it that smooth, I just thin it out with some reducer we have at work, though IMO, it scratches way to easy when thin. Johns work looks great, with the right air pressure, you can easily repeat his finish. Just takes a bit of practice. I'll be rolling on mine on my 2242H boxes, I only have a gallon left and that won't be enough if I spray it.
O and yes, it works fine to roll out the sprayable version, it just takes more coats. I usually used the fine foam rollers, they work great.

Ahh, thanks for the info N8. How about my airless...think it could work? if so, what tip would you reccomend?


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post #92 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 02:53 PM
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sub'd
Now lets get some folks spraying Duratex with HVLP thats a nice finish too......
FWIW, Acry-Tech pretty much recommends against using a HVLP setup unless you're a high volume cabinet shop. link
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post #93 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Ahh, thanks for the info N8. How about my airless...think it could work? if so, what tip would you reccomend?

i don't know about and airless one, I've not tried that. at work I use my 3M primer gun with a 1.8 tip. This is the gun : http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_EU/BodyshopSolutions/-/Products/NewProducts/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GG880IHA65CELUBU0000000_assetId=1273692243291

I have to admit when 3M brought it out to me, I didn't like the though of a plastic gun with replaceable tips but after using it, you could easily finish your topcoat with it. It's an amazing product. We pay $50 for the gun and the tips are $5 each, though if you clean the tips out, we get 100 uses out of them for primer. Thats the only gun I've ever used with duratex.

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post #94 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 05:04 PM
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Checked out the sprayer and the videos, pretty cool. The price for the sprayer and tips is hard to beat, and as you said, keeping them clean extends the lifespan considerably. I'm just worried about the price at the other end of the system. smile.gif Anything you would recommend in the $2-300 range that I could use the 3M gun with?


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post #95 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 05:44 PM
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I honestly have no idea whats good in that range. We use giant 20K screw compressors at work and I only have a smaller DV 20 gallon one at home but it was $800.

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post #96 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 06:26 PM
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Thanks again. Ya, that's what separates the pro from the amateur right there. I'll keep my eyes open for a deal and I may have to employ the services of a body shop, but that's the last resort! What's the typical rate vs. buying a hvlp system to diy?


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post #97 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 06:58 PM
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You can get a 60 gallon / 240V compressor. They have plenty of airflow. They're not quite $200-300 new though.
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post #98 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 07:55 PM
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Well, not sure how big the tank is, but the compressor that came with the house "because it was too heavy to move" is a 240v compressor. Would I just need an air regulator and shut off valve between the compressor and gun? S**t...if that's all I need...I'm doing it. Edit: Tank is 3'X1'.

What psi to shoot the spray grade duratex?

Gorilla, sorry to derail, man.


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post #99 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Gorilla, sorry to derail, man.

This is totally relevant! More Duratex talk please, keep it coming. biggrin.gif


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post #100 of 138 Old 12-07-2012, 08:26 PM
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Sweet. Excellent thread title btw.


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post #101 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Well, not sure how big the tank is, but the compressor that came with the house "because it was too heavy to move" is a 240v compressor. Would I just need an air regulator and shut off valve between the compressor and gun? S**t...if that's all I need...I'm doing it. Edit: Tank is 3'X1'.

What psi to shoot the spray grade duratex?

Gorilla, sorry to derail, man.

Pressure is not the problem, volume is. See howany GPM your gun choice requires and look up the specs on the compressor.

HVLPs can outrun most residential compressors. Normally need like >10-15GPM at least for most setups.
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post #102 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Well, not sure how big the tank is, but the compressor that came with the house "because it was too heavy to move" is a 240v compressor. Would I just need an air regulator and shut off valve between the compressor and gun? S**t...if that's all I need...I'm doing it. Edit: Tank is 3'X1'.
What psi to shoot the spray grade duratex?
Well, you'd want some filtration and moisture removal too. See if you can find CFM ratings printed on the compressor (or Google the make / model number). Make sure they're higher than what the HVLP gun you're planning to use requires.
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Pressure is not the problem, volume is. See how many GPM your gun choice requires and look up the specs on the compressor.
HVLPs can outrun most residential compressors. Normally need like >10-15GPM at least for most setups.
In my experience it's usually CFM, not GPM. Most 240V compressors can keep up with a small or medium size HVLP. 120V ones can't. My "residential" 240V / 60 gallon compressor can do 13.4CFM @ 40PSI / 11.5CFM @ 90 PSI. That's enough for most HVLP setups I've seen.
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post #103 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 06:32 AM
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So, Duratex (roller grade) on MDF.. I know I need to fill and sand, but do I need to prime MDF first? According to the Duratex website this product is both a primer and a paint. But I know MDF is very porous...
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post #104 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So, Duratex (roller grade) on MDF.. I know I need to fill and sand, but do I need to prime MDF first? According to the Duratex website this product is both a primer and a paint. But I know MDF is very porous...

See Stereodude's posts on the last page when he applied Duratex directly to cardboard.

I used a primer last time because I was worried my filled (wood filler) spots would come through the duratex. I know they recommend using drywall compound to fill, but I've also seen pictures of others with issues with that method as well. I would use a dark (or black) latex or primer as a base to be safe. Myself and others have had success with that approach. I know it's not "required" and this may be overkill but it works for me - your mileage may vary. smile.gif


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post #105 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Looks awesome! Great information for others on here as well, so thank you for sharing.
What product would you recommend to seal the surface? Black latex?

Some higher solid latexes may work, but the safest route to go would be and solvent based primer (Kilz Oil, Problock Oil, BIN, etc). That's not to say
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lol, maybe. He certainly has a eye for detail and is clearly skilled, beautiful speakers and theater. I PM'd him a few times during his build, a true gentleman.
Thanks, Bill. I do have a Graco airless X7, not sure if I can get a tip that could atomize the spray grade duratex well enough or not. Not sure I'd want to stick a $55 can of paint under it to try! lol.

I would be hesitant to try spraying unthinned through an X7. The max tip size on the X7 is a .017 (typical size recommended for architectural paints) I've never airlessly sprayed Duratex but I envision it being similar to spraying Drylok (pain in the ass) Definitely remove all your filters if you do try to spray it
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post #106 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 07:42 AM
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Some higher solid latexes may work, but the safest route to go would be and solvent based primer (Kilz Oil, Problock Oil, BIN, etc).
Solvent based primers beneath water based coatings can lead to bubbling unless the primer is totally cured, which can take weeks. Alcohol based primers are generally OK, as they cure rapidly.

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post #107 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Solvent based primers beneath water based coatings can lead to bubbling unless the primer is totally cured, which can take weeks. Alcohol based primers are generally OK, as they cure rapidly.

Bill - I used a latex based primer last time which dried for a week or so before coating and had no issues. Have you had luck with something like this?


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post #108 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 08:01 AM
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I have used this:
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=37

With Krylon spray paint with no issues on MDF. Turned out well.
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post #109 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 09:10 AM
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Bill - I used a latex based primer last time which dried for a week or so before coating and had no issues. Have you had luck with something like this?
I don't use a primer with DuraTex, it's self priming. I've seen others prime with black latex paint to color the cab so that they don't need to use as much DuraTex. But I only use it on pro-sound cabs, where thicker is better.

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post #110 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I don't use a primer with DuraTex, it's self priming. I've seen others prime with black latex paint to color the cab so that they don't need to use as much DuraTex. But I only use it on pro-sound cabs, where thicker is better.

Bill, have you used Duratex on MDF without priming?
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post #111 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So, Duratex (roller grade) on MDF.. I know I need to fill and sand, but do I need to prime MDF first? According to the Duratex website this product is both a primer and a paint. But I know MDF is very porous...
I would definitely paint the "end grain" of the MDF with something and give it ample time to dry (and don't sand through it afterward) before putting Duratex on MDF.
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post #112 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I would definitely paint the "end grain" of the MDF with something and give it ample time to dry (and don't sand through it afterward) before putting Duratex on MDF.

Like an oil based primer or shillac?
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post #113 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:15 AM
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Like an oil based primer or shillac?
Based on what I read mixing oils with waterborne finishes is not a good idea unless you really give the oils a long time to cure / out gas. Since I know us DIY'ers are impatient a latex primer / paint is probably a better bet.
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post #114 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Based on what I read mixing oils with waterborne finishes is not a good idea unless you really give the oils a long time to cure / out gas. Since I know us DIY'ers are impatient a latex primer / paint is probably a better bet.

That makes sense. Thanks. And yes, I am not the most patient person once I get rolling on a project...
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post #115 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:21 AM
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Bill, have you used Duratex on MDF without priming?
I don't use MDF.

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post #116 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:26 AM
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I don't use MDF.

I don't usually either... But I am building four 5cu ft enclosures and there is a sale on MDF here... It is about 1/3rd the cost of local Baltic Birch... And I just bought a snow blower since I am tired of shoveling so it ate into my fun budget...

I am going to give my father a call, he is a custom home builder and has a couple of pro painters he has used for 20+ years that might be able to give me some advice as well.
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post #117 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 10:28 AM
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Duratex over bare MDF works fine. There is nothing wrong with using MDF, It's just messy. There are lots that will give reasons both ways but in reality, it makes no difference what you use other than your pocket book and how easy it is to work with. I use both and for anything under 3 CF, I always use MDF, the extra weight is needed over ply in a box that small IMO.

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post #118 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Solvent based primers beneath water based coatings can lead to bubbling unless the primer is totally cured, which can take weeks. Alcohol based primers are generally OK, as they cure rapidly.

This isn't common nor accurate. Universal primers like the ones I referenced can be topcoated by a number of coatings so long as recoat windows are adhered too. Every single day of the week I spec, spray, roll, and trouble shoot clients on coatings systems. Not a single time has this issue occurred. It is common, however, for people to apply hotter solvent topcoats that blister the prime coat (ie lacquer over alkyd, xylene over alkyd, etc) Slow dry alkyd primer with latex topcoat is a fantastic system, that far exceeds the performance of a latex/latex system when applied to wood.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Based on what I read mixing oils with waterborne finishes is not a good idea unless you really give the oils a long time to cure / out gas. Since I know us DIY'ers are impatient a latex primer / paint is probably a better bet.

This advice is no different than any other system. There are quick drying alkyd primers that have 45minute recoats or 24hr recoats. I've been on sites where latex over latex has caused outgassing, which is why the most important aspect is finding a compliant system and following recoat windows.


I will admit that for most a latex over latex system is the most user friendly, but I will forever maintain a slow dry alkyd/latex system is a superior wood finish (although my true love would be a catlyzed lacquer system)
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post #119 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

This isn't common nor accurate. Universal primers like the ones I referenced can be topcoated by a number of coatings so long as recoat windows are adhered too. Every single day of the week I spec, spray, roll, and trouble shoot clients on coatings systems. Not a single time has this issue occurred.
I wouldn't have brought it up if I had not experienced it myself, after the advertised recoat window had passed. Murphy's Law taken into consideration I haven't tempted fate by repeating that experience.

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post #120 of 138 Old 12-08-2012, 02:08 PM
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I also use solvent under water then a solvent topcoat. I've done this every day for the last 6 years, 4 to 5 times a day. I've yet to ever have one problem. I'd say Bill you had something else going on. My wood working friends also do the same thing and he said he's also never had a problem.

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