Duel sealed 15s Vs Tuba HT? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a quick question. I have been planning on doing two sealed DIY builds for awhile. Due to $$$ issues I have had to put it off for awhile, but lucky me ( I think?) we are really short staffed at my job and so i have been scheduled 11 days in a row. One day off. Then another 6 days in a row. Not sure if that is legal considering I am 17 and I am in high school but oh well.

Anyways I had been planning on two sealed boxes with two TC sounds LMS-15s with a EP4000. Using a MiniDSP with a Omnimic for EQ.

Then I read about these...

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html

I think they sound like a awesome idea. I am in a room that is 12X13X a triangle ceiling. So the lowest point is 4' high and the highest point is 10-12'.

I don't know anything about those types of subwoofers though. So I was hoping for some advice from the pros. I like the idea of them more because I can buy the plans for them. Everything is already designed. I don't have to worry how to do the bracing etc.

I currently have a Rythmik Fv12P. I think it is a nice sub, but I am dying to try DIY. The Rythmik just doesn't really have the SPL or the extension in movies I would like. Its a great sub, I just want more I guess. I haven't even built a sub yet and I have the bug to always want more. biggrin.gif

I watch a lot of movies and listen to a lot of music. I listen to about anything in the music area. Anything from Jazz, Rocky horror Picture Show, Country, Dubstep etc. Just about everything. When I listen to dubstep I really like having that "crazy" level of LF. I use Arx A5s as my mains. I would prolly do the Xover around 60-80Hz.

Thank you guys!
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post #2 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 07:58 AM
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The THT (horn sub) will most certainly have more SPL but the duel 15's in a sealed cabinet will likely go down lower. You might look into LiLmikes F-20 as it is also a horn sub and is just as good as the THT.
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post #3 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 08:00 AM
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So you have about 1200 cu ft. That's a small room and 2 sealed high travel 15's would cover it fairly well wink.gif. But... you could save a bunch of cash by doing the THT and have plenty of SPL there too. The sealed boxes will play a little lower and allow more flexibility in placement, but you could always build more horns later. It really depends on what build you think would be more fun.
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post #4 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

So you have about 1200 cu ft. That's a small room and 2 sealed high travel 15's would cover it fairly well wink.gif. But... you could save a bunch of cash by doing the THT and have plenty of SPL there too. The sealed boxes will play a little lower and allow more flexibility in placement, but you could always build more horns later. It really depends on what build you think would be more fun.

I was really considering the horn sub because it will be so much cheaper.... plus a horn would be fun to build. I don't have to design it my self. I might come back and build two THTs...
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post #5 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 02:22 PM
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build the f-20 over the tht for many reasons, but most obvious, the build requirements. you could build 4 f-20s by the time you build 1 tht.
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post #6 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

build the f-20 over the tht for many reasons, but most obvious, the build requirements. you could build 4 f-20s by the time you build 1 tht.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, and in the case of tapped horns it's excursion and distortion. The THT has lower excursion than the F20 for the same input, so its displacement limited output is higher, and its distortion is lower. Not that it matters at sensible levels, but staying at sensible levels isn't always the intent when one builds either of these.

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post #7 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 02:55 PM
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"There's no such thing as a free lunch, and in the case of tapped horns it's excursion and distortion. The THT has lower excursion than the F20 for the same input, so its displacement limited output is higher, and its distortion is lower. Not that it matters at sensible levels, but staying at sensible levels isn't always the intent when one builds either of these."

those are front loaded horns, not tapped horns.

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post #8 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"There's no such thing as a free lunch, and in the case of tapped horns it's excursion and distortion. The THT has lower excursion than the F20 for the same input, so its displacement limited output is higher, and its distortion is lower. Not that it matters at sensible levels, but staying at sensible levels isn't always the intent when one builds either of these."
those are front loaded horns, not tapped horns.
My mistake, I saw a pic of a large tapped horn in the F20 thread and thought that was it. In any event an excursion chart I came across in the F20 thread shows higher excursion than the THT, reinforcing my mistaken assumption. Just having looked at a build pic of the F20 the parts count is similar to the THTLP save for the lack of bracing, which IMO isn't optional equipment.

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post #9 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 03:12 PM
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minor miss. the excursion of the f20 is a little higher because it is tuned a little lower. tradeoffs. ;-)

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post #10 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 04:32 PM
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I built the "low profile" version of the THT. It was fun to build and I am very pleased with how it turned out. Here's my build thread, though it isn't entirely relevant to your THT plans: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1327401/ready-to-diy-starting-with-a-tht-low-profile-sub

For your room with the 4 ft walls and slanted ceiling, making some big horn subs seems like a good idea. You can place them near the 4 ft walls without really losing usable floor space (since the ceiling is too low to stand there anyway). The THT and F20 are both under 4ft tall.

Go for it!

-Max
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post #11 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 04:56 PM
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may not be free lunch, but there is free plans. f20 has great documentation and plans for free, THT plans=$$$.
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post #12 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 05:01 PM
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You could also make the lp version of the tht and lay in on its side. Make it into a bench or table. Get creative.

Here's what I did with mine

Shttp://www.avsforum.com/t/1438536/dual-thtlp-architectural-series#post_22584862

Just one would load up that room big time and they have great sound quality. Two in that space would be kinda nuts. That would be the advantage of the smaller subs. Easier placement.

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post #13 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

So you have about 1200 cu ft. That's a small room and 2 sealed high travel 15's would cover it fairly well wink.gif. But... you could save a bunch of cash by doing the THT and have plenty of SPL there too. The sealed boxes will play a little lower and allow more flexibility in placement, but you could always build more horns later. It really depends on what build you think would be more fun.

Yeah I think two sealed 15s would be nice. My only thing is that they are so much more expensive. $433 for each driver, the EP4000watt amp. I would be getting up above the $1K real quick. I am planning on two THT subs on each side of my couch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxcooper View Post

I built the "low profile" version of the THT. It was fun to build and I am very pleased with how it turned out. Here's my build thread, though it isn't entirely relevant to your THT plans: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1327401/ready-to-diy-starting-with-a-tht-low-profile-sub
For your room with the 4 ft walls and slanted ceiling, making some big horn subs seems like a good idea. You can place them near the 4 ft walls without really losing usable floor space (since the ceiling is too low to stand there anyway). The THT and F20 are both under 4ft tall.
Go for it!
-Max

One will be on the 4' wall. Yeah I used to have the rack over there. I kept hitting my head on the ceiling so I quickly moved it to the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

You could also make the lp version of the tht and lay in on its side. Make it into a bench or table. Get creative.
Here's what I did with mine
Shttp://www.avsforum.com/t/1438536/dual-thtlp-architectural-series#post_22584862
Just one would load up that room big time and they have great sound quality. Two in that space would be kinda nuts. That would be the advantage of the smaller subs. Easier placement.

I like the idea of having the huge subwoofers. I dont have a wife so there is no WAF. I have two perfect spots picked out for them already. biggrin.gif

I do have a few questions though.

1. What amp do you guys recommend for two THT subs using the Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15'' driver in each one? I don't really want to use a plate amp... Id rather it be in the rack.
2. I have seen some people glue everything together and some people glue and screw everything together? I was planning on using TiteBondII as the glue. I am unsure about what screws to use... Advice?
3. How much better will two sound compared to my Fv12P?..
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post #14 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus1095 View Post

Yeah I think two sealed 15s would be nice. My only thing is that they are so much more expensive. $433 for each driver, the EP4000watt amp. I would be getting up above the $1K real quick. I am planning on two THT subs on each side of my couch.
One will be on the 4' wall. Yeah I used to have the rack over there. I kept hitting my head on the ceiling so I quickly moved it to the other side.
I like the idea of having the huge subwoofers. I dont have a wife so there is no WAF. I have two perfect spots picked out for them already. biggrin.gif
I do have a few questions though.
1. What amp do you guys recommend for two THT subs using the Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15'' driver in each one? I don't really want to use a plate amp... Id rather it be in the rack.
2. I have seen some people glue everything together and some people glue and screw everything together? I was planning on using TiteBondII as the glue. I am unsure about what screws to use... Advice?
3. How much better will two sound compared to my Fv12P?..

1. I use one of these for each sub. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-813

Use this driver. Not the HO. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-190

2. Don't use tight bond. Use Loctite PL Premium 3x.

3. Horn subs sound great. Tight sound. No bloat. No port noise.

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post #15 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

1. I use one of these for each sub. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-813
Use this driver. Not the HO. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-190
2. Don't use tight bond. Use Loctite PL Premium 3x.
3. Horn subs sound great. Tight sound. No bloat. No port noise.

1. They are so expensive for that price, I could buy a EP2000 or something... Ya know? Whats the benefit of those? Just curious. redface.gif
Whats wrong with the other driver? Again Just curious not trying to argue or something lol. Is there any other drivers I should be looking at?
2. Ok I will pick up a few
3. Fantastic. I just ordered the plans.
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post #16 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

may not be free lunch, but there is free plans. f20 has great documentation and plans for free, THT plans=$$$.
If $14.95 breaks your budget you've chosen the wrong hobby. smile.gif

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post #17 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 08:50 PM
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These are the recommended drivers. They also work in the F-20. I don't believe the HO works.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-190
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post #18 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 11:54 PM
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Concerning screws, read the plans when you get them. You definitely want to use PL Premium glue. And you don't necessarily need screws, but they can be helpful to hold panels in place and pull them together while the glue is drying. A brad nailer can be useful for this, too. However, for every brad or screw that you use, remember that they don't hold the sub together (the glue does that), and you will probably need to fill the hole and sand it before you put the final finish on (unless you're using carpet). Having just spent 2 hours sanding the Bondo off two AutoTuba subs, I think I will seek to use as few brads as possible next time. smile.gif

-Max
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post #19 of 28 Old 11-15-2012, 11:57 PM
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Concerning amps, I just picked the Crown XLS 1500 and will be using one channel of it to power my THTLP most of the time. I wrote up my evaluation of a few different options, and why I picked the Crown in this post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432336/build-log-a-pair-of-autotubas/30#post_22592850
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post #20 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus1095 View Post

1. They are so expensive for that price, I could buy a EP2000 or something... Ya know? Whats the benefit of those? Just curious. redface.gif
Whats wrong with the other driver? Again Just curious not trying to argue or something lol. Is there any other drivers I should be looking at?
2. Ok I will pick up a few
3. Fantastic. I just ordered the plans.
They are a bit more but they have no fans. I can adjust phase and gain separately. And they look cool. And I guess if one craps out I still have another going.

The HO isn't one of the recommended drivers for the tht. It takes very specific drivers. Everything is in the plans.

FOLLOW THE PLANS and you can't go wrong. Two tips though.

1. Wax paper between the material and your clamping equipment. Glue won't stick to it.

2. Epoxy the nuts in for the driver. I used pl on mine and didn't have a problem but epoxy has saved my butt and a recent build I did.

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post #21 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxcooper View Post

Concerning screws, read the plans when you get them. You definitely want to use PL Premium glue. And you don't necessarily need screws, but they can be helpful to hold panels in place and pull them together while the glue is drying. A brad nailer can be useful for this, too. However, for every brad or screw that you use, remember that they don't hold the sub together (the glue does that), and you will probably need to fill the hole and sand it before you put the final finish on (unless you're using carpet). Having just spent 2 hours sanding the Bondo off two AutoTuba subs, I think I will seek to use as few brads as possible next time. smile.gif
-Max

Ok, I got the plans this morning. I will read through them today. Everyone says use a different glue? Titebon PL Premium etc. Is there a huge difference? I was planning on using 4 large clamps with two perfect square things. If I can I would like to avoid screws or nails. I don't really want to have to go back with the sand putty stuff and fill it in. Then sand it back down etc. I will if I need too though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

They are a bit more but they have no fans. I can adjust phase and gain separately. And they look cool. And I guess if one craps out I still have another going.
The HO isn't one of the recommended drivers for the tht. It takes very specific drivers. Everything is in the plans.
FOLLOW THE PLANS and you can't go wrong. Two tips though.
1. Wax paper between the material and your clamping equipment. Glue won't stick to it.
2. Epoxy the nuts in for the driver. I used pl on mine and didn't have a problem but epoxy has saved my butt and a recent build I did.

They do look really good. That is true, very simple and sleek. I already read a thread on the THT forum that said make sure you follow everystep to the period. They are there for a reason.
1. Oh ok thats a good idea... I will add that to my list.
2. What is Epoxy? Nuts in the driver? I haven't read through the guide but that is one thing I dont know how to do is mount the driver....
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post #22 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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So reading through these instructions... Yeah... I am lost... I really didn't think it would be this difficult. I can't even follow along with the instructions... I don't really want to post too much on this thread. In case I break some copyright law
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post #23 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 07:41 AM
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There's a reason folks publish plans for horns, but not for simple sealed boxes... the latter are a lot easier to build, and most folks can see that's needed. I'm not familiar with Bill's work, but I would take brian6751's advice seriously if you choose to go ahead with the build. You may be able to find a lumber store that will cut things down for you, but 6 square panels will be cheaper than the odd cuts of a horn design. I've built horns, and they do work very well, but I would never suggest someone your age start there, unless you had lots of woodworking experience or a supervised shop.

Stepping back, the only trick to building rectangular boxes is accounting for material thickness. It's easy to calculate interior volume by subtracting 2x material thickness from outside dimensions. A simple box results from:
- 2 panels outside dimensions
- 2 panels inside dimensions
- 2 panels ID in one direction, OD in the other.

The first and third pairs form a cylinider, the second pair are plugs in the ends. And if you can get straight, square cuts, any good wood glue and clamps are all you need to assemble. Then there's the holes....

HAve fun,
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post #24 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 08:37 AM
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>> Titebond PL Premium etc. Is there a huge difference?

Yes, PL Premium expands as it hardens, so it will fill any little gaps that you may have. And its very strong. Both very important especially if you don't want to use nails / screws.

>>2. What is Epoxy? Nuts in the driver? I haven't read through the guide but that is one thing I dont know how to do is mount the driver

Epoxy is a two part glue, adheres well to metal and glue - used to glue T nuts or hurricane nuts into the panel that the driver is mounted on - the driver then is bolted to those glued in nuts.

>> So reading through these instructions... Yeah... I am lost... I really didn't think it would be this difficult. I can't even follow along with the instructions... I don't really want to post too much on this thread. In case I break some copyright law

Bill has his own forum, might be better to ask the BFM build specific questions there, there are authorized (pro) builders that make them all the time and would be able to answer any question you might come up with.

>>What amp do you guys recommend for two THT subs using the Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15'' driver in each one? I don't really want to use a plate amp... Id rather it be in the rack.

I used a QSC RMX850 that I had used before for a rack guitar/synth setup. Behringer, QSC, Crown, etc. all make suitable rackable power amps, check eBay or craigslist.

>>I have seen some people glue everything together and some people glue and screw everything together? I was planning on using TiteBondII as the glue. I am unsure about what screws to use... Advice?

I used drywall screws - its actually not that important what kind of screws, they are just there to keep things tight while the glue dries.
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post #25 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
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So reading through these instructions... Yeah... I am lost... I really didn't think it would be this difficult. I can't even follow along with the instructions... I don't really want to post too much on this thread. In case I break some copyright law
If you can follow directions you can build them. The most important directions were those contained in the cover email that accompanied your plans.

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post #26 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 11:05 AM
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There is no disagreement on which glue to use to build a THT: use PL Premium. smile.gif

Read my THTLP build thread that I linked above. It has lots of pictures and details, some of which are applicable to the THT. There are some recent THT build threads, too. That will give you some tips and additional details. It may seem overwhelming at first, but it makes sense one you get into the build. Take it one step at a time and you'll be able to do it. Ask questions if you get stuck.

-Max
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post #27 of 28 Old 11-16-2012, 09:11 PM
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I bought the THT plans from Bill but in the end decided to build the F20 because it fit my room better. Either would be an excellent choice. I think the F20 is a little easier to cut and assemble but if you follow the plans one step at a time the THT would go together the same way. The sound you'll get will blow you away. They're really that good.

I used pocket screws on mine on the side that faces the room and screwed from the outside on the side that faces the wall. It was a reverse from the plans but doesn't affect anything sound wise. The pocket screws are great for projects like this. You slap down the glue (read PL Premium!) and screw it together and it is rock solid and set immediately. Just pre-assemble it before you glue and all of the pilot holes will already be there. You could always clamp the last side and glue for a complete screw-free look if you want. Then slap some paint on and pour the juice to it and you're done. I built mine in a weekend and then painted it and moved it in. No matter which sub you choose you're going to be happy with it. wink.gif
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post #28 of 28 Old 11-18-2012, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you guys for the advice. I will for sure check out the THTs forum. I ran into a slight issue... Rain + driving too fast + no tread on my front tires (I can see the belts) = guard rail.... They are thinking my car is totaled.... I am fine, Just my car is tore up. I am taking it to the shop tomorrow... So I have to put the subwoofer plans on hold until I can get this car issue fixed. So I will return to this as soon as I can.
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