Need a new dream to chase - help me find great Home theater DIY speakers to build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 54 Old 11-26-2012, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Need a new dream to chase - help me find great Home theater DIY speakers to build.

Hallo guys.




So im looking for a new dream to presu, i need a little dream in my belly to work on, so i came here to get this new dream.
Will be using thise for home theater and cd´s from my oppo BD95 - 70/30% use

Im looking for a whole new setup of speakers for my HT, i currently run 2 1/2 fronts " SEAS Excel element/ Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" i really like the ribbon sound for movies. SR are M&K k4 tripoles and M&K s-85pro

I drive this whit a Onkyo NR 906 and a Yammaha MX-1000 power amp.
i will be upgrading this at some point to pre+ power 2/3ch + 5ch, haven't decided on anything yet..

Well to start of, i have seen speakers like the Super V

and others similar, and i have no clue what of this will work in a HT setup, so post away, post builds and ill comment back until i have found my new next set of speakers,.

ill add that i like the 2 1/2 - full range as fronts for movie sound, they just bring a bigger sound-stage imo. but im open for anything if i get a sound explanation on why x =y






Right now i have got advice on these type of builds.


SEOS Deltalite-12

Been looking abit on these, and i wonder if im gonna miss something vs a 2 1/2 - 3 way speaker? can this be made into a 3 way if so, dose it up the sound quality if one added in a 8-10" mid and had the 12-15" as a mid/bass unit??
And how are the DENOVO DNA-360 COMPRESSION DRIVER sounding, i rather like the ribbon sound i have now, is this similar, How do it handle voices ect.



Zaph ZA5.5s
only looked breef on thise looks good




The TriTrix
only looked breef on thise looks good, but small smile.gif

Drivers recommended.

Alpair 7 FAST for Main R&L with Alpair 7's Vented for Center and Rear R&L.
or
TANG BAND W4 /W3 flat cone
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post #2 of 54 Old 11-26-2012, 06:32 AM
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There are lots of possibilities that you could go with. Are these speakers going to be used mainly for home theater? What is your budget? If these will be for used for mostly home theater, then I would recommend a high efficiency design such as the Seos-12 or 4pi as they are extremely good for the money and are comparable to speakers from the big box companies that would most likely cost more than $3,000 bucks+, if not more. If you really want to go all out on the high effeciency build, then I would look at either the TAD 2001's, TAD 4001's, or the cheaper Radian 950PB's mated with a Truextent behryllam (sp?) diaphragm. As far as woofers to use, I have heard nothing but great things about the JBL's and Eminance woofers.

As far as these CD's that I mentioned, those Seas Excel's and Fountek's are going to be hard to beat for clarity and detail. If you could come up with a good design, the RAAL is pretty hard to beat and would likely best your Seas and Fountek's. You could always go with the RAAL's for the tweets, and the Accutons for mids, then what ever would fit best for the lows. That would really expensive though!

Honestly, I don't know much about this stuff, as I am trying to learn as much as I possibly can before I start on the Seos-12 build that I have been planning. I think the biggest hurdle that you will have to jump is the crossover for which ever speaker you end up going with. You really need to learn as much as possible about the crossovers before building them, and that goes for both passive and active crossovers.

Good luckl!
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post #3 of 54 Old 11-26-2012, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the tad recomandations,

well yea i wat thinking not to go over 800$ pr speaker- for the front 3, and if needed i could go whit used units for tweeters/units is the upgrade in sound quality warrent it, to keep budget. wink.gif
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post #4 of 54 Old 11-26-2012, 09:46 AM
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do you have any subwoofers?

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post #5 of 54 Old 11-26-2012, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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yes i have 2x kef 4000 subs long throw 12" driver, 500W amp class D



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post #6 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 04:40 AM
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I have a similar budget for my DIY front LCR's. Everyone seems to recommend the Seos-12's or 4pi's for that sort of price range. From the advise that I have been given, either of those will work fantasticly. It seems that you would have to spend a whole lot more cash to get better performance than the Seos-12's or 4pi's. I have looked into building a trio of front LCR's that would use Radian 475's or 735's for the top end, then using JBL 2226 woofers, (not sure on the horns), all ran actively, but, the experts that I have consulted with all seem to agree that building either a Seos-12 matted with a JBL 2226 and a DNA-360, or even a 4pi, would best the Radian/JBL combo, and, be much easier to build since there is already an existing crossover design for that combo. The TAD's that I mentioned are over $1,000 bucks each, so that might not be an option for you as you stated that your budget is $800 per speaker. I hope this helps! I am new to this myself, and after many hours of reading a talking to various members, the Seos-12 or 4pi's seem to be the best thing out right now. I was even told by one member that these speakers would cost somewhere between $3,500 and $4,500 bucks if purchased through a tradional retail shop!
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post #7 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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yea well i have zoomed in now,


im currently thinking of making the seos 12, but whit a twist, if the twist i want can be done whit out a large effort, ill go this route, if not , then im back to square one again. smile.gif aas im not in a super hurry.




I found these 3 cabinets types, maby the width of the seos 12 can be keept, So maby the Daniel speaker from above pic, and the seos 12/15 on bottom in its own cabinet, if the width can be the same as the seos design, something like that, making it a 2 1/2 way




Or like this all drivers in its own section of cabinet.




or maby a seos 12 and then the mid range woofers on top, and the full design seos bottom, like this picture, ?? keeping the seos design and make a box fit the extra mids and the mid´s placed on-top like the 3th picture, whita miniDps running them.
whats the cost of a active crossover?
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post #8 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 12:16 PM
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Stated a little differently from the other thread, a very practical solution is to build bwaslo's Daniel exactly as-is. That avoids custom crossover work for the mid & high range.

Then build a separate bass box for the 15" woofer of your choosing. Make the baffle of the bass box the same width as Daniel. Adjust height so that, with Daniel sitting atop the bass box, the center of the WG is the same height as your ears at your listening position. Depth of the bass box can be adjusted to achieve proper box volume for whatever woofer you choose. (Tip...sealed boxes are smaller and more forgiving than ported.)

Crossover from the Daniel to the bass box can be active DSP so you don't have to learn passive crossover design (I've been doing passives for decades and still learn new tricks). You could adjust the DSP crossover by ear to get you going but, with 99.44% certainty, it will perform be better if/when you or a friend have the capability to perform quality measurements.


PS: The SEOS 12 is not a speaker, it is the waveguide used in several speaker designs...the DIY speaker pictured in your last post is the Daniel. The SEOS 15 is another WG used in other speaker designs. The term SEOS has nothing to do with woofers.

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post #9 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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yea but i don't really know if i want aura mid´s /

what about the idea of a seos 12 and then the sears ontop in a box like the last pic,but ohh darn then the crossover is at it again right, bc its xo is higher. and if i build daniel whit the sears ill need a new ox again for the box
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post #10 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 01:05 PM
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You would use a little lower XO on the W18s than you have now...but you're right, all new passive crossover design....unless you went fully active with the SEOS, W18s, 15" woofer and DSP.

However, you really would need good quality measurement capability. Zero chance of getting that 3-way combo even close by ear.

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post #11 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 01:07 PM
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What is the point of doing this as a "2 1/2 way" or 3 way design if you are going to crossover to the subwoofer anyway? Most of the SEOS designs have enough extension to get down into the typical 80Hz crossover range. If you were really concerned about strong bass, I would just get some beefier subs.
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post #12 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 01:26 PM
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It isn't about bass...he doesn't want to sacrifice the pristine mids his W18s provide.

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post #13 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

It isn't about bass...he doesn't want to sacrifice the pristine mids his W18s provide.

yep this is basic the thing, pnw says here.

after having the w18 for a while im properly spoiled on the mid-range , fast and detailed , and a bigger woofer on paper cant match that - reason for 12"-15" is more dynamicks plus the cd driver + horn combo looks interesting.

and if i make em 2 1/2 or 3way in my mind they will preform great whit music whit no sub, that's why i wanted them to go low around 40-45hz and then whit ports "maby" they will do 35hz and i can put in port plugs for when i watch movies.

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Originally Posted by pnw View Post

You would use a little lower XO on the W18s than you have now...but you're right, all new passive crossover design....unless you went fully active with the SEOS, W18s, 15" woofer and DSP.
However, you really would need good quality measurement capability. Zero chance of getting that 3-way combo even close by ear.

now im a beginner for crossovers making and active , what would active setup cost?? what do you need total of components.

i got a yeti "blue microphones" it got omni if i need that.






Off topic just saw thise videos, awsome sound track, and that horn look amasing








smile.gif
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post #14 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 06:48 PM
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You would be making a full 3-way (low, mid, hi)...2.5-way with two mids isn't an option for SEOS integration.

You can spend as much as you want on electronics so, for a set of 3 LCRs, you'll need:
-DSP crossover with three input channels and nine output channels. (Don't know what this means in term of the mini-DSP as I haven't used one...it would take 2 ea DCX2496.)
-One amp channel per speaker, per "way"...so nine amp channels, including three you probably already have.
-Cables to wire the equipment.

You'll need a measurement microphone like the Behringer ECM8000 + measurement software. I haven't used it but the Omni-mic package gets good reviews.



If this is looking too expensive, maybe ease into the project by building the 15" bass box and using an active XO to your existing speakers (size the bass box for a Daniel top, or, a Daniel-like box for SEOS + W18s). That would reduce the DSP to 3 in, 6 out, and 6 total amp channels. The modular approach would get you quick success and facilitate going deeper into DIY as time and money permit. Measurement capability is highly recommended for even this first step, but you might get in the ballpark by ear.

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post #15 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 07:14 PM
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I'm confused. You say you want a speaker for home theater but you keep wanting to make speakers that are more music listening oriented.

Being 2.5 or 3 way is not an advantage. It's a designs choice many people, myself included , prefer a well designed 2 way speaker

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post #16 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 07:48 PM
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fwiw, there are many high end p.a. builds that are three way. the danley designed yorkville u215 is one such application. seaton has his catalysts. jtr has the noesis. every big brand from jbl to tad has some flavor of 3 way mains for theater applications.

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post #17 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

fwiw, there are many high end p.a. builds that are three way. the danley designed yorkville u215 is one such application. seaton has his catalysts. jtr has the noesis. every big brand from jbl to tad has some flavor of 3 way mains for theater applications.

I know, I'm just saying that it seems like the OP feels being a three way makes it a better speaker. All I'm saying is, that's not true. It just makes it a different design. So don't dismiss a suggestion just because its a two way.

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post #18 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 08:44 PM
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"So don't dismiss a suggestion just because its a two way."

awe, come on. i have suggested more two-way designs to folks than just about anybody around here. :-)

i'm just saying that 3 ways can have their place too and if done REALLY well, a better outcome can be had.

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post #19 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 09:03 PM
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What if, instead of going 3 way you go 2 way with a bigger horn instead? Something like the SEOS-18 mated with the BA driver and a really good 15"
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post #20 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"So don't dismiss a suggestion just because its a two way."
awe, come on. i have suggested more two-way designs to folks than just about anybody around here. :-)
i'm just saying that 3 ways can have their place too and if done REALLY well, a better outcome can be had.

Sorry. I meant the OP not you.

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post #21 of 54 Old 11-28-2012, 09:36 PM
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"Sorry. I meant the OP not you."

no worries. i agree with you. lots of folks with 2-way high end designs that are VERY happy.

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post #22 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I'm confused. You say you want a speaker for home theater but you keep wanting to make speakers that are more music listening oriented.
Being 2.5 or 3 way is not an advantage. It's a designs choice many people, myself included , prefer a well designed 2 way speaker

why would they be more music oriented just by beeing 2 1/2 or 3 way? arent there music in movies too btw smile.gif its almost like your saying 2 way is for ht and 3 way is for music only, i myself preferd 3 way for movies, again ears all work different , i myself can hear upto about 20-21khz stll and im 36, so i might got sensitive ears, what s maby the reason i like the full-range more, i dono just guessing here.
better details , better voices and effect imo.
Imo "not owning a big 2 way" the thing i want to build is gonna triumph the 2 way by a oki margin, for voices in movies, effect and have the benefits of being able to play great music whit no sub, just how i like it.


"So don't dismiss a suggestion just because its a two way"

for now the 2 way are ruled out.


I could just build the 2 way, but nah, ill keep at this as its a dream project, im in no hurry, i got great sounding speaker, 2x 12" subs running, same speaker units across the fronts.
in the end i might have to ditch the CD driver and go for a Ribbon build, as there are many like that out there, so i dont have to fiddle whit a crossover that never will work for me.

and many of the builds ivd read/seen that was seeking a ultimate speaker 2 way whit high high end units in them, like Amt tweeters, and the top of the line 15"/12" are thinking of adding in more,
many is talking about adding in a smaller mid´s to get the details from the upper mid, and keeping the bigger unit for dynamiks.

i know there's alot of happy ppl whit just 2 way, and im sure there are some great sounding ones available, like the seos or pi4, but i want to a speaker for what i like combined into one.

i have had the idea of just making a seos 15" , but then again i want to make sure i get the units that can be used in the final project, and that i CAN make it happen after the initial build smile.gif so thats why im just not rushing out buying and building.



Pnw - wow really 9 amp outs and 3 from avr, darn. man exp.
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post #23 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 06:56 AM
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Most people on the forums will recommend a 2 way over a 3 way. I have been spending some time down at my local audio dealer, and the more I listen to different speakers, the more I realize that I enjoy 3 ways over 2 ways, (for home theater purposes). You can not build a 2 & 1/2 way if you go with the Seos horn, at least not any way that I am aware of.

What is this W18 that you are referring to? Is this an 18" inch Seas driver, or is it a smaller mid-range driver? I can't see using an 18" inch driver for mid-bass, but perhaps I am wrong. As far as the crossover, if you end up going with a unique design that does not already have a passive crossover designed for it, (like the Seos-12 build, or 4pi, ect...), then pretty much your only option will be to crossover actively, and trust me, that can get expensive unless you already have some amps.

I will echo what some of the others have said, you will definitely need some measurement equipment, such as the Dayton Omni Mic, or XTZ kit, or you could piece together something with the Behringer ECM-8000 with a mic pre-amp and external sound card for use with REW. The later will likely be the cheapest and will work great with an active crossover.

If you end up going with a 3 way design, which drivers and horns will you go with? I am getting ready to build some Seos-12's using the DNA-360 for the highs and the JBL 2226 for the lows. Sometime down the road I would like to build a really good pair of towers or bookshelf speakers for my 2 channel setup, (currently using Sierra-1's). When that time comes, I will likely go with the RAAL tweeter, unsure on the mid-range and low frequency drivers.

I am looking forward to seeing what you end up building!
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post #24 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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the w18-w22 is the sears excel series mid woofer, its a 6.5" or 7.5", i really like the mid sound it gives, some say its the best units ever , other say they not that good, like always, again i blame the fact ppl ears aren't the same,
we don't hear same Hz, some have bugged ears, skipping on hz and cant hear some sounds its just how reality is, maby ppl should talk more about this, its kinda like taste-buds, some cant eat spicy foods bc they got too big a area of those in their mouth, ect ect, some taste salt better then others, some smoke so they got dull taste buds, same for ears from have defects from birth or super extended areas, while some have harmed their ears whit high music or stuff, work related.


well that's how i see it, the funny part is the ppl usealy don't know if they got bad hearing or taste buds, bc they don't know different, cant hear different or taste more all of a sudden, so its all relative. right, thats just how "they/we all" experiences the world.
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post #25 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
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the w18-w22 is the sears excel series mid woofer, its a 6.5" or 7.5", i really like the mid sound it gives, some say its the best units ever , other say they not that good, like always, again i blame the fact ppl ears aren't the same,
we don't hear same Hz, some have bugged ears, skipping on hz and cant hear some sounds its just how reality is, maby ppl should talk more about this, its kinda like taste-buds, some cant eat spicy foods bc they got too big a area of those in their mouth, ect ect, some taste salt better then others, some smoke so they got dull taste buds, same for ears from have defects from birth or super extended areas, while some have harmed their ears whit high music or stuff, work related.
well that's how i see it, the funny part is the ppl usealy don't know if they got bad hearing or taste buds, bc they don't know different, cant hear different or taste more all of a sudden, so its all relative. right, thats just how "they/we all" experiences the world.

If you are dead set on using the Seas Excel W18 mid-range drivers, then you can not do a Seos-12 build. So are you looking to do something with a nice, high end, tweeter to go along with that Seas W18 mid-range driver? What would you be using the the low frequencys? I have spent tons of time researching designs using Compression Drivers and Horns for use as a home theater type speaker, but, I have little to no knowledge of the standard driver designs. What tweeters are you considering for use with this Seas W18's and what about woofers? Do you plan on crossing over actively? I know that everyone seems to rave about how the RAAL is the best of the best, so I would imagine that it would be a perfect fit.
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post #26 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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if you read the whole tread you can see nothing is set in stone,

the main issue being the crossover, and going active seems way to expensive. and no ill prob not be using the raal i don't want to build a 2k$ speaker, ill like to keep it under 800-900 pr speaker.
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post #27 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 09:19 AM
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i guess what i mean by music oriented is lower efficiency. You really want a high efficiency speaker for home theater to handle the dynamic's. also my Cornscalas are two way and i would most definitely consider them "full range" so im just trying to help clear up some misunderstanding in regards to 2 way versus 3 way design that there seems to be.

im just speaking from my experience with using not so high efficiency speakers for home theater vs. high efficiency. then the fact of the availability and ease of the SEOS kits along with your budget, and it seems like a no brainer to me.

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post #28 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 10:22 AM
 
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On the matter of two-way versus three way, consider the idea that a two-way speaker with flanking subs is a three-way speaker with the added advantage of being able to position the helper woofer independently from the midwoofer so that it can be used to mitigate the self-interference notches from nearest boundaries. That is a significant advantage, in my opinion.
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post #29 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 10:32 AM
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Yet another option would be to go ahead and build a standard SEOS 12-15" passive 2-way. You could use the passive crossover from a proven 2-way design and later move to a 3-way by adding a small dual-mid box on top. So long as the SEOS is close to the top of the 2-way box, CTC from SEOS to mids would still be good and CTC from mids to woofer won't be a problem with the relatively low crossover frequency. Lots of ways to skin the cat but that is about the least expensive way to get you going.


Brian,
SEAS rates the W18EX at 88db, though it is probably closer to 86. Two in parallel would yield 92-94db sensitivity which, with no BSC required, isn't too shabby.

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post #30 of 54 Old 11-29-2012, 11:14 AM
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Simple100, the fact that you prefer the sound of 3-ways over 2-ways at a hifi shop is not indicative of anything to be honest. IMO there would be some potential benefits to using two smaller mids, especially high end mids side by side in a 3-way design, but isn't similar to the benefits of using a small mid in a traditional dome 3-way with small drivers.

Wayne, I always assume a subwoofer system is used because IMO it is crazy not to do so unless budget is the limiting factor. I'd take a 2-way box with a separate sub system any day over a single box 3-way.

If someone is choosing between esoteric mids and having a good flanking or multi-sub setup, the choice is easy. Poor bass response is as plain as day and rather offensive relative to incremental improvements in the midrange.
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