Christmas gift for me dual sub $6-700 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 11-30-2012, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok after perusing and lurking about a bit I was looking at a builds using two Infinity Reference subs per box. This is Jinjuku's dual opposed design that I was considering.

Seems to be a popular build right now and seems to maximize my Christmas gift to myself. I paid off my Yamaha amp so onto this now. The LSi9's sing but need something on the bottom.

Any suggestion (are there 12" Polk or other drivers I should look at). Also I could do two Dayton HF (but two and not four). Not sure what I am gaining or losing (volume obviously) but the Daytons individually are better but are they 2.5 times better? 10" drivers don't seem to save me much budget wise.

Music mainly.

This is subs and amp. I have ply wood etc already.
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post #2 of 21 Old 11-30-2012, 09:00 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

Is there a reason you are limiting yourself to 12" drivers?

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post #3 of 21 Old 11-30-2012, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thx for the welcome. His build (and the others that I have read that have built it) seem to offer good SQ for the money and a 20" cube is small compared to some of the other subs I have seen.

Plus my budget is a limiting factor. They way it's been explained is low cabinet resonance due to the dual opposed nature. Lower distortion since there are more drivers. I saw one person compare the Infinity (single in a sealed box) to a $200 TC Sounds and said it sounded identical. Pretty convincing (albeit anecdotal).
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post #4 of 21 Old 11-30-2012, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I did have one person over at Polk Forums suggest just two 15's sealed in same size enclosure but Jin effectively polked holes through that one sufficiently enough for me not to consider it. Just want to see all my options. I do like to rock out from time to time and classical music.
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post #5 of 21 Old 11-30-2012, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post

Thx for the welcome. His build (and the others that I have read that have built it) seem to offer good SQ for the money and a 20" cube is small compared to some of the other subs I have seen.
Plus my budget is a limiting factor. They way it's been explained is low cabinet resonance due to the dual opposed nature. Lower distortion since there are more drivers. I saw one person compare the Infinity (single in a sealed box) to a $200 TC Sounds and said it sounded identical. Pretty convincing (albeit anecdotal).

That is all accurate. Dual opposed is a popular setup. I think there are a lot better drivers out there for the money than the Polk, IMO. The Dayton and SI are just a couple offerings.

A pair of SI's can be had for around 400 shipped. An EP4000 is around 300.00. Figure 50.00 or so for materials and you're in the target area with a great setup.

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I did have one person over at Polk Forums suggest just two 15's sealed in same size enclosure but Jin effectively polked holes through that one sufficiently enough for me not to consider it. Just want to see all my options. I do like to rock out from time to time and classical music.

What holes were "polked" in the 15" drivers? They do require more space so that might be a factor for you. If you are a classical guy, there are some songs that dig very deep, and the extra cone area and excursion of the 18's would really come in handy.

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post #6 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I meant poked. Fingers faster than the brain and they typed polk twice.

The concerns raised were more surface with the 12's vs one 15. Better power handling, better peak power.... well here is the reply


1. Cabinet vibration cancellation. By have two drivers arranged opposite and in phase they effectively cancel out any transfer function that a single driver would typically transfer to the cabinet. Think about it this way: in Science class the teacher would take a spoked bicycle wheel and spin it at a high rate and then attempt to control it's motion. You would see that person struggle against its momentum. That is transfer function. Now think about have two wheels spinning but in opposite directions (opposed) and then you could control those like they weren't spinning. No energy is transferred because they each cancel out.

2. You get more surface area with two 12" than the 15" Dayton. Roughly 20% more. The Dayton 15" is 829 CM2 the two Infinities combined are 1060 CM2. That's a pretty good improvement.

3. You get better power handling and thermal dissipation with two 12"

4. They model model for around 3 cubic feet enclosure so the 15" doesn't save you any space

5. The Dayton is 8 ohm. Who ever recommended that and the Crown amp either doesn't know what they are talking about or didn't bother to look at the spec. The Dayton would need the XTi 2002 at the least and that amp is $669. The 1002 would work but it's leaving a lot of performance on the table.

Now you could do the XTi 1002 (the DSP is nice) and the Infinity 1260W and wire each dual opposed box for 2Ohm which the Crown will do and handle. It will deliver 700 watts / channel which is line with the RMS on the Infinities. You should probably get more amp than even that (see item 6).

6. The Infinity is probably more conservative on their ratings and it can CERTAINLY handle, one on one vs the Dayton, a great deal more peak power (which leads me to point 7)

7. I would be willing to bet a tear down would reveal the Infinity is a better built driver.
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post #7 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post

Sorry I meant poked. Fingers faster than the brain and they typed polk twice.
The concerns raised were more surface with the 12's vs one 15. Better power handling, better peak power.... well here is the reply

1. Cabinet vibration cancellation. By have two drivers arranged opposite and in phase they effectively cancel out any transfer function that a single driver would typically transfer to the cabinet. Think about it this way: in Science class the teacher would take a spoked bicycle wheel and spin it at a high rate and then attempt to control it's motion. You would see that person struggle against its momentum. That is transfer function. Now think about have two wheels spinning but in opposite directions (opposed) and then you could control those like they weren't spinning. No energy is transferred because they each cancel out.

Yes
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2. You get more surface area with two 12" than the 15" Dayton. Roughly 20% more. The Dayton 15" is 829 CM2 the two Infinities combined are 1060 CM2. That's a pretty good improvement.

Yes, but seeing as you are going with an opposed arrangement I'd assume you'd be running duals of the 15's or 18's as well.
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3. You get better power handling and thermal dissipation with two 12"

Yes, but again this is assuming one vs two.
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4. They model model for around 3 cubic feet enclosure so the 15" doesn't save you any space

Larger woofers will definitely require more space. Hence my asking if you are space limited.
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5. The Dayton is 8 ohm.

The Dayton woofer is 4ohm.
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6. The Infinity is probably more conservative on their ratings and it can CERTAINLY handle, one on one vs the Dayton, a great deal more peak power (which leads me to point 7)

I'm not sure, but where are you coming up with this? The Dayton has been shown to be able to handle 1200 watts before pushing the envelope on xmax. That's quite a bit of power (2400 watts per pair). Were you planning on feeding more than this?
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7. I would be willing to bet a tear down would reveal the Infinity is a better built driver.

Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it. The Dayton has been over engineered for the price.

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post #8 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 11:04 AM
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keep on reading and download winisd. wont' be long before you know what you want or cant decide how much you want. tongue.gif
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post #9 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Just trying to keep it around $600 if possible. Beggars can't be choosers and from what I read people are happy with all the drivers so far mentioned in this thread and I don't want a huge box. The dual opposed looks like a way to get the most driver in a smallish box.

On the Dayton the website says 350/700 watts for power handling. I haven't seen the other (1200 watts) that was referred to.
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 01:55 PM
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What driver are you looking at? Even the 12" HO's are 700 RMS and 1400 peak.

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post #11 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 02:37 PM
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the dayton 15" dvc385 are on sale $99 till monday (apparently). four of them in two dual-opposed cabinets would be great. an ep4000 or ep2500 (same) is around $300, but you might be able to find one on ebay for half that.

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post #12 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 02:48 PM
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The 15" suggested elsewhere was Dayton Audio DVC385-88. My bad on stating it was 8 ohm. It's either 4 or 16 depending. It's $99 currently.

I'll stand by everything I have said about the Dual Opposed Infinity Reference vs the DVC385-88. The 126X series is far from a crap driver. I've had other Dayton Classic and Quatro drivers and the Infinity is hands down better in my experience.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #13 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the dayton 15" dvc385 are on sale $99 till monday (apparently). four of them in two dual-opposed cabinets would be great. an ep4000 or ep2500 (same) is around $300, but you might be able to find one on ebay for half that.

His budget is either: Two Dual Opposed 126Xw's or two single 15" DVC385 from what I have read.

I would still back the dual opposed if bets were being placed.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #14 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the dayton 15" dvc385 are on sale $99 till monday (apparently). four of them in two dual-opposed cabinets would be great. an ep4000 or ep2500 (same) is around $300, but you might be able to find one on ebay for half that.

The Crown XLS 1500 will be a quiet alternative without any hacking and fits his budget.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #15 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 05:54 PM
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well, the frequency response is almost always improved with multiple units. one per corner would be a great start regardless of which driver and amp monk chooses.

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post #16 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 06:54 PM
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My single, unbraced, unstuffed, test box build of a 1262w with 550w from a single channel of my crown xls1000 moved my hair watching full metal jacket tonight. I'm building a pair of cabs, one driver each cab. Already sounds great, and I expect a big improvement when I build the heavy mdf boxes this weekend. For the cost, I'm seriously impressed. they are tiny cabs too, just 1.25 cubes.
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post #17 of 21 Old 12-01-2012, 07:37 PM
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My single, unbraced, unstuffed, test box build of a 1262w with 550w from a single channel of my crown xls1000 moved my hair watching full metal jacket tonight. I'm building a pair of cabs, one driver each cab. Already sounds great, and I expect a big improvement when I build the heavy mdf boxes this weekend. For the cost, I'm seriously impressed. they are tiny cabs too, just 1.25 cubes.

How big of listening area?

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post #18 of 21 Old 12-02-2012, 04:51 AM
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That was in my basement, room is 10ft by 30ft, with 8 ft ceilings. It's fairly small. The room they will end up in is big, maybe 15x30 with 9 ft ceilings. I know I won't get the compression there, but again, for the cost I'm happy and my wife didn't want huge subs in the family room. I think it's a fair compromise.

with unlimited room, I'd build an f20.
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post #19 of 21 Old 12-02-2012, 08:22 PM
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The 1260w/1262w infinity's model well compared to other 12s even some 15" subs. I bought a pair for my Dad's place due to small footprint, and another single for a friend.

Can;t beat the sale prices right now example on sonicelectronix.com for $56ea. Find a suitable amp/amps. I located a epx2000 for my dad luckily for $200 gives 600x2. I saw musiciansfriend.com has the exp2000 for $249. PE is selling yung plate amps at reasonable prices. The boosted model should work fine for sealed subs and less expensive. sale ends 3 Dec.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #20 of 21 Old 12-03-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thx. I am going to do the dual opposed and the epx2000. For under $500 I do not see how I can go wrong. I wonder what you would have to purchase commercially to best this?
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post #21 of 21 Old 12-03-2012, 07:54 PM
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Glad to help. Exactly a bass heads thinking, you can't go wrong especially at that price level. Could always add another dual opposed cabinet for another 112 bucks in drivers biggrin.gif

My Dad's place was only going to have one 12" due to space. But i'll talk him into designing around two once he opens them on Christmas because you can never have too much low end.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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