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post #1 of 126 Old 12-03-2012, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Who here has no desire to use a center channel? My qsc K12 cast a huge phantom center... i had an x-cs encore before, i dont see the point in having a center channel now

Anyone in the same boat. I think too many people concern themselves with center channels with waveguide speakers without even hearing a 2 channel setup in the first place
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post #2 of 126 Old 12-03-2012, 11:29 PM
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Are you referring to music, movies, or just plain generalizing?

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post #3 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 05:24 AM
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Initially in my living room I didn't set up a center channel because of a lack of room for it. Now with my Mini Ewaves toed in greatly there just is no need for it as the phantom center is perfect for the entire room width if you are more than 6 feet away from the tv.
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post #4 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 05:56 AM
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I'm using Synergy (diy versions) and don't ever find myself wishing I was running a center channel. I even designed and built a waveguide center but haven't been inspired to go to the trouble of mounting it. Same for when I was running SEOS Ewaves.

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post #5 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 03:11 PM
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i had been using only L/R until recently. The center seems to help for the secondary seats, but it muddies things up a little at the MLP. I do not know why that is, perhaps some interference issues.
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post #6 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

i had been using only L/R until recently. The center seems to help for the secondary seats, but it muddies things up a little at the MLP. I do not know why that is, perhaps some interference issues.

Most likely, placement/tuning issues. Are you running a horizontal or vertical center? Horizontals tend to lend to comb filtering issues.

I am running 3 towers for my front stage and would never go back. 70% of your dialog in movies is directed through your center, and no amount of phantom'ing IMO is going to make up for that. Hi res audio is also a treat when running a center.

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post #7 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 07:25 PM
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omegaslast, not sure yet until I've built my matching center, but surprisingly I've been very pleased without a center. I've played ~80% music (multi-channel and stereo sacd) through L/R mains (bwaslo's xo design for TD12M/SEOS-12) and experimenting with movie sound tracks that are mostly comprised of dialogue. Toeing these SEOS speakers in properly is key...mid range is crystal clear and imaging is the best I've heard...voices just float in a "pocket" of sound across a huge listening width. It's really surreal.
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post #8 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 08:48 PM
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"I am running 3 towers for my front stage and would never go back. 70% of your dialog in movies is directed through your center, and no amount of phantom'ing IMO is going to make up for that."

if not using an acoustically transparent screen and projecting a large image, the center ends up on the floor or the ceiling and that is really annoying to some folks.

a phantom can be used to get the dialog onto the screen where it should be.

are you using controlled directivity speakers or omni's?

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post #9 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Most likely, placement/tuning issues. Are you running a horizontal or vertical center? Horizontals tend to lend to comb filtering issues.
I am running 3 towers for my front stage and would never go back. 70% of your dialog in movies is directed through your center, and no amount of phantom'ing IMO is going to make up for that. Hi res audio is also a treat when running a center.

I am running a set of 4Pi's with the center behind AT screen. The perceived difference is very subtle, I am not even sure it's not in my head. But then it maybe real and is due to the behind the screen placement or some other reasons. I was thinking it may have to do with the fact that the center is the only speaker that is directly on axis. My L/R are toed-in by 40 degrees or so.

This is not a problem, really. The system sounds terrific anyway. I mainly brought it up as a way to show how good phantom center set ups can be.

I may try turning the center on and off in my AVR just to see if I notice the difference now.
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post #10 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 10:55 PM
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the only time I really need my center (lcr's are 3 qsc kw122's) is when I'm seated far off center. I really could have gotten away with just a stereo front stage, but the experience would be lacking on the fringe seating.
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post #11 of 126 Old 12-04-2012, 11:22 PM
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Soft center all the time regardless of content. I have DefTech towers so the speakers don't draw attention to themselves. Rather a wall of sound/image. If you use a dedicated center, it needs to be the best and fullest sounding speaker of the system. Best if all the channels are identical of course.

Many consumer center channels were weak but salesmen pushed them anyway regardless of how they actually sounded.

Most of my surround experience is like "Quadraphonic" but I do have a hard rear center channel oddly enough. Basically a 5.1 system in reverse for matrix encoded material.

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post #12 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 03:52 AM
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I dare suggest you have not experienced a pair of speakers that are exceptional in capability. IMO no center channel will ever achieve the realism of a phantom center playing through a true audiophile-quality 2 speaker front. I've certainly given both approaches their fair share of my time, money and effort. Once your mains are good enough, screwing up the image with a center seems... illogical.
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Most likely, placement/tuning issues. Are you running a horizontal or vertical center? Horizontals tend to lend to comb filtering issues.
I am running 3 towers for my front stage and would never go back. 70% of your dialog in movies is directed through your center, and no amount of phantom'ing IMO is going to make up for that. Hi res audio is also a treat when running a center.

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post #13 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 04:26 AM
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"the only time I really need my center (lcr's are 3 qsc kw122's) is when I'm seated far off center. I really could have gotten away with just a stereo front stage, but the experience would be lacking on the fringe seating."

nice choice superedge.

there is probably some way to determine the optimal toe-in given horn directivity and seeting locations.

have you tried toeing them in significantly?

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post #14 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 06:43 AM
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I have toed them in and afterwords can hardly tell (when playing only stereo) that I don't have a center if sitting anywhere directly in front of the tv. couldn't be more pleased. Most of the time my center is just eye candy.
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post #15 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Who here has no desire to use a center channel? My qsc K12 cast a huge phantom center... i had an x-cs encore before, i dont see the point in having a center channel now
Anyone in the same boat. I think too many people concern themselves with center channels with waveguide speakers without even hearing a 2 channel setup in the first place
I also had an X-CS Encore as the center with my X-Omni's. I found I liked a phantom center much better and sold the X-CS. I now have GR-Research LS-6 speakers and am also using a phantom center with them.
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IMO no center channel will ever achieve the realism of a phantom center playing through a true audiophile-quality 2 speaker front.
I agree. The realism of the center when played through 2 speakers is also far better than any implementation I've heard of height speakers.
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post #16 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 08:33 AM
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I have done many installs where a center just doesnt fit, good thing the seating area was far enough back that the mains did a great job of filling in that channel image.....

One install was using vintage Tannoy dual 15" studio monitors that were MONSTERS.

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post #17 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 09:47 AM
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Is there a way to mix the CC audio track into the L and R speakers? Movies are engineered to use the 5 or 7 speakers, taking away the center on it's own would throw everything out of whack.
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post #18 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Is there a way to mix the CC audio track into the L and R speakers? Movies are engineered to use the 5 or 7 speakers, taking away the center on it's own would throw everything out of whack.

On my AVR, I physically disconnected my old center, toed in the mains past LP, ran room eq and speaker setup. The AVR detected no center and thus sends the center channel information to the left and right speakers.
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post #19 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I dare suggest you have not experienced a pair of speakers that are exceptional in capability. IMO no center channel will ever achieve the realism of a phantom center playing through a true audiophile-quality 2 speaker front. I've certainly given both approaches their fair share of my time, money and effort. Once your mains are good enough, screwing up the image with a center seems... illogical.

This thread and comments like that give me the creeps.

I don't believe in not using a center channel out of principle. Surround sound mixes have a hard coded center channel. It's required for 'proper' playback, imo. If using a center channel "screws up the image" of the sound mix is happening to you, you are doing something wrong. Sorry. The center channel is supposed to anchor any effects that are at the center of the screen. Just like any other channel is supposed to anchor a particular vector. It's also one of the most demanded upon channels of a multichannel mix. One can still have a wide soundstage with a center channel. If one cannot reproduce a mix properly with a center then I worry about your acoustics and/or speaker selection. I rarely see anyone with identical LCR's prefer not using their center.

I've heard great phantom center imaging before and that's great but I'm not going to neuter my movie experience for the effect. Maybe I just have a nice center channel. Idk.

What I'd like to know is those of you that prefer phantom centers have an acoustic transparent screen or have the capability to go about owning one. I find most that prefer phantom center do so to compromise because they can't physically fit a proper center channel. I get that but I don't agree with it.

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post #20 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I've heard great phantom center imaging before and that's great but I'm not going to neuter my movie experience for the effect. Maybe I just have a nice center channel. Idk.
+1

Like Desertdome, im running a pair of LS6 line arrays which have EXCELLENT imaging. But for me, i still prefer having a dedicated CC. I think one big key is make sure your front stage is properly matched.
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post #21 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

+1
Like Desertdome, im running a pair of LS6 line arrays which have EXCELLENT imaging. But for me, i still prefer having a dedicated CC. I think one big key is make sure your front stage is properly matched.

And that further extends my point. You and Beast and a couple others have FAN-FU**ING-TASTIC mains. Big Ol' line arrays. I don't know a single person who has a third for their center channel. So of course those in with that setup would prefer maybe not using or liking their center channel.

Unfortunately, even those with really awesome surround sound systems skimp (usually because they have to) on their center channel.


Ugh, I really need to finish my damn uber system to further make my point. tongue.gif

Carry on.

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post #22 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

+1
Like Desertdome, im running a pair of LS6 line arrays which have EXCELLENT imaging. But for me, i still prefer having a dedicated CC. I think one big key is make sure your front stage is properly matched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

And that further extends my point. You and Beast and a couple others have FAN-FU**ING-TASTIC mains. Big Ol' line arrays. I don't know a single person who has a third for their center channel. So of course those in with that setup would prefer maybe not using or liking their center channel.
Unfortunately, even those with really awesome surround sound systems skimp (usually because they have to) on their center channel.
Ugh, I really need to finish my damn uber system to further make my point. tongue.gif
Carry on.

The way these guys are sounding, I may be the first to go out and find a 3rd for a center, or buy a single kit to build one out. I just last night recalibrated my system to down mix the center channel since the JTR's are now gone. I have got my system dialed in like crazy right now and it sounds incredible. I do however still miss the center channel capability. It is there for a reason and when I had the full JTR setup, I realized very quickly the benefits of having a properly matched front stage, it just worked.

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post #23 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 11:16 AM
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Well hey, if you really like the phantom center channel.... by all means, carry on.

I just don't agree with the concept. I think it's just another compromise one has to make in the home environment of surround sound reproduction.

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post #24 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

The way these guys are sounding, I may be the first to go out and find a 3rd for a center, or buy a single kit to build one out. I just last night recalibrated my system to down mix the center channel since the JTR's are now gone. I have got my system dialed in like crazy right now and it sounds incredible. I do however still miss the center channel capability. It is there for a reason and when I had the full JTR setup, I realized very quickly the benefits of having a properly matched front stage, it just worked.
Whats up my brotha??!! Hey you know GR Research now offers a center channel for our LS's right? Its called the LS-C, check it out when you get a chance. smile.gif
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post #25 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 12:05 PM
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I've wanted the GR Alpha LS's forever. Ugh, I'll have to build some clones eventually. tongue.gif

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post #26 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Big Ol' line arrays. I don't know a single person who has a third for their center channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcallister View Post

Looking for anyone to let me demo there catalysts. I currently am running three LS9s for LCR but am looking to build a new house and can't afford a room big enough to do justice for these speakers. I do love them and want to demo some things before selling, I have a couple interested buyers in the LS but can't sell until I hear some catalysts,
Any help is greatly appreciated!!

You need to spend more time reading the forums. biggrin.gif Last week mcallister mentioned he has three LS9's. Here is a picture:


Quote:
What I'd like to know is those of you that prefer phantom centers have an acoustic transparent screen or have the capability to go about owning one.
I have a Seymour XD AT screen, but my speakers are in the living room. I have no room for an LS-6 center. I recently was one of the homes on the Omaha Home Theater Tour. I thought about putting a fake LS-6 in for the center (I have 4 more cabinets) behind my AT screen and seeing what people thought. People probably would have said "Best center ever!" tongue.gif
Quote:
Surround sound mixes have a hard coded center channel. It's required for 'proper' playback, imo.
What about that bass that is hard coded for certain channels? Do you use bass management? wink.gif I'm just playing the devil's advocate. When you have a theater and multiple seating locations, a center makes sense to anchor the image. When your seat or seats are in the sweet spot and the speech still seems correct, there might be advantages to a phantom center. I also think the implementation might have something to do with how it sounds. I use JRiver Media Center and a lot of care was made to preserve energy with the phantom center algorithm. A receiver may not down-mix the same way.
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post #27 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 12:48 PM
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^^^^^

Lol! It would be impossible for me to spend any more time than I already do here at AVS. wink.giftongue.gif

However, I am not familiar with the fellow but this is a first. Most do not get the line array center... but anyway. tongue.gif

And actually no, I don't believe we should use bass management if we don't have to. I'm working on a system that will have three full range LCR's. I can't really do anything about my surrounds but ... that's a compromise we have to make at home. Just like phantom center channels. But still, people don't usually NOT direct that hard coded subwoofer channel to something other than a subwoofer. wink.gif What you said with bass management is the other way around and another compromise we make because nobody can make full range speakers for some reason..... yes, please ignore the "but bass shouldn't be blah blah blah blah and is best mono and blah blah blah blah equalized". tongue.gifbiggrin.gifwink.gif

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post #28 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Whats up my brotha??!! Hey you know GR Research now offers a center channel for our LS's right? Its called the LS-C, check it out when you get a chance. smile.gif

Sure do! How ya liking yours? I can't justify doing that when I can just as easily do another ls6 should they win the award to stay in the theater and dedicated. The new Noesis from JTR is already calling my name tho...

Scott, what was that last part again? lol

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post #29 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 01:15 PM
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Sure do! How ya liking yours?

Comes in next week (hopefully). I'll shoot you a PM once i get it all dialed in. smile.gif
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post #30 of 126 Old 12-05-2012, 01:57 PM
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And actually no, I don't believe we should use bass management if we don't have to
But blah blah positioning blah Schroeder frequency blah blah distributed blah modal zone blah blah blah Geddes blah!!! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif



Hey this is kinda fun, I suggest all discussions of subwoofer theory be carried out this way in the future tongue.gif
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