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post #1 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, its time to get something started for the dedicated room. For those that may not have read, I was one of the folks who had issues with ED a few months back. Thankfully, I was able to get my refund and now I'm psyched the deal went south, because I think I am on to much better things. I finally have the family room situated: 5.2 setup with Denon4520, full Revel setup, outlaw amp and two of PSA's new XS30 subs(diy was not an option in there).

On to the real fun stuff. My dedicated room is going to be constructed here shortly. It will be fairly large, at 6500ft3 or so. I will be forking up the $$ to have, more than likely, Dennis Erskine's operation design the room for me and I will construct it to his specs. It will be three rows of seating total, with five seats in each row. I am seeking well above ref capabilities, with huge, knock you over slam in the chest, as well as the lowest extension reasonably possible. I have been back searching in the DIY forum and it seems the LMS Ultra is still king for now. I was set to buy two powered captivators or even orbit shifters, but can't help feeling that the same $$ and some effort could result in a higher performance sub system. I believe Jeff will be sending the Noesis out for a GTG here in CT late winer/early spring at my place. I can't imagine that I would end up with those for mains. Ok, enough rambling...I am prepared to spend the same $$ on a diy project as I would have to ship two caps to me.(approx $5300) I was intitially looking at 4 LMS ultras in two dual opposed enclosures with a couple thousand watts to wach driver. I have also seen some folks with the XXX drivers and they seem to have good results, but the inefficiency up high is a touch concerning as compared to the lms. I don't really have an issue with enclosure size..I will have a false front wall with three feet of depth and 20ft from end to end.

I have built enclosures before, I'm sure not to the level of quality as some, but pretty good none the less. I have no experience working the system manualy, eq'ing, etc though. Is this too much to take on for a first project in that realm?? I just can't help but feel like it is the only way for me to accomplish bone crunching, startling bass for my budget. Any thoughts are much appreciated!

Jake


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post #2 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 06:28 PM
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EQing can be tackled by anyone with the will to do it. You can get top notch results for about $200 going with a MiniDSP and their new usb mic. Here's a run down

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew

That leaves you $5k for the subs/amps. If you have a lot of room, and really want to get crazy I would look past quad ultras. Something like 4 Dayton RS18's for the cost of each ultra will be hard to beat, and for $4k you can have 16 of them, each in their own 21" cube stacked like legos behind your false wall. You can wire each set of 4 subs to a 4 ohm load, and pick up a pair of Behringer NU6000 amps to drive it all.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/400500.html
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post #3 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 06:40 PM
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Are open to infinite baffle using the false wall? Check out cultoftheinfinitelybaffled if you are wanting ideas or opinions on an IB setup. With an IB your amp requirements will be dramatically less.
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post #4 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replys guys! I have read a bunch about the Dayton projects, but am a big believer in quality over quantity.(not that the daytons aren't decent drivers).

I am absolutely open to IB. I have expressed interest in it before and have seen a couple of folks using those RE XXX with what seems like great success. I would end up with, after considering the build out for the Noesis LCR, somewhere around 13,500 liters behind the false wall. it works out to just over 7x vas for 4 XXX 18s. Seems like that might be pretty tough to beat too. What would that reduce amp requirements to??


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post #5 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Thanks for the replys guys! I have read a bunch about the Dayton projects, but am a big believer in quality over quantity.(not that the daytons aren't decent drivers).
I am absolutely open to IB. I have expressed interest in it before and have seen a couple of folks using those RE XXX with what seems like great success. I would end up with, after considering the build out for the Noesis LCR, somewhere around 13,500 liters behind the false wall. it works out to just over 7x vas for 4 XXX 18s. Seems like that might be pretty tough to beat too. What would that reduce amp requirements to??

The XXX is maybe the "ultimate IB sub" for an individual driver. But they are very heavy and very expensive. The best bang for the buck IB wise is the Fi IB3 18" and the good ole ep4000 amp. Register over at the cult and they will tell you everything you need to know about IB. There is a great FAQ that will get your feet wet and answer preliminary questions.
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post #6 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 07:24 PM
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The Dayton definitely isnt low quality

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=48


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post #7 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 07:25 PM
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Oh and to answer your question about the xxx and amp requirements. Probably more than 2kw per driver would be exess. Thats just my own humble, narrow-minded opinion:D
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post #8 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys..and Jay, as I said, I was not trying to imply that the Dayton is low quality. I am just the overkill type, the guys that will spend four times as much to be sure I won't question the decision later. That said, the Fi IB drivers have intrigued me for some time. I am registered over at the cult, and have read through many threads. I feel like I have a good idea of how to get the ib set up, just not sure on the power reduction vs other alignments. I watched the thread that JapanDave has going with 4x RE XXX and it seems that those monsters put out some obscene levels of bass...just my style:D

...And for you fight fans watching tonight, how about Benson getting it done vs Diaz!! Just waiting on Manny vs Marquez now.


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post #9 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 08:02 PM
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You sound like you've already done research and I'm sure whatever you choose will be extraordinary. Good luck!
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post #10 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Thanks guys..and Jay, as I said, I was not trying to imply that the Dayton is low quality. I am just the overkill type, the guys that will spend four times as much to be sure I won't question the decision later. That said, the Fi IB drivers have intrigued me for some time. I am registered over at the cult, and have read through many threads. I feel like I have a good idea of how to get the ib set up, just not sure on the power reduction vs other alignments. I watched the thread that JapanDave has going with 4x RE XXX and it seems that those monsters put out some obscene levels of bass...just my style:D
...And for you fight fans watching tonight, how about Benson getting it done vs Diaz!! Just waiting on Manny vs Marquez now.

What's more overkill then sixteen 18" drivers with 10K watts tongue.gif I'm sure you'll be satisfied whichever way you go. Good luck!


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post #11 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 09:10 PM
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Try to keep in mind when weighing quality vs quantity, that quality often goes down as excursion goes up. That's not to say the high excursion driver is lower quality, but that distortion for ANY driver increases as you ask it to move farther and farther. The lms and xxx are kings of putting out the most output of good quality from a single cone, but that doesn't negate the possibility of more cones putting out the same level with lower distortion at the same or even less price.

The cost is space. More drivers generally require more space. Especially if your entertaining large ib'ish setup to reduce amp and eq requirements. Got space? Sounds like you do.

In other words, don't assume that since 16 IB3 18's are as cheap as 4 lms 5400's hat they are the quantity option, not quality. In this case, it isn't an either/or proposition. The IB3 would require 1/4 the excursion in that comparison for the same level. That's a good thing. And the extra displacement means a lower frequency response at reference levels and beyond.

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post #12 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Try to keep in mind when weighing quality vs quantity, that quality often goes down as excursion goes up. That's not to say the high excursion driver is lower quality, but that distortion for ANY driver increases as you ask it to move farther and farther. The lms and xxx are kings of putting out the most output of good quality from a single cone, but that doesn't negate the possibility of more cones putting out the same level with lower distortion at the same or even less price.
The cost is space. More drivers generally require more space. Especially if your entertaining large ib'ish setup to reduce amp and eq requirements. Got space? Sounds like you do.
In other words, don't assume that since 16 IB3 18's are as cheap as 4 lms 5400's hat they are the quantity option, not quality. In this case, it isn't an either/or proposition. The IB3 would require 1/4 the excursion in that comparison for the same level. That's a good thing. And the extra displacement means a lower frequency response at reference levels and beyond.

I agree 100%, I just haven't had the experience with any of the above to properly compare them. I would love to spend half the money on 8 Fi IB18s vs 4 LMS or XXX, I just want to be sure that the result is at least as good. I need to learn next how to model the drivers so that I cna compare the potential output. Obviously, as you point out, more drivers moving less has the potential to create "cleaner" sound...less distortion. I have more than enough room for 8 FI IB18s and it would certainly save me money vs the LMS or XXX and the power requirements they have. I could potentially have 4 2 driver mainfolds or two four driver manifolds, or a line array of 8 or line array of 4x2. It would seem that the manifold options would be best based on the fact that I won't have to fight wall flex like I would with line of them.


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post #13 of 141 Old 12-08-2012, 10:41 PM
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Another EQ option that is really simple to use (connect mic, press button) are the Anti-mode boxes from DSPeaker:
http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/epages/Planeetta.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/vlsi/Categories/DSPeaker/Antimode

-Max
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post #14 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I just spent the last hour reading Gorilla's DIY thread and it has me thinking quite a bit. If I purchased 8 18" Daytons, the cost is like $1875. I figure about $300 in materials, adn $1500 in budget for amps. That would put me at $3675. From the data-bass info and Gorilla's experience, it should surpass what dual powere caps can do at any frequency for $2k less delivered to my door. I would place four enclosures, dual opposed, at the best point in the room for response once that can be determined. Am I missing anything here, other than the fact that I should budget for the addition of 8 more later:D


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post #15 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 08:52 AM
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You are also getting more sources in your room and more even response with 8 18" Dayton's.
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post #16 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

You are also getting more sources in your room and more even response with 8 18" Dayton's.

Absolutely... the thought of the sixteen ultimately attracts me for this reason, along with, of course, the extra output of 16 18" drivers:eek:. If I have great room response, and can co-locate more subs, even better! I think I would start with 8 if I go this direction and see where I am end when the dust settles.


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post #17 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Absolutely... the thought of the sixteen ultimately attracts me for this reason, along with, of course, the extra output of 16 18" drivers:eek:. If I have great room response, and can co-locate more subs, even better! I think I would start with 8 if I go this direction and see where I am end when the dust settles.

I understand. I am starting with 5 15" ported subs and see where it goes too...
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post #18 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 09:49 AM
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Here is what 8 of the Dayton drivers look like in 4 dual opposed 6 cu ft boxes:




And here is 16 look like in 8 dual opposed 6 cu ft boxes:



Keep in mind this is without room gain or any EQ.
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post #19 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I just spent the last hour reading Gorilla's DIY thread and it has me thinking quite a bit. If I purchased 8 18" Daytons, the cost is like $1875. I figure about $300 in materials, adn $1500 in budget for amps. That would put me at $3675. From the data-bass info and Gorilla's experience, it should surpass what dual powere caps can do at any frequency for $2k less delivered to my door. I would place four enclosures, dual opposed, at the best point in the room for response once that can be determined. Am I missing anything here, other than the fact that I should budget for the addition of 8 more later:D

Honestly you could even start with 4 drivers in 2 dual opposed boxes if you chose this route. My room is also around 6000 cubic feet open and I get full extension down to 7hz and 120+ db output with just 2 dual opposed boxes and 2500 watts to each. Two boxes will still give you tremendous output across the board and the cost is significantly less. When you feel the need to add more, it is easily scalable. If you were to go the LG Clone route to power the drivers, you could drive all eight for about 850 or so. If you want extra reliability you could buy an extra amp as backup too and still be in the 1700 dollar range.


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post #20 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I just spent the last hour reading Gorilla's DIY thread and it has me thinking quite a bit. If I purchased 8 18" Daytons, the cost is like $1875. I figure about $300 in materials, adn $1500 in budget for amps. That would put me at $3675. From the data-bass info and Gorilla's experience, it should surpass what dual powere caps can do at any frequency for $2k less delivered to my door. I would place four enclosures, dual opposed, at the best point in the room for response once that can be determined. Am I missing anything here, other than the fact that I should budget for the addition of 8 more later:D

I like your plan. smile.gif

I would like to point out that the upcoming Stereo Integrity HT 18" drivers outperform the Dayton driver by 1-2 dB throughout their bandwidth according to the tests done by Data-Bass (done by Ricci here on this forum).

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=90

Click 'Measurements', then scroll down to 'System Measurement Comparison:', drop the box down and select 'DIY Dayton RS18-HO Sealed' to see the 2 systems directly compared. Although the Dayton is only listed as 12.75 mm xmax, it actually measured closer to 20 mm of effective travel according to Josh.

Not only do they outperform the Daytons, they do so at a savings of anywhere from $40-$60 per driver (depending on your shipping location) at the current preorder price!

Caveats?: they aren't scheduled to hit the East Coast until Dec. 17 and are supposed to start shipping by the end of the month. Stereo Integrity has a reputation of making some very fine drivers in the car audio world and these look to continue that tradition in the HT market. They have a 6+ year history with the build house, so the prototype's quality should be a very repeatable thing.

This is to take nothing away from the Dayton at all; as a matter of fact, the Dayton and SI FR closely mirror each other. The Dayton is an excellent choice if you are ready to go 'Right Now' and has a great rep as well.

Don't forget the FI IB318's either -- they are a superb choice for IB and offer a very real 40% more Vd than the Daytons for only about $40 more/each shipped to NH. And they are made in the USA if that matters to you at all. There is something to be said about having 58 invisible liters of Vd (8 FI18's) crushing you in a completely stealthy manner. smile.gif

I have 4 BNIB 18" FI's (and 4 TC 15's) that were going into the HT room in quad IB manifolds, then decided to go ahead and run 8 of the same drivers instead and was in the process of trying to find 4 more FI's for the past few months (used, because I'm a cheap bastard biggrin.gif ) when the SI's came onto the scene -- had to have them. I was going to sell the FI's, but have been eyeing a particularily juicy IB location in my kitchen system that is just begging for them instead... biggrin.gif
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post #21 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Here is what 8 of the Dayton drivers look like in 4 dual opposed 6 cu ft boxes:

And here is 16 look like in 8 dual opposed 6 cu ft boxes:

Keep in mind this is without room gain or any EQ.

Wow, thanks for posting! I think they look pretty great right there. I wonder what the actual in room response will look like. Based on Gorilla's impressions, I bet really good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

I like your plan. smile.gif
I would like to point out that the upcoming Stereo Integrity HT 18" drivers outperform the Dayton driver by 1-2 dB throughout their bandwidth according to the tests done by Data-Bass (done by Ricci here on this forum).
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=90
Click 'Measurements', then scroll down to 'System Measurement Comparison:', drop the box down and select 'DIY Dayton RS18-HO Sealed' to see the 2 systems directly compared. Although the Dayton is only listed as 12.75 mm xmax, it actually measured closer to 20 mm of effective travel according to Josh.
Not only do they outperform the Daytons, they do so at a savings of anywhere from $40-$60 per driver (depending on your shipping location) at the current preorder price!
Caveats?: they aren't scheduled to hit the East Coast until Dec. 17 and are supposed to start shipping by the end of the month. Stereo Integrity has a reputation of making some very fine drivers in the car audio world and these look to continue that tradition in the HT market. They have a 6+ year history with the build house, so the prototype's quality should be a very repeatable thing.
This is to take nothing away from the Dayton at all; as a matter of fact, the Dayton and SI FR closely mirror each other. The Dayton is an excellent choice if you are ready to go 'Right Now' and has a great rep as well.
Don't forget the FI IB318's either -- they are a superb choice for IB and offer a very real 40% more Vd than the Daytons for only about $40 more/each shipped to NH. And they are made in the USA if that matters to you at all. There is something to be said about having 58 invisible liters of Vd (8 FI18's) crushing you in a completely stealthy manner. smile.gif
I have 4 BNIB 18" FI's (and 4 TC 15's) that were going into the HT room in quad IB manifolds, then decided to go ahead and run 8 of the same drivers instead and was in the process of trying to find 4 more FI's for the past few months (used, because I'm a cheap bastard biggrin.gif ) when the SI's came onto the scene -- had to have them. I was going to sell the FI's, but have been eyeing a particularily juicy IB location in my kitchen system that is just begging for them instead... biggrin.gif

I thought about a big IB as well, just like the idea of the sealed boxes and being able to move location is it helps with response. I don't "need" them right way, the room won't be ready for a bit. I could wait and see what the SI drivers turn out like in the hands of some users.


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post #22 of 141 Old 12-09-2012, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Honestly you could even start with 4 drivers in 2 dual opposed boxes if you chose this route. My room is also around 6000 cubic feet open and I get full extension down to 7hz and 120+ db output with just 2 dual opposed boxes and 2500 watts to each. Two boxes will still give you tremendous output across the board and the cost is significantly less. When you feel the need to add more, it is easily scalable. If you were to go the LG Clone route to power the drivers, you could drive all eight for about 850 or so. If you want extra reliability you could buy an extra amp as backup too and still be in the 1700 dollar range.

You know, I thought about that too. The only thing holding me back is that idea of availability. If I started with two cabs, each with two drivers and ended up wanting more, that would be fine...unless they go out of stock or something crazy like that. Not sure if that is a realistic concern, but I thought of it none the less. Today I actually though about just ordering two and copy cating your box for testing. I figured this way, I can try them out for a minimal investment and its not like one of wwhatever amp I get will be useless if I change the project up or even need to use it for something else in the future.


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post #23 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

You know, I thought about that too. The only thing holding me back is that idea of availability. If I started with two cabs, each with two drivers and ended up wanting more, that would be fine...unless they go out of stock or something crazy like that. Not sure if that is a realistic concern, but I thought of it none the less. Today I actually though about just ordering two and copy cating your box for testing. I figured this way, I can try them out for a minimal investment and its not like one of wwhatever amp I get will be useless if I change the project up or even need to use it for something else in the future.

I wouldn't worry too much about availability. PE is usually pretty good with Dayton products with keeping a s-ton in stock. I was originally going to order 2 to try out at first, but the price break at 4 units was too tempting. biggrin.gif The SI unit is also a great option for the money - it does have a few more DB output than the dayton, but has lower rated power handling due to a smaller voicecoil (2.5" vs. 3").


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post #24 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 06:44 AM
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I may have some LMS up for sale if I go with a second IB sub! biggrin.gif And Yes , the RE XXX''s are not shy at all.


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post #25 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Thanks for the replys guys! I have read a bunch about the Dayton projects, but am a big believer in quality over quantity.(not that the daytons aren't decent drivers)

The Daytons are quality. I would take a quality driver in QUANTITY over some Uber expensive and great quality TC Sounds. I would do a four corner loaded array of dual opposed subs with four channels of amplification. Step into some Crown XTi2 2002 X 2.

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post #26 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I just spent the last hour reading Gorilla's DIY thread and it has me thinking quite a bit. If I purchased 8 18" Daytons, the cost is like $1875. I figure about $300 in materials, adn $1500 in budget for amps. That would put me at $3675. From the data-bass info and Gorilla's experience, it should surpass what dual powere caps can do at any frequency for $2k less delivered to my door. I would place four enclosures, dual opposed, at the best point in the room for response once that can be determined. Am I missing anything here, other than the fact that I should budget for the addition of 8 more later:D

You are getting warmer... biggrin.gif

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post #27 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

You are getting warmer... biggrin.gif

I'm starting to see it:)

I may order a pair of the Daytons today to experiment with while I wait for the room construction to be finished, and by finishd, I mean started.biggrin.gif

For a $500 investment, I can get a very good idea if I will be happy with them in multiples I think. It would be great if I started with four enclosures, all DO drivers and it worked well, eventually adding four more DO subs. 8 18"s in each corner sounds great!!


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post #28 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I wouldn't worry too much about availability. PE is usually pretty good with Dayton products with keeping a s-ton in stock. I was originally going to order 2 to try out at first, but the price break at 4 units was too tempting. biggrin.gif The SI unit is also a great option for the money - it does have a few more DB output than the dayton, but has lower rated power handling due to a smaller voicecoil (2.5" vs. 3").

Yeah, I figured that much based on history. I actually did a DIY 3 way component build in my Cadillac doors a couple of years back using the HO, I think RS180 model.

I think I would opt for the Daytons just because they are well know, readily available and have been tested. If I knew the SI had been out for years like their prior car models and testing, maybe I would wait. I thought about ordering them all now, but I have no place to put anything as it is until the new house in done next month. As it is, I will have two PSA XS30s and the DO Dayton 18 enclosure all together in my current living room. Although the idea of 8 18s and the XS30s all together sound slike fun...just need to hire a divorce attny.biggrin.gif


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post #29 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have gone ahead and gotten 8 of the Daytons to start with. While I wait to have the theater completed, I would like to also use a cab or two in my current living room. I was going to pickup an amp or two for that, but can't decide which. I love that Gorilla's exact design and power combo is tested and yields great results, but the Crown is just going to be too loud for the living room(the fan of course). It seems like the ep4000 or epx4000 have been tested to put out between 870 and 950 watts at 4ohm, 2 channels. I figure that effectively works out to about 1.5db loss compared to the XLS5000. Is that really worth the trouble of re-locating amps temporarily in another room?? Ultimately, the theater room will have an AV closet and I can use whatever amps work best without regard for fan noise, etc. I just figured if I really like it, I can make one cabinet work with one ep or epx in the living room for less than $1k.

..Oh yeah, Gorilla, please take my imitation of your design as a compliment. I was very impressed by it so I figure why waiver on my first real HT project:)


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post #30 of 141 Old 12-10-2012, 09:12 PM
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^^^ Fan upgrades are pretty easy and inexpensive. I wouldn't let fan noise deter you from getting the amp that works the best for you.

FWIW the EP4000 has a pretty noisy fan. I have a fan upgrade on order for mine.

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