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post #1 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I finally got around to hooking up my Behringer EP4000 to the passive MFW-15 that I am using for my ht. problem is that the sub barely puts out any bass, and the yellow lights labeled "Sig" keep flashing even with the gain turned all the way down. Another problem seems to be that the sub is now humming really loud. I have tried adjusting the subwoofer output of my Denon AVR-3312 down to -5db and at +5db. Either way, I still get very little bass and the "Sig"lights keep coming on. I currently do not have an SPL meter, all I have is a Behringer ECM-8000 mic and an iPad.

My questions are:

1. Can anyone tell me what the mode switches 1-10 on the back are for and what they should be set to?
2. How should i set the subwoofer level on my Denon AVR-3312?
3. What should I have the gain set to?
4. Would it be best to bridge the amp to power my single passive MFW-15?
If so,
5. How do I bridge it?

I really hope that someone out there can help me with this. Thanks in advanced for your time and effort!
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post #2 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 10:10 AM
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the ep4k user manual has information about the dip switches, they controll the clip limiter, HPF and bridge modes
the hum sounds like a grould loop issue


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post #3 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 11:36 AM
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Marty,

Page 8 of the manual describes what you want to do. But looking at it a 50 or 30hz filter is not what you want in a sub amp and i dont see any other options.

http://www.behringer.com/assets/EP2000_P0A38_M_EN.pdf

Other than the ground loop, make sure that you have the speaker wired correctly for what you are trying to acomplish. All in the manual with pictures:D

I would start with the LFE at 0 gain and that will give you room for adjustment up or down.
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post #4 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 11:59 AM
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phxheat, you can turn the 30/50 hz filter compleatly off

switches 3 & 8


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post #5 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 12:03 PM
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do you have any equipment in between the Denon avr and the EP4K? like a Minidsp or something?

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post #6 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Hey guys, I finally got around to hooking up my Behringer EP4000 to the passive MFW-15 that I am using for my ht. problem is that the sub barely puts out any bass, and the yellow lights labeled "Sig" keep flashing even with the gain turned all the way down. Another problem seems to be that the sub is now humming really loud. I have tried adjusting the subwoofer output of my Denon AVR-3312 down to -5db and at +5db. Either way, I still get very little bass and the "Sig"lights keep coming on. I currently do not have an SPL meter, all I have is a Behringer ECM-8000 mic and an iPad.

My questions are:

1. Can anyone tell me what the mode switches 1-10 on the back are for and what they should be set to?
2. How should i set the subwoofer level on my Denon AVR-3312?
3. What should I have the gain set to?
4. Would it be best to bridge the amp to power my single passive MFW-15?
If so,
5. How do I bridge it?

I really hope that someone out there can help me with this. Thanks in advanced for your time and effort!

1. Already stated.(See Manual)
2. The Sig light means its getting signal. The red light means your clipping the amp.
3. You have waay more amp than you need for the MFW. You might actually do damage to the woofer, especially since you don't have a high pass.
4. If you bridge the amp you will likely destroy the stock MFW driver
5. In the manual, but I strongly discourage this.

Your issue with no bass is likely two fold. a signal issue and your dip switches are wrong. I'd diesable the highpass function and limiters on the EP4000 if it were me. If you have a multimeter you can check your sub cable output voltage. The EP4000 needs approx 2Volts to deliver full power. If your not seeing the red light on the berry you don't need more power, you need more signal to the amp.
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post #7 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 12:37 PM
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Can I take a wild guess and ask if you are using monoprice RCA to XLR cables?

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #8 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 12:49 PM
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I have a Denon 2312 and Ep4000. My gains are at 8 and the subwoofer trim on the receiver at +3 which is actually 3db hot. I get PLENTY of output but it could be because I have 4 drivers wired in 2ohm stereo.



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post #9 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Can I take a wild guess and ask if you are using monoprice RCA to XLR cables?

can i ask why this might be an issue? i was planning on ordering them to hook my AVR to my EP4K


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post #10 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 01:53 PM
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A while back monoprice was wiring the cables incorrectly I think.



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post #11 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

can i ask why this might be an issue? i was planning on ordering them to hook my AVR to my EP4K

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

A while back monoprice was wiring the cables incorrectly I think.

Yep. I had three that all were bad. They say they fixed the issue but it went on long enough before it was A) Caught, and B) Even though they admitted the problem, there were still some getting out that still weren't wired right, that I will be finding my cables elsewhere. Actually, these work even better:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-438

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #12 of 115 Old 12-12-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

do you have any equipment in between the Denon avr and the EP4K? like a Minidsp or something?

+1


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post #13 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so how do I go about properly setting the dip switches on the rear? They are so small and with my big hands it is very hard to flip them. How do I disable the 50hz and 30hz filters? I bought this off another member, and unfortunately do not have the manual. I could down load the manual but I figured that it would be much quicker to ask you guys rather than reading the manual for hours on end.

Point noted about not bridging the amp for the MFW. I am actually only using the MFW temporally and will soon be build a pair of Dayton HO18's along with a minidsp.

Last question, how do I got about tracking down the ground loop issue and how do I fix it?
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post #14 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Never mind, I just got through reading part of the manual, I now understand how to set the switches..

But, i am now having problems figuring out this ground loop, (hum), that is coming from the woofer. I have tried two different outlets to no solution. I am not sure if these outlets in my room are all on the same breaker, or if some of them are on other breakers, I currently live in an apartment temporally, so there is nothing I can do about the wiring. Any other advise on the ground loop? I have the amp plugged into a power strip that is also housing my receiver, tv, bluray player, hd cable box, and wireless router. Is this bad? There are only two outlets in my living room do I am not sure how I could go about putting the components on there own lines?
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post #15 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 05:25 AM
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flip dip switches 3 and 8 to OFF and you turn off the filters. use a small screwdriver its easier
if you are running it in bridged mono mode you will want to flip 6 and 7 to on

the manual is pretty easy to follow, also the back of the unit should tell you what all the switches do


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post #16 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Never mind, I just got through reading part of the manual, I now understand how to set the switches..

But, i am now having problems figuring out this ground loop, (hum), that is coming from the woofer. I have tried two different outlets to no solution. I am not sure if these outlets in my room are all on the same breaker, or if some of them are on other breakers, I currently live in an apartment temporally, so there is nothing I can do about the wiring. Any other advise on the ground loop? I have the amp plugged into a power strip that is also housing my receiver, tv, bluray player, hd cable box, and wireless router. Is this bad? There are only two outlets in my living room do I am not sure how I could go about putting the components on there own lines?

You want to plug the EP4000 directly into the wall. NO POWER CONDITIONERS. This is not for the humm issue though more an issue of how much current the amp draws. The power conditioner is likely a bottleneck for the amount of current the amp requires.

As far as hum, a couple suggestions:

  • Do you have Directv or cable? Unplug the coax from cable or dish and see if hum goes away. The coax feed from dish and cable is notorious for humm production. Not much you can do here for a solution but get a ground loop isolator.
  • Does the amp humm without any signal cabling attached?
  • Putting in dedicated lines is prob out of the question in a rental.
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post #17 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 07:55 AM
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The ground loop isolator Nick suggested is good for cable TV. If you have satellite you will need this one:

http://www.rackmount-devices.com/main.html?page=015-8700
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(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #18 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 08:47 AM
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I have tried adjusting the subwoofer output of my Denon AVR-3312 down to -5db and at +5db. Either way, I still get very little bass and the "Sig"lights keep coming on.

Use Samson S Convert or ART CleanBox Pro to bump up the input level to berry. I am using the later with Denon 3313. Your avr ouput level is way too low for berry ep4000 to perform.

Quote:
2. How should i set the subwoofer level on my Denon AVR-3312?

Browse my thread titled "Alpine SWR-1223D DIY Sub Build For HT". I have explained the correct way of setting pro sub level for DIY sub duty.

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post #19 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Use Samson S Convert or ART CleanBox Pro to bump up the input level to berry. I am using the later with Denon 3313. Your avr ouput level is way too low for berry ep4000 to perform.
Browse my thread titled "Alpine SWR-1223D DIY Sub Build For HT". I have explained the correct way of setting pro sub level for DIY sub duty.

Not so fast tho. the art rolls off at 20hz, the samson is hard to find, and we aren't for sure that he even needs it yet. His output sounds even lower than what he should be getting, I believe either the dip switches are not all right, or there is a wiring issue. Let's cross those off the list first before looking at bump boxes. I fought low signal for a long time until I realized the monoprice cables were my issue, it was more than frustrating.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #20 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:10 AM
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I am warning him about the final trap he will fall in after doing all that it takes to tinker with behringer amp. I am using superior avr than he is using and mine doesnt output signal strong enough to drive pro amp so I know what I am talking about, I normally do not dish pointless advices on such forums unless i am absolutely sure. So the low sub ouput in this case is attributed to mismatch between consumer and pro level gear.

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post #21 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:28 AM
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Not hard to measure the signal output from the avr. Do that before buying a bump box. Many avr's put out plenty of voltage and it doesn't seem to have to do with how high up the food chain they are

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post #22 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I am warning him about the final trap he will fall in after doing all that it takes to tinker with behringer amp. I am using superior avr than he is using and mine doesnt output signal strong enough to drive pro amp so I know what I am talking about, I normally do not dish pointless advices on such forums unless i am absolutely sure. So the low sub ouput in this case is attributed to mismatch between consumer and pro level gear.

I don't want to upset you, but perhaps you should go back and read through your thread you referenced and give some more time to what Ricci suggested to you about setting your gain structure. A long time ago, with a 2311, then a 3311, I was absolutely "sure" I needed a bump box too. I will admit now that I was wrong. It appears to me that in your thread the main problem your amp was clipping so hard is that you were sending it too much voltage from the samson. Where is your gain on the samson anyways? detented level?

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post #23 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:38 AM
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Not hard to measure the signal output from the avr.

I added bump box after checking the pre out level with multi meter. No mass market avrs put out enough signal from pro amps to operate to their potential. I have used Yamaha RX-V3900, Onkyo 809 and I am currently using Denon 3313. Tested them all. Their ouput is a shame for pro amps. Also, not very many people know if their pro gear is performing to their fullest when they match with cosumer level gear. It is only when they listen to somebody else's properly calibrated similar setup ; they realise something is wrong with the sub output in their own gear.

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post #24 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I added bump box after checking the pre out level with multi meter. No mass market avrs put out enough signal from pro amps to operate to their potential. I have used Yamaha RX-V3900, Onkyo 809 and I am currently using Denon 3313. Tested them all. Their ouput is a shame for pro amps. Also, not very many people know if their pro gear is performing to their fullest when they match with cosumer level gear. It is only when they listen to somebody else's properly calibrated similar setup ; they realise something is wrong with the sub output in their own gear.

Ok, this is 100% misinformation now. You said in your thread that you used the internal test tone to see the output voltage. Wrong approach, and there is no wonder you are getting low readings. There is certainly a difference between pro audio and consumer gear, but just about every single modern AVR has enough voltage to drive them to max. Go back and test each of those with a 60hz 0dBfs signal at the volume on the avr at 0 and sub trim at 0 and I think you will VERY surprised at your findings.

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post #25 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:46 AM
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No mass market avrs put out enough signal from pro amps to operate to their potential.

False.
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post #26 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:48 AM
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It appears to me that in your thread the main problem your amp was clipping so hard is that you were sending it too much voltage from the samson.

That was coz I was testing Alpine in a small sealed box through Crown XLS1000 in bridged mode (1100 watts at 1Khz@ 4ohms). The rolloff started too high and there was hardly any output in the ULF. Crown just didn't have gutts to support the low end, hence the clipping. I've put the same sub in 4.8 cu ft ported box tuned to 23hz and in-room response shows -3dB at 16hz. Listening is nothing less than fantastic. Crown now doesn't clip at even beyond reference volume even with 20dB transients during action scenes. I still say .... I know what I am doing. The stuff I don't know, I ask others for help.

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post #27 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:52 AM
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False.

Yes it is false coz I am not covering Pioneers, Arcams, NAD, Rotel and gazillion others. But as regards yamaha, onkyo, and denon.....their output for pro gear is nothing less than a big huge shame.

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Main System: Klipsch RF-82 II, Klipsch RC-62 II, RS-52 II, Onkyo 5010, Rythmik FV15HP, PSB S300
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post #28 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 09:59 AM
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Let me guess then, once you did the ported box, you dropped the gain on either your AVR, Samson, or your amp? Am I correct with this assumption?

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


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post #29 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

False.

Yes it is false coz I am not covering Pioneers, Arcams, NAD, Rotel and gazillion others. But as regards yamaha, onkyo, and denon.....their oupt for pro gear is nothing less than a big hhuge shame.

I easily clip my EP4000 with my onkyo with the sub level(s) set to -15db so cross that one off your list. You can't make an assumption about an entire manufacturer's lineup pre-out voltage based on limited experience.

The point is your making some generalizations with may have worked for you but are not good "rule of thumb" suggestions. The OP needs to read up and understand gain structure. IHO the hyperlinked info is a must read when diving into mixing pro gear with consumer stuff. You might enjoy that read too.wink.gif
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post #30 of 115 Old 12-13-2012, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Yes it is false coz I am not covering Pioneers, Arcams, NAD, Rotel and gazillion others. But as regards yamaha, onkyo, and denon.....their output for pro gear is nothing less than a big huge shame.

Still not true. EACH of those brands have been tested as having plenty of voltage out. Onkyo most importantly which some have reported to up to 8 volts out!

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


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