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View Poll Results: Is properly reproduced (read: relatively low distortion, unstrained/unclipped programme) "reference
1. Perfect. This is the way movies should sound. 33 11.87%
2. A bit too loud for me/my guests, I'm usually between -10 and 0 on the volume dial 89 32.01%
3. Too loud, I'm usually between -10 and -15 on the volume dial 94 33.81%
4. Much too loud, I'm usually - 15 or more on the volume dial 56 20.14%
5. Ae you crazy, it's not loud enough, I spend most of my time in "0+ land" 6 2.16%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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post #361 of 377 Old 05-25-2014, 07:38 AM
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post #362 of 377 Old 05-25-2014, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

No, most receivers use - 30dbfs tones so since you validated levels with spl meter you are good to go, leave them as set by ypao.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The Yamaha calibration is correct. The built in test tones of consumer receivers use a -30 dB FS test tone, so the SPL calibration level comes out to be 75 dB SPL (105 dB SPL Max Peak - 30 dB = 75 dB).

Commercial equipment uses a -20 dB FS test tone, so the SPL calibration level comes out to be 85 dB SPL (105 dB SPL Max Peak - 20 dB = 85 dB).

If you make or use an external calibration test disk, you need to know what levels were used in the recording process as well as the Dialnorm value used if the test disk is Dolby Digital.
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post #363 of 377 Old 05-25-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So basically when I run a -10dBFS sweep in REW with my processor set on MV -10 it should read 85 dBs for the sweep?

Yes.
Provided the level from the REW digital IO matches playback from the other sources, which is easy to verify by comparing a sine wave from REW to sine wave playback from a file, simply by measuring the output from the amplifier.
In many cases it will, such as in my measurement system here with a pro usb IO, where the analog output at 0dBFS is at a standardized level, and the AVR input also matches this standardized level for 0dBFS.

(Hope I didn't say anything wrong again, don't want to add even more confusion..)

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post #364 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 09:34 AM
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Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU?

How this reference works? How I find out? My receiver don't show -15 to 0. My receiver shows 0 at the lowest and +99 at the Max volume
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post #365 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardo2068 View Post
How this reference works? How I find out? My receiver don't show -15 to 0. My receiver shows 0 at the lowest and +99 at the Max volume

Go into your receivers setup options and change the way it displays volume level.
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post #366 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
Go into your receivers setup options and change the way it displays volume level.

I see mine doesn't have it. It's a basic integrated stereo amp
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post #367 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 03:36 PM
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I've fallen asleep during reference level playback on multiple occasions.
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post #368 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 03:46 PM
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In my experience, there is no such thing as a 'reference' when the results vary by up to 20dB from manufactor to manufactorer's auto EQ attempts within this hobby.
Such a range, (20dB) pretty much entails the whole range of subjective listening volumes defined in this poll.

Here's why:

The following chart plots an omnimic sine sweep played at -12dB on eight different receivers in my room, after each had performed it's auto room EQ calibration with identical speaker placement for all runs, and auto EQ mic placement performed on a set of standardized micstands, with the exact same starting positions for each processor (as much as possible - as defined in the test thread). The omnimic was recording the FR plots near the auto EQ starting position capture point (position 1). You can see the omnimic is a gray mic in the center of the picture.



Who would have expected this much variance between calibrated reference in these enthusiast products?
(AccuEQ, ARC, Audyssey, Dirac, MCACC, Trinnov, YPAO)




Test thread on autoroom EQ comparison - for those who haven't seen it.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1717346-archaea-s-auto-room-eq-avr-comparison-g2g-november-8-2014-kansas-city-7.html#post28900602


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if that isn't disheartening enough --- how about this variance I found between the exact same processor = an Onkyo PR-SC5508 and a couple different stock Audyssey multi-EQ XT32 mics with an identical part number on a test run a different day. So even on a single processor, depending on the luck of the draw with the Audyssey mic lottery - you could have up to a 5dB variance -- this confirmed with my small sample size of only 2 mics tested. The only difference in this test was that I used two different Audyssey multi-EQ XT32 microphones. One multiEQ XT32 mic from a Denon 4520CI, and the other multiEQ XT32 mic from the Onkyo PR-SC5508 --- both flagship receivers, both mics have the SAME part number. The test was performed back to back with no change in speaker, or mic positions....just swapped out the mic and ran the same Audyssey calibration again and measured with omnimic after both calibrations. One has to assume that while the biggest variation is at 7kHz and up in my single test, so basically double the treble ---- that the difference could very easily be any part of the frequncy response variance mic to mic. So one person's subwoofer might potentially be producing nearly double the bass volume (6dB is double the volume) in one room vs. another with the entirely feasible 5dB variance I noted in a couple of stock XT32 mics ---- and that on the SAME model processor with the supposed same room auto EQ system.




Here is the thread link to that test:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1764065-brief-comparison-between-two-audyssey-multi-eq-xt32-mics.html
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post #369 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardo2068 View Post
How this reference works? How I find out? My receiver don't show -15 to 0. My receiver shows 0 at the lowest and +99 at the Max volume
On my denon:
80 = 0 (reference)
70= -10
60 = -20

I like the 0-100 scale.
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post #370 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 05:01 PM
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Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU?

On my receiver on movies I could go as high as 70 with some movies depend the movies. Action movies a bit less. On music the highest is 62 and that quite loud. Usually I got that high when I'm by myself. 62 is too loud for visits. Amp is 120w and I only use two tower speakers. Based on your chart I guess -25 to -15 for me

I'm sure that doesn't tell much but just wondering

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post #371 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 06:06 PM
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There is a number of things that can effect relative "loudness" in relation to the volume on the AVR. If you have 100db sensitive speakers they will be louder than 90db speakers at the same volume setting if they are not adjusted to reference via level controls. If all of your levels on the AVR are set to 0 and you have sensitive speakers, it will be louder than the levels people on this forum are normally referring to. From my experience, around 88db speakers gets you a level setting close to 0 durring calibration. If your speakers are 98db then your reference without calibration would be nearer to 70.
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post #372 of 377 Old 01-12-2015, 06:08 PM
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My speakers are 89db
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post #373 of 377 Old 01-13-2015, 07:11 AM
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I listen at -15 for most stuff, and turn it up if the source is lower in volume. My speakers are 98db sensitive. If I had less sensitive speakers, I would probably listen at reference

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post #374 of 377 Old 01-13-2015, 08:55 AM
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[QUOTE=Archaea;30756585]

Who would have expected this much variance between calibrated reference in these enthusiast products?
(AccuEQ, ARC, Audyssey, Dirac, MCACC, Trinnov, YPAO)






[QUOTE]

Interesting data. I can't help but think if you take away the yellow (because it says Audyssey Off) and hold the Red (Dirac) off to the side for minute, the variance reduces dramatically. I wonder if for the average user using Onkyos, Yamahas, etc. there's more in common than your data first appears.

Blue is the Sherwood, and my old Sherwood was quite for some reason. Also my old Onkyo was loud. So my subjective recollection matches what you've found here quite well IMO. The Denon is also low, that seems odd. I don't have experience with Denon though.

As for the Onkyo mics, they're essentially 0db apart at 1khz, where it matters. The variance up high (10khz) is common for condenser microphones. This will mess up the Audyssey calibration for room correction, but the reference levelling should be fine.

I think your data is quite interesting, but not as alarming as 20db difference. That's a very dramatic volume difference.
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post #375 of 377 Old 01-13-2015, 09:12 AM
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Pioneer MCACC seemed to be the middle ground in the data. Now that may change in a different room. There has been so many debates on the calibrations systems available. As came be seen from the data all of the suffer at some point.
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post #376 of 377 Old 01-13-2015, 10:23 AM
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@tuxedocivic

Post 208 you might find intersting then.
Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City


For the previously quoted graphs I simply captured what each AVR was doing at -12dB on the dial after the calibration - we made no attempt to level match anything for that first set of captures.



But for our listening tests we had to do some sort of level matching after seeing how vastly different everything was with just the auto eq's attempt at SPL levels and FR -- or the listening tests just wouldn't have worked at all??!?!?!?

--- so we ended up playing only the left channel on the Disney wow bandwidth limited pink noise and setting the main listening volume levels of all AVR entries so that it played that pink noise at 72dB. Subsequently, the MLV postion (basically arbitratry as determined in this testing) was different for each unit - but we paid no attention to that - because all we were trying to do was get something to be somewhat level matched so we could more reasonably compare the EQ effects. After the level match of the left channels -- I didn't recapture the FR plots ---- mainly because it is unecessary - with omnimic software you can offset to the SPL you want in the graphs. I think REW can do this too.

SO if I take that data and extrapolate what we actually 'probably' heard after the level match attempt this chart is what you get.



(Note for the Onkyo where it is labeled Audyssey off - Audyssey was run to set SPL trims and distances, then simply disengaged)

There is no question in the data shown that there is still 10dB to 15dB difference in important, very audible frequencies (IE 15dB at 60hz - low kick drum, and 10dB at 200hz male voice, or husky female voice, etc) between these AVRs --- even when they were attempted to be manually level matched, after running pricey EQ solutions --- all using a well accepted/promoted disk based calibration method. The elephant in the room is that if "reference sound" in the same room, on the same speaker equipment, with identical placement, and identical microphone positions can't be easily obtained between multiple high end AVRs (flagships in several cases)--- we've got no possible ground to assume reference means ANYTHING at all room to room --- at least relative to the next guy on the forum.

This assuming you agree with me that a 10dB to 15dB of variance in important audible frequencies is absurd when we are supposedly talking about a 'like' reference experience.

Post 208 includes the FRD files in an attachment -- so you can upload them into omnimic or REW and play with the plots yourself if interested -- to make your own comparisons, or draw out examples.

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Last edited by Archaea; 01-13-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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post #377 of 377 Old 01-13-2015, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@tuxedocivic


This assuming you agree with me that a 10dB to 15dB of variance in important audible frequencies is absurd when we are supposedly talking about a 'like' reference experience.

.


I certainly do.

I think it's important to make a distinction between leveling the average SPL and what EQ some room eq system applies to that average SPL response. The EQ'ing performed may be a bad job. They are somewhat separate items, even though they both affect perceived loudness. Does that make sense?

Last edited by tuxedocivic; 01-13-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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