"The Grizzlies" Twin Dual Opposed Stereo Integrity HT18 Subwoofers - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you sir. and i appreciatte the input

unfortunately, i do not have room for one of these up front. they are currently to each side of my seating. i have thought of separating them and putting two up front and two behind the seats, but we are more than likely moving in the next couple of years so im not going to bother.

i would also like to have some more measurements but i have not had the time lately. hopefully i can get time to play around with different locations and measureements soon.

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post #182 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 10:00 AM
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"like a lot of you, my theater is in my basement. carpet over padding for the floor. It seems like these subs can get my entire house shaking but im not really feeling the tactility i think i should at the seats. im sure its because im on a slab."

did you ever come up with a solution to this one?

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post #183 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 10:05 AM
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also, fwiw, you might try boosting/eqing the region around 30-40hz. that is a pretty tactile region and your response looks a little hollow there.


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post #184 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

also, fwiw, you might try boosting/eqing the region around 30-40hz. that is a pretty tactile region and your response looks a little hollow there.


AH. good call. i will try that. i guess i never really looked at the curve that way.

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post #185 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 07:54 PM
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"like a lot of you, my theater is in my basement. carpet over padding for the floor. It seems like these subs can get my entire house shaking but im not really feeling the tactility i think i should at the seats. im sure its because im on a slab."
did you ever come up with a solution to this one?

LTD02,
I'm not sure who mentioned it prior or if it was even in this thread (might have been you 😊), but either way I can't take credit for the idea.. My theater seating is also on a carpeted slab. I purchased the ButtKicker isolators: "RI-4-PAK Medium Kinetic Isolator Kits" (Parts Express).
I mounted one each to the feet of my seating. Definitely made a difference in the "feel" of the bass. The seating still feels solid yet it actually vibrates and shudders with ULF/LFE. I totally like it. I've had several hard hitting tracks literally startle me given the feeling etc. IMHO, well worth the minimal cost.

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post #186 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD02,
I'm not sure who mentioned it prior or if it was even in this thread (might have been you 😊), but either way I can't take credit for the idea.. My theater seating is also on a carpeted slab. I purchased the ButtKicker isolators: "RI-4-PAK Medium Kinetic Isolator Kits" (Parts Express).
I mounted one each to the feet of my seating. Definitely made a difference in the "feel" of the bass. The seating still feels solid yet it actually vibrates and shudders with ULF/LFE. I totally like it. I've had several hard hitting tracks literally startle me given the feeling etc. IMHO, well worth the minimal cost.

i mentioned doing this in post #170. i actually forgot about it. so, youve done it and like it eh? ill have to get some and try it out myself. thanks for reminding me

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post #187 of 268 Old 05-28-2013, 08:33 PM
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i mentioned doing this in post #170. i actually forgot about it. so, youve done it and like it eh? ill have to get some and try it out myself. thanks for reminding me

Thank you for the idea Brian - and I definitely like it. biggrin.gif When I first read your post I was actually placing an order on Parts Express and figured for the cost I would give it a try. I also attached self-stick "Softtouch" felt pads (#0257952 from Lowes) to the bottom so the rubber wouldn't effect the carpet. They work great.

Cheers

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post #188 of 268 Old 05-29-2013, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you put them on top if the existing feet or did you replace the existing feet with these?

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post #189 of 268 Old 05-29-2013, 07:43 AM
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Did you put them on top if the existing feet or did you replace the existing feet with these?

I placed them on the bottom of the existing feet. Depending on your seats/couch it may work to just replace your feet with the isolators. I just removed an existing slider pad on the bottom of the feet and attached the isolator.

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post #190 of 268 Old 05-29-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool. Thanks. Im going to give them a try

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post #191 of 268 Old 07-28-2013, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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This sub system is for sale in the classifieds for anyone interested.

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post #192 of 268 Old 07-29-2013, 11:04 AM
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This sub system is for sale in the classifieds for anyone interested.

Ummm, why?

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post #193 of 268 Old 07-29-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Ummm, why?

we bought a new house and could use the cash.

the basement in the new house is totally unfinished and HUGE. im not sure what im going to do with it. We also have a newborn coming so i wont be able to build the new theater till things settle down. and so, i would rather sell these and use the cash instead of move them and have them sit in the basement till who knows when.

I will more than likely section off a dedicated area and do horns or IB down there. Dont you worry, ill think of something wink.gif

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post #194 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 01:22 PM
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Hey guys,

I'll be traveling to MI from OH on Thursday the 10th to pick these subs up from Brian and am very excited!

I hope I can get a little help deciding on the amp(s) to power these with.

Brian used two EP4000's and a Mini-DSP for these subs and in talking with him via PM he says he was happy with that decision.

He already sold the amps and Mini-DSP to someone else so I'll only be getting the subs themselves from him.

Before I order an amp(s) I thought I'd ask the folks that have been following this thread and Brian's awesome build for some suggestions as you all know a TON more about this than I do at this point.

I've considered picking up two EP4000's of course, but have also looked at the EPX4000 Class D version and have most recently been considering getting just one INUKE 6000DSP and really need help deciding as I just don't know much about this subject and the pros/cons and may even be leaving other great options on the table simply because I don't know about them.

I like the idea of having just one amp with DSP built in but I don't want to give up any performance that I might get with an amp for each box.

This is my first foray into DIY subs and obviously I'm not really doing any of it myself, but I cannot afford two Submersive's and am hoping this might get me close to the performance of two Submersive's. What do you think?

The good news is I am a studying Acoustician, started the REW thread here which has become pretty popular, and know room acoustics very well.

I have designed/built a room (20 x 25' 7" x 8' 8" - basement/concrete floor - room within a room) that with my current subs gets me flat (+/- 2.5db 1/3rd and +/- 5db 1/24th) with NO EQ. I have surgically applied the right mix of absorption and diffusion and am very happy with the room itself.

I'm currently using two Epik Empire's and the two DefTech Supercube Reference subs that are built into my BP7000 mains.

I have no room gain that I'm aware of due to the room within a room design I have although for the mid and higher frequencies the room is sealed - but of course doesn't act sealed for the bass frequencies.

Due to this and the room being almost 4500cu ft I have been extremely disappointed with the bass in this room.

By boosting 30hz down to 22hz about 4 db I am perfectly flat. Below 22hz though, my response falls off a cliff!

I'm hoping these subs will change that.

The "plan" as of now is simply to add these subs to what I have, but I may end up not using the DefTech's at all since they are only good to 25hz and may not need them.

I have a DSP1124P / BFD I use right now for global sub EQ for boosting the bottom end and like the idea of the INUKE amps because I can use the DSP built into them for delay/phase and EQ just for these particular subs to get them set up properly, then continue to use the BFD for global EQ, but again, am open to suggestions and will consider getting an amp(s) without DSP and adding a Mini-DSP.


A little more information and a few more questions...

1. I listen at -10db from reference for almost all movies (I'm satisfied with the bass for music already) but I also boost the subs about 6db, so I suppose the proper way to look at it is I listen -4db from reference. My goal is to have -4db down to 15hz / flat - as little compression/distortion as possible.

Do you think I'll even be able to come close with this setup or do I need to save up more and have to add another two or more subs like these, or even a different type/design before I can meet my goals?

2. Since I've never had a response less than 22hz (My first room mode/boost) I cannot say I have "no" room gain, and hope I'll find that I do and just haven't found it yet because I haven't been able to extend the response low enough yet, but I do have a pretty large room with a concrete floor.

The front wall is a drywall/standard wall that is 8" in front of the poured concrete foundation. The other 3 walls are two layers of 1/2" drywall 24" on center studs and the ceiling is simply a drop ceiling which allows everything to vent to the rest of the huge basement.

Do you think I'll have any room gain to help out below my lowest mode of 22hz with this type of room or is the response likely to still fall rapidly below 22hz even with these subs?

3. Do you think I've picked the right type of subs and properly sized enclosures for my goals and my room? If not, I can always build larger boxes later and reuse these drivers or even build four boxes and do singles, although at this point I'm looking for output and extension as I'm already flat and don't have any peaks/nulls to deal with. So what "IS" the best configuration/size/amp type for this room in your opinion?

4. The amp(s) will be in a separate equipment room that will be located about 40ft from the subs so that means I will need 40ft of speaker wire for each sub (at the most) - will this be ok? Any recommendations? Is 12AWG good enough? The good news is I don't have to worry about the amp noise but this is the first time I've ever had anything other than a plate amp so I'm concerned about that length of speaker wire for such high power. Should I be, or can I just get some inexpensive 12awg wire from Amazon and not worry about it?

5. Last but not least, I have only one dedicated 15amp circuit I can use for both of these subs right now. Is that enough? Would I gain much performance (keeping in mind your amp recommendation and the power handling ability of these drivers) if I save up and have a 20amp dedicated circuit or two installed? (In the short term, no matter what though, both of these subs will have to go on one 15amp dedicated circuit.)


Thanks so much in advance for any suggestions you can throw my way.

If these end up doing the trick I plan to actually "build" my next boxes as I learn more about the proper size (luckily I have lots of room) to make the cabinets and which amps properly integrate with which drivers along with the proper cabinet size.

There is lots to learn and I definitely feel myself going deep down this new rabbit hole!

Thanks again,

--Jason

PS If you feel it would be more appropriate to start my own thread, I'll do so. I just figured this would be a good place to start since Brian documented his build so well and will obviously not be updating this thread on his own any more since I'm purchasing these subs. Just let me know.

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post #195 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 03:42 PM
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tough to say until you get it in there and take a measurement.

the ht18's have been measured outdoors, so the transfer function of your room can likely be backed out if you have decent measuring gear, which i assume that you do.

since you are not going crazy with the bass, they may turn out to be enough.

as for an amp, i forget what the impedance of the drivers is, that will help determine options, could you remind me (us)?


"So what "IS" the best configuration/size/amp type for this room in your opinion?"

what you purchased seems like a very good start...but, if sealed isn't sufficient...MARTY SUBS!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347


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post #196 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 03:44 PM
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"I will need 40ft of speaker wire for each sub (at the most) - will this be ok? Any recommendations? Is 12AWG good enough?"

that's fine.

"Last but not least, I have only one dedicated 15amp circuit I can use for both of these subs right now. Is that enough?"

a higher efficiency amp may help get more power to the subs before blowing and of course it depends on how much power you will be pulling. given the way that you describe it all, i'd say borderline on the ok side.

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post #197 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 04:13 PM
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tough to say until you get it in there and take a measurement.

the ht18's have been measured outdoors, so the transfer function of your room can likely be backed out if you have decent measuring gear, which i assume that you do.

since you are not going crazy with the bass, they may turn out to be enough.

as for an amp, i forget what the impedance of the drivers is, that will help determine options, could you remind me (us)?


"So what "IS" the best configuration/size/amp type for this room in your opinion?"

what you purchased seems like a very good start...but, if sealed isn't sufficient...MARTY SUBS!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347


Thanks for your help.

I am using a calibrated (Cross Spectrum Labs) UMM-6 mic and am proficient with REW.

I have other mics available but this seems to do the trick although it does have a bit of a high noise floor and I wouldn't design speakers with it but think it's fine for these purposes.

I don't know much about this end of things, but here's what I do know which I hope answers your question.

These are the Stereo Integrity 18" D4 versions which I understand to mean are dual voice coil at 4ohms and although I don't understand the wiring or how this works, I believe that the amp(s) will see 4 ohms per cabinet (both dual opposed drivers combined) so the way I understand it is if I use just one INUKE 6000DSP each channel would match up with the 4 ohm impedance of the way these drivers are configured/wired and I could run both cabinets/all four drivers from one amp.

I don't understand a whole lot of what I just wrote in the paragraph above and am not positive I have all that correct btw. tongue.gif

Does that answer your question though and based on that information, if it is correct, do you think the INUKE 6000DSP would be a good match, or should I stick with two EP4000's, or some other option I've not yet considered?

Remember, I haven't actually purchased an amp yet and am asking for recommendations.

BTW, thanks for that link! I'll look into the ported subs, but I love sealed subs and since I plan to integrate the Epik Empire's with these SI D4's and possibly even my Def Tech's, going ported is going to cause phase issues, group delay issues, etc, and I don't know if you agree, but I think if I end up having to go ported, I'll probably have to scrap everything else and "only" use ported.

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post #198 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 04:16 PM
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"I will need 40ft of speaker wire for each sub (at the most) - will this be ok? Any recommendations? Is 12AWG good enough?"

that's fine.

"Last but not least, I have only one dedicated 15amp circuit I can use for both of these subs right now. Is that enough?"

a higher efficiency amp may help get more power to the subs before blowing and of course it depends on how much power you will be pulling. given the way that you describe it all, i'd say borderline on the ok side.

So do you consider the INUKE 6000 to be a higher efficiency amp or would two EP4000's be more efficient or is there a third option I should consider?

Should the next project be going to a dedicated 20amp circuit or do I need two of them, one for each amp/sub - which means that using just one INUKE 6000DSP amp for both subs/all four drivers wouldn't work??

Thanks a bunch!! This is definitely very new territory for me and takes me back to how I used to feel when I first started studying acoustics biggrin.gif - I like it.

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post #199 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 04:22 PM
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tough to say until you get it in there and take a measurement.

the ht18's have been measured outdoors, so the transfer function of your room can likely be backed out if you have decent measuring gear, which i assume that you do.

Thinking more about this... Since this is a dual opposed design and in a different sized cabinet than Ricci tested one of these in, plus this is the D4 version and he tested the D2 version, do you think I will indeed be able to figure out my room gain profile by comparing my in room measurements to his Outdoor GP measurements? Is there any way to convert or figure out how the differences between the driver and cabinet he used outdoors will compare to this dual opposed design with the D4 drivers in my room, and with a different amp?

I've never done this before, but to me it would seem in order to extract my true room gain profile I'd have to use the exact same amp, driver, and box size/configuration that Ricci used in my room. I am probably way overthinking this but would appreciate your opinion as to whether I will be able to get useful data.

Thanks again for all your help. BTW, I've already learned a lot from your other posts in other threads and have to admit I was hoping you'd be one of the folks to reply! wink.gif

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post #200 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 05:10 PM
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"Thinking more about this... Since this is a dual opposed design and in a different sized cabinet than Ricci tested one of these in, plus this is the D4 version and he tested the D2 version, do you think I will indeed be able to figure out my room gain profile by comparing my in room measurements to his Outdoor GP measurements?"

sure can.

d2 vs d4 has no effect.

dual opposed has only a minor effect.

cab size could matter, but the dual opposed is in the same ballpark as 2 of ricci's test enclosures, so it should be pretty close.

an adjustment for sensitivity is all that would matter and that isn't what you be measuring anyways.

here is a simple winisd model of the driver in a 3.8 cubic foot cabinet (something like that is what josh was using) vs actual measured result.

no inductance effects in the model and that causes a little hump and rolloff.

they line up within a couple of db everywhere, so the transfer function of the subs is fairly predictable.

just need a couple good room sweeps to know what your room is contributing.



"I've never done this before, but to me it would seem in order to extract my true room gain profile I'd have to use the exact same amp, driver, and box size/configuration that Ricci used in my room. I am probably way overthinking this but would appreciate your opinion as to whether I will be able to get useful data."

nah. no where near that precise. the amp only matters if it has a built in filter, which you'd want to disable for the sake of this kind of test. sealed boxes are pretty much the same within +/- 20% of box size or so more or less. on the low end, the bass wavelengths are huge relative to the driver spacing for the dual opposed, so they will pretty much be acting as a single unit...down low.

Thanks again for all your help. BTW, I've already learned a lot from your other posts in other threads and have to admit I was hoping you'd be one of the folks to reply!

no problem. should be some fun experimenting. i look forward to seeing what you get going there!

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post #201 of 268 Old 10-06-2013, 05:22 PM
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"So do you consider the INUKE 6000 to be a higher efficiency amp or would two EP4000's be more efficient or is there a third option I should consider?"

i think an inuke6000dsp is all you would need.

it will give you about 2200 real watts per channel, which is 1100 per driver (d4's in series per driver, 2 in parallel per channel for a net of 4 ohms per channel) and that is a good match for the si's.

i'd get started with something like that. simple. effective.

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post #202 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:01 PM
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Ok,

Got the subs (Thanks again, Brian!!) and had to take the door off the hinges to get them down the stairs and it took three of us, but we finally got 'em.

After three people helping, 14 hours of driving in one day, and lots of prepping, moving the old subs to a new location, running new wires, etc, etc I finally get ready to hook them up just to have a quick listen before bed and realize I don't have what I need. mad.gif

I bought the INUKE 6000DSP and some 12awg wire. I bought spade lugs and terminated the spades on each end.

When I took the amp out of the box and went to hook it up, I immediately realized I was in trouble because there are no binding posts!!

There is a channel a out and a channel b out, each of which appears to use some type of Speakon/Neutrik connector.

I've been researching for the last hour or so and quite frankly have absolutely no clue what to buy.

I see 2-pole and 4-pole and all kinds of different options on Amazon.

I need an option from Amazon that qualifies for Prime so I can get them overnighted and "hopefully" finally get to hear these on Saturday because I live in a small town and only have a Rat Shack and they don't carry this type of stuff.

I can take my spade lugs off one end and be left with bare wire.

How do I get that bare wire on to a Speakon/Neutrik connector? What do I buy that will plug in to the INUKE 6000DSP? Do I need 2-pole or 4-pole?

I really need some guidance here and am so tired at this point it would mean so much to me if someone could point me to a specific product that will work for my needs available from Amazon Prime.

I will be hooking one sub up to channel a, and one to channel b. Remember they are the D4/4ohm drivers and dual opposed, so each cabinet has two drivers wired for 4 ohm. Right now all I have is a bare wire, red and black, and need to somehow convert that to a connector that will fit in the back of the INUKE.

I appreciate any help you can offer as this is so frustrating to have come this far and be this close and not be able to hook these things up. eek.gif

Thanks so much,

--Jason

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post #203 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:07 PM
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watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjpP0kYBAU

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #204 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:12 PM
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Neutrik 4 Pole Speakon Connector is what you want

you will use the 1+ and 1- connections for sub 1 and 2+ and 2- for sub 2.

+ is red. - is black. :-)~

guitar center should have them. i'm not sure I could wait for delivery if I were in your shoes!

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post #205 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:22 PM
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NL4FX and get the Neutrik brand.

here is how they work:

Assembly+Instruction+-+speakON+SPX+Series.pdf 1556k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Assembly+Instruction+-+speakON+SPX+Series.pdf (1.52 MB, 11 views)

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post #206 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:25 PM
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you can keep everything on the subwoofer side of the cable as it is assuming that you wired that end up properly.

just chop the spades off, insert the bare wire into the speakon and you are done.

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post #207 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:36 PM
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You're awesome!

Unfortunately, I live in a small town and the nearest Guitar Center or any other shop that would have these is 2+ hours away so I gotta now pay for overnight Saturday delivery which is $8.99 per item from Amazon "if" it is through Prime, so... I'm trying to find something from them so I don't have to wait until Monday at least.

Which of these (if either??) do you think I should get??

http://www.amazon.com/Neutrik-Speakon-Connector-4-Pole-Inline/dp/B005EKMGO4/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

http://www.amazon.com/GLS-Audio-Speaker-compatible-Speak-On/dp/B00BHL8JYA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1AHASES3TZX4O&coliid=ITDWG45GXTVFY

The first one says nl4fc and the second one says compatible with nl4fc and nl4fx. What's the difference between the two? Does the INUKE only take the "x" and not the "c" or is the "c" just not what I need??? I'm so confused.

The second link is a 4-pack so it would only be $8.99 to get it on Sat. What do you think of them though?

Off to watch the video now.

Thanks again!

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post #208 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:51 PM
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the fc is the older model fx is the newer model. I think the fx may be rated for higher power. they are interchangeable.

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post #209 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 08:59 PM
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Ok, now I'm confused again...

So I need to get a 2-pole version? Not a 4-pole?

I appreciate your help SO MUCH but I'm seriously confused again on what to order.

I have the INUKE 6000DSP which is basically two 3000dsp's in one. I can't bridge anything as I believe they already are internally, and don't want to anyway.. Just mentioning this so you know what I have.

I don't know what any of this means or what type of connector to order.

Will either of the links I posted above work?

If the bottom/2nd one will work, it's a 4 pack which gives me two to screw up and since it's only one "item" it will only cost me $8.99 in shipping so I can have it Saturday. If I need to order a different kind I will, but they are more expensive and will cost $18.00 for shipping because I can't find a 2-pack, plus I don't have any I can mess up. wink.gif

I just don't know what to order though. I really hate to ask, but can you recommend a specific product from Amazon (PRIME) that will work/be compatible with the INUKE 6000DSP as I'm hooking it up? One wire with a red/black connection per channel. There are two channels. So I "thought" I'd only need 2-pole but again, I don't understand this stuff and from your last post, now I really don't understand. tongue.gif

Thanks so much. If it weren't for your help I wouldn't even have the amp yet! I obviously need to learn a lot more but right now am just trying to get these things hooked up.

--J

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post #210 of 268 Old 10-10-2013, 09:12 PM
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what I can't tell from the manual is if the nl4 connector will plug into channel b even though you will only be using pins 1+ and 1-.

it will work for channel a and it appears that channel b could be run off pins 2+ and 2- on the same 4 prong connector, so that may work too.

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Behringer Europower Ep4000 Professional Amplifier , Cerwin Vega Cv 5000 High Performance Power Amplifier , Stereo Integrity Siht18 , Stereo Integrity , Dayton Audio Rss460ho 4 18 Reference Ho Subwoofer 4 Ohm
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