"The Grizzlies" Twin Dual Opposed Stereo Integrity HT18 Subwoofers - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 06:07 PM
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bi amp mode *may* work by disengaging the crossover (clicking on the button to turn it OFF) and then adjusting the high and low pass settings to be essentially full range, but i think that is what we tested before and it did not work. but i don't remember why.

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post #242 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 06:14 PM
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i'm sorry, ignore the bridge mode comment. i'm actually helping a couple other folks with their inukes and they were trying to figure out what to do as well. the 6000 does not have a bridged option.

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post #243 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 06:26 PM
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Ok, found some spare parts/cables and a y-adapter.

I now have a y from my avr and am going in to the channel a input AND the channel b input. (I don't think it matters but channel A input is using an XLR connection and channel B is using a 1/4" as that's all I had.)

I know we beat that horse dead more than once on the "outputs" (speakon connections) but don't recall talking about the inputs (signal) at all.

At this point, now that I have both channel a INPUT and channel b INPUT hooked up - Now I need to know whether I should run it in Dual Mono, Stereo, Biamp1, or Biamp2 as I cannot figure out (and I've searched on my own) what each setting "actually" does.

This has to be the most poorly documented piece of equipment I've ever owned. I've owned a lot of equipment (like Denon) where you have to decipher the info but at least the info is there, but nothing like this!

Thanks for the offer to PM you and if I feel the need I will but don't mind waiting especially since you work so cheap. wink.gif

Also, I noticed I cannot EQ below 20hz and through a real quick and dirty test I notice I have pretty much the exact same response/roll-off I had with the DefTech's and Epik Empire's starting about 25hz.

I must have NO room gain at all unfortunately.

So another question is how safe is it to boost below 20hz, how much can I get by with, and how do I do it?

I saw some posts you made in other threads about a "cheat" but I think that was to set a high pass for ported subs.

I feel confident we can get this figured out, but definitely need to have some basic settings figured out and need to know some estimated safe limits for boosting.

I believe Brian mentioned when he had these subs he set a 14db Low Shelf at 20hz. I don't know exactly what that means but 14db ANYTHING to me sounds like an awful lot.

I have no room mode issues due to extensive treatment, but the only way I'm going to have any output below 22hz or so is with EQ boost.

Ideas?

As always, Thanks a million!! wink.gif

--J

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post #244 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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14 was too much. It killed my headroom. I ended up with 6 or 9. Can't remember. But I never had time too really tweak it as much as I wanted to.

I wish I could help with the amp but I'm not familiar with that one.

Xbox One Gamertag = The Barbeerian

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post #245 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 07:57 PM
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have you downloaded the software or are you trying to use it from the panel on the amp itself?

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post #246 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 08:36 PM
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Using the software. Much easier. wink.gif

Have it set to Stereo so changes affect both subs.

Have a 12db ls12 @ 20hz and a 4.5db peq @ 20hz/q=0 just to come close to matching the output of the higher frequencies and am still down 10db by 15hz.

Sure hope I've just set something wrong because right now these are outperformed by 2 Epik Empires lol!

Suggestions?

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post #247 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 09:00 PM
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but let's confirm...the nl4 connector works on channel b using pins 1+ and 1- yes?

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post #248 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 09:13 PM
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the sensitivity on the behringer will be different than on the epic because pro gear operates on a different voltage.

you'll need to make sure you are outputting enough voltage from the avr.

the quick and dumb way is to play a passage of music with repeating big bass hits.

set the gains on your amp to zero aka turn them all the way down.

set your volume on your avr to wherever you calibrated to reference. turn or any bass eq. set the subwoofer trim to +0db. disable any audyssey. if you didn't calibrate, just set it to zero. (might want to turn off your main speakers for this test) :-)

start the music.

turn up the gains until you see -20db, -10db, etc. light coming on.

if you turn the gains all the way up and are only barely flickering the -20db light...not enough voltage is coming out of your avr. -20db is 1%, so that light will flicker when you are using 1% of the potential of the amp. -10db is 10%. clip is 100%.

so...go back to the avr and turn the subwoofer trim level up some.

if that doesn't get the whole thing pounding, we can go to the next phase.
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post #249 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 10:22 PM
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I "think" I have the gains set right.

It didn't change the frequency response, however.

I'm not running any EQ and have all other speakers/subs off.

The response is flat from about 150hz down to 35hz then starts rolling off evenly but quickly down to the lower limit I measured which is 10hz.

With the gains set the way they are now (all the way up on the INUKE and +6db in the AVR) I am able to set a LS12 @ 20hz @ +6db and a PEQ @ 20hz @ +6db w/ Q=2.

This gets me flat to 20hz but from 20hz down to 10hz again it rolls off evenly but steeply and I lose 15db from 20hz down to 10hz.

I run the REW sweeps at -20db on the MV and the clip lights seldom hit above -24db for the sweeps.

No matter how much I turn up the overall gain though, the frequency response isn't changing - just everything gets louder.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but unless I can find a way to EQ and "Boost" under 20hz, this is pretty much as good as I can get, right?

I could go more than 6db on the LS12 and the PEQ but to me, that seems like an awful lot, and what I really need to do is boost 15hz if there is headroom in the amp and if it won't make the driver go past xmech or heat it up too much at my normal listening levels of -10db.

I was already happy with my Epik Empires from 25hz up and still need to use them anyway to have a perfectly flat response with no EQ necessary above where the response starts rolling off so I want to somehow set these new subs up to where they perform best under 25hz and I don't really care what I sacrifice above that, unless me being so new to this is obvious and you're thinking I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about and missing wink.gif

That wouldn't surprise me. smile.gif

Ideas?

I hate how these roll off so quickly - exactly as the Empires do. I just must have absolutely NO room gain. The roll off is so smooth it looks like an outdoor GP measurement. I just wish it wasn't so steep.

I did notice in the waterfall and Spectrogram I have a LOT more energy below 20hz than I did with just the Epik's and DefTech's so I feel like there may be more these new subs can offer, but I think the only way to get it (as far as I know at least) is to learn one of the tricks to somehow boost the EQ below 20hz.

Am I on the right track or totally off the rails?

Thanks again,

--J

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post #250 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 10:51 PM
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"So correct me if I'm wrong, but unless I can find a way to EQ and "Boost" under 20hz, this is pretty much as good as I can get, right?"

if you are getting enough drive to the amp, then you can use a high shelf filter with negative gain. set the frequency to 20hz and most of the filter will be under that point. it won't be on the screen, but it works and has been confirmed by another member. it will bring up the low end as much as your subs/amp can take. of course increase the output by the amount of the filter or it will just lower the overall level.

"I hate how these roll off so quickly - exactly as the Empires do. I just must have absolutely NO room gain. The roll off is so smooth it looks like an outdoor GP measurement. I just wish it wasn't so steep."

the no room gain sucks, but oh well. the rolloff is 12db / oct which can be remedied with 12db /oct shelf filtering. its actually how linkwitz transforms work, so no biggie. just uses lots of power and driver excursion because you have no room gain.

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post #251 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 10:52 PM
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"Am I on the right track or totally off the rails?"

doing great!

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post #252 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 10:53 PM
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"PEQ @ 20hz @ +6db w/ Q=2."

what is that doing there?

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post #253 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 11:01 PM
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"No matter how much I turn up the overall gain though, the frequency response isn't changing - just everything gets louder."

that's a good thing!

what do you want it to do?

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post #254 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"PEQ @ 20hz @ +6db w/ Q=2."

what is that doing there?

That was what I was using before I knew about your HS/Neg gain trick to boost below 35hz which is where it started rolling off.

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post #255 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"No matter how much I turn up the overall gain though, the frequency response isn't changing - just everything gets louder."

that's a good thing!

what do you want it to do?

Of course, exactly this, up to the point of compression which hopefully I won't have too much of. I was just letting you know that I feel like the gain structure is okay and figured it was time to move on to trying to boost below 20hz. wink.gif

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post #256 of 268 Old 10-12-2013, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"So correct me if I'm wrong, but unless I can find a way to EQ and "Boost" under 20hz, this is pretty much as good as I can get, right?"

if you are getting enough drive to the amp, then you can use a high shelf filter with negative gain. set the frequency to 20hz and most of the filter will be under that point. it won't be on the screen, but it works and has been confirmed by another member. it will bring up the low end as much as your subs/amp can take. of course increase the output by the amount of the filter or it will just lower the overall level.

"I hate how these roll off so quickly - exactly as the Empires do. I just must have absolutely NO room gain. The roll off is so smooth it looks like an outdoor GP measurement. I just wish it wasn't so steep."

the no room gain sucks, but oh well. the rolloff is 12db / oct which can be remedied with 12db /oct shelf filtering. its actually how linkwitz transforms work, so no biggie. just uses lots of power and driver excursion because you have no room gain.

This is odd, but with no filters of any kind it seems to roll off closer to 24db per octave and not 12db like I'd think. Hmmmm???

How do I know how much of a negative gain to set? I started with a -6db and that does boost a bit below 20db. It also DID lower the overall level quite a bit.

I already have the gains on the amp all the way up and the AVR is already at +6 or +9 (Have to look) to get the gains right, so exactly what do I do to counteract the hs/negative gain at 20hz?

Thanks again,

--J

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post #257 of 268 Old 10-13-2013, 01:00 AM
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Ok,

In order to get an average of a 6db boost below 30hz without affecting anything above 30hz, I had to make the following changes, which I'll state up front seems very excessive and I wonder if I am in deed doing this correctly.

hs12 @ 20hz / -12db

PEQ @ 20hz +6db / q=1

On the "Filter/Crossover" screen I had to turn the gain all the way up to +12db.

Under "Configuration" it's set up as "Stereo" (Other options again are Dual Mono, Biamp 1, and Biamp 2)

I had to make all those changes to boost below 20hz. It did it, and is looking better, but for all those changes, a lot of which max out the dials, I got a net gain of 6db below 30hz all the way down to 10hz. It still follows the same slope and is even, which is a good thing, it just doesn't roll off as quickly below 30hz now.

So now it's pretty flat to about 20hz and is about 12db down at 10hz. But that is WITH all the above changes.

This seems extremely excessive to me.

Using the REW test sweep from 10hz to 150hz and only these two particular subs plugged in, with the above settings and the master volume at -20db for the sweeps, it still doesn't hit the input or output clip lights at more than -24db or so but this isn't actual content of course.

Is there a better way than the settings I've used to get as much gain or more below 30hz, especially below 20hz, that wouldn't use so much headroom? I literally maxed out most of the settings to get this 6db boost below 20hz!

I tried not using the 20hz PEQ and tried different negative gains from -6db to -18db for the HS filter @20 and all kinds of combinations, measuring the results in between and these are the best results/compromise I have been able to figure out.

Remember, the SW Trim in my AVR is +10db (can put it to +12db max) and the physical gain knobs on the INUKE are all the way maxed out, and even the software gain is all the way maxed out.

I can probably back off the overall gain, especially when I start adding in more subs, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm using a lot of negative gain and a large PEQ boost at 20hz for a 6db net gain.

What do you think?

--J

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post #258 of 268 Old 10-13-2013, 01:10 AM
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does your rolloff with no eq look similar to this?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446012/the-grizzlies-twin-dual-opposed-stereo-integrity-ht18-subwoofers#post_22721810

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post #259 of 268 Old 10-13-2013, 01:24 AM
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if the rolloff is like the post that I linked to, then something about like this may work. 15db of negative shelf filter with the 3db point at 35hz or so.



then bring the whole show back up by +12db.



also, if your signal chain rolls off a little here and there at 10hz per unit, that will add up.

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post #260 of 268 Old 10-13-2013, 02:16 AM
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you should be getting about 10db more spl in the low notes all-in than you were before.

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post #261 of 268 Old 02-26-2014, 10:18 PM
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What happened with this? 

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post #262 of 268 Old 05-25-2014, 05:42 PM
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Any updates
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post #263 of 268 Old 05-26-2014, 09:16 AM
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Yes! I know it's been a long time with no updates, but I've been doing a ton of experimenting because I've never been able to get the placement and eq just right so I have literally moved them around to every possible spot I can think of, from the corners to everywhere on the front and back walls and I've tried more eq settings using a Minidsp 10x10 than I can count.

I actually have a lot of questions and need to seek some advice, so I'll start getting my latest pre-post eq REW graphs posted along with some of my most pressing questions and will try to post everything real soon.

I do believe I'm going to need either 2 more dual opposed or 4 more single cabs though because I am clipping due to the boost I have to add due to no noticeable room gain and just can't get anything much below 20hz no matter what I do.

Thanks for asking because it just gave me the motivation I needed to post and ask for some ideas.

--J

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post #264 of 268 Old 05-26-2014, 09:24 AM
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he sold them because he moved.

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post #265 of 268 Old 05-28-2014, 01:02 AM
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Huh? Didn't move. Still right here. wink.gif

I'm in the process of getting REW graphs and screenshots of Mini-DSP settings together to upload along with a list of questions I have to see if there is any way short of buying 4 more drivers/boxes to increase performance.

Thanks for your help and continued interest.

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post #266 of 268 Old 05-28-2014, 08:12 AM
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oh weird, we posted at the same moment. i was referring to brian.

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post #267 of 268 Old 08-28-2014, 02:36 AM
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Just ordered 4 SI 18s and Peavey IPR2 7500DSP...Being delivered tomorrow. Long term, planning to double that order of amps/subs when I finish my 17 x 22 DD + GG theater in the unfinished basement next year.

Does 2 DO gain you anything over 4 sealed enclosures? Is it less total cu ft - at a sacrifice of maybe placement flexibility such as stuffing behind a 2 ft screen wall? I've also read the study that says 4 singles at the mid-points of the walls is generally supposed to give you the evenest bass distribution (slightly better than 2), so single sealed enclosures would seem to give more flexibility. Thanks
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post #268 of 268 Old 08-28-2014, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigangryrhino View Post
Just ordered 4 SI 18s and Peavey IPR2 7500DSP...Being delivered tomorrow. Long term, planning to double that order of amps/subs when I finish my 17 x 22 DD + GG theater in the unfinished basement next year.

Does 2 DO gain you anything over 4 sealed enclosures? Is it less total cu ft - at a sacrifice of maybe placement flexibility such as stuffing behind a 2 ft screen wall? I've also read the study that says 4 singles at the mid-points of the walls is generally supposed to give you the evenest bass distribution (slightly better than 2), so single sealed enclosures would seem to give more flexibility. Thanks
Dual opposed does not offer any real performance benefits over the same amount of drivers and power in the Same sized sealed enclosures that are collocated/stacked. They are just in one box and move a little less from the drivers canceling each others rocking forces out. It can also be a tiny bit cheaper and easier. One enclosure instead of two and less wires and binding posts.

So yes, single sealed gives you more flexibility.

DO has its place but IMO separate is the best way to go if you can.
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