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post #361 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

I am pretty sure no one around will experience more 'mid bass punch' than when that wall gets put up....

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post #362 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

I am pretty sure no one around will experience more 'mid bass punch' than when that wall gets put up....

Gorilla,

The reason I am concerned about your Audyssey trace is the way Audyssey goes about its business. It can boost below tuning by 9-10dB with ease. Please measure Audyssey on vs off to see what Audyssey is really doing, to ensure that AVR doesn't try anything stupid....

What year receiver?

JSS

JSS,

See my build to see that the extension is real and is there, without Audyssey. I know it is a different woofer but Rilla and I both went for the same objectives and room gain is wonderful if you have the proper room to get it smile.gif



No audyssey or eq of any sort with that one smile.gif

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post #363 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 05:36 PM
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You two also have pretty similar sized rooms too, yes?

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post #364 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 05:59 PM
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I am 11x29 with a very small closed off hallway on the back and a stairwell. but my airspave leaks a good bit downstairs with the drop ceiling so call it on the big side at 30x29

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post #365 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

JSS,

See my build to see that the extension is real and is there, without Audyssey. I know it is a different woofer but Rilla and I both went for the same objectives and room gain is wonderful if you have the proper room to get it smile.gif



No audyssey or eq of any sort with that one smile.gif

Just wanted to be sure any drivers wouldn't be harmed by AVR clipping....

Audyssey can be quite unkind.

JSS
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post #366 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

I am pretty sure no one around will experience more 'mid bass punch' than when that wall gets put up....

Gorilla,

The reason I am concerned about your Audyssey trace is the way Audyssey goes about its business. It can boost below tuning by 9-10dB with ease. Please measure Audyssey on vs off to see what Audyssey is really doing, to ensure that AVR doesn't try anything stupid....

What year receiver?

JSS

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Is blue before and red after?

JSS

As I stated in the original post with the graph, audyssey wasn't adding any boost in that area. In fact, the only difference I saw toggling on/off was reducing a few larger peaks. The different lines red/blue were the average vs. current plots in omnimic. I normally keep them crossed at 60hz so not much of an issue anyway. cool.gif

The avr is a denon 4311.
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post #367 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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You two also have pretty similar sized rooms too, yes?

Yes, pretty similar as I'm in an L saped room too. Width varies from 13-19 feet and length is 44' to the rear wall. LP is at 18' in the main seat. smile.gif also drop ceiling that is not yet treated.
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post #368 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 08:45 PM
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I posted a similar question is beast's build thread but what's the advantage of running your speakers full range 40-50 when you have more than capable sub systems like you have that should handle those frequencies more efficiently?
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post #369 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

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Perhaps we should include you in the convo with P-lock, myself, and Chop. Sorry in advance. LOL.

Austin already dangled that carrot, unless the LS6's go for sale, I'm not hungry, but I would still love to be a part of the convo.

^^^^^ btw please share all these secrets the group of you have been discussing? smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif what's in the works?
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post #370 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

I posted a similar question is beast's build thread but what's the advantage of running your speakers full range 40-50 when you have more than capable sub systems like you have that should handle those frequencies more efficiently?
I know you didn't ask me, but one advantage can be that your mains then act as part of a "flanking subwoofers" strategy a la Parnham. Another source of distributed bass where it matters. Also some folks just prefer the sound of stereo bass as low as can be sensibly managed. Or maybe it's simply having "moar". biggrin.gif
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post #371 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

I posted a similar question is beast's build thread but what's the advantage of running your speakers full range 40-50 when you have more than capable sub systems like you have that should handle those frequencies more efficiently?

I guess I should answer this since I have been pushing full range mains for a while now.

There are a few things but first of all, running your mains down to 40-50hz is not full range. All the way down, baby! biggrin.gif

Anyway...

It has been of my opinion that the actual tonal sound quality running full range is better. I will not claim I have golden ears but to me I feel like I can hear the crossover or something. Voices, sound effects and music just sound better. I can't really explain it. This has been the case with every speaker I've owned, from the nice Adire kits I run now all the way back to the cheap-ass KLH's I had as a kid. There are counterpoints to the use of full range, all practical. One needs extremely capable speakers in order to even take advantage fully. Many typical speakers will run out of gas and compress and just sound awful at louder SPL levels. There is also the real danger of speaker damage too.

But's lets ignore that. We are building a whole nother caliber of speakers around here. wink.gif

I feel and the consensus has been this for a couple years now that we need to spread the bass around. This will result in smoother bass response at the LP and other seats. People do it with subs ALL the time but scoff at the idea of using their mains for it. "Not a good idea. Usually the location of the mains is not ideal or bass." rolleyes.gif Well, yeah. We aren't just using ONE speaker now are we? We have at least two or three up front AND a subwoofer. Maybe several.

The other thing is if we let our mains roll off naturally or just a whole lot lower than the typical 80hz cross that you could get a smoother blend between sub and speaker.

I could go on forever but that's the jist of it. Better sound, better bass response, better blending of mains with subs.

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post #372 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:03 PM
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Yeah what Scott said.
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post #373 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:15 PM
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Scott, are you saying only speakers that can be run full range (down below 20hz or whatever number you are thinking of) should be set as large, or anyone with multiple subs around the room do it? My speakers are crazy efficient so they only dip to the lower 50hz in my room (rated for 60hz). I know I could just try it, but I can't yet since I don't have all my subs built, I currently just have 1 Submersive after selling the other one.
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post #374 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:21 PM
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Well, yes...of course. It wouldn't make sense at all if it wasn't. 80hz is the defacto standard, it's just an overall practical starting point. Crossing over lower than that doesn't mean you're running full range.

Keyword there: FULL

wink.gif

All the way down, baby!

If you're using a traditional setup with your subs as 99% are then you may not benefit from even trying full range. Most people don't care. It all comes down to what works for you, your speakers and the end result. If your speakers can't handle a full range signal and most cannot then don't do it. Don't feel like you're missing out on something because you can't.

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post #375 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:30 PM
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Ok, gotcha I wasn't sure. You said you've done that with every speaker you've owned so I thought maybe you had a pair or 2 that didn't dig so deep but you still ran them as large.
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post #376 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 09:36 PM
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Ok, gotcha I wasn't sure. You said you've done that with every speaker you've owned so I thought maybe you had a pair or 2 that didn't dig so deep but you still ran them as large.

At normal levels you will notice (with no sub on) where the speaker drops off. Before my Adire speakers I had two different KLH's both of which were about identical in build but one had PR's and seemed to dig a little bit deeper than the vented version. My current L&R's are tuned ~28hz but I measured them being flat to the upper teens inroom.

Movies have gotten much more extended in depth than back in the day so I wouldn't expect them to produce 10hz bass. Also at full reference level they don't sound so great. So yes, even now I have a system that is crossed. Can't remember if it was at 60hz or 80hz. tongue.gif I like to watch loud and this was the compromise I had to make as many, many other people must do. Being able to run full tilt full range has been a large part of the design of the speakers I've been working on. I'm not using pure subwoofers to get the job done so we will see if my design choices work out in the real world in room. I'm thinking it will. smile.gif

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post #377 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I guess I should answer this since I have been pushing full range mains for a while now.

There are a few things but first of all, running your mains down to 40-50hz is not full range. All the way down, baby! biggrin.gif

Anyway...

It has been of my opinion that the actual tonal sound quality running full range is better. I will not claim I have golden ears but to me I feel like I can hear the crossover or something. Voices, sound effects and music just sound better. I can't really explain it. This has been the case with every speaker I've owned, from the nice Adire kits I run now all the way back to the cheap-ass KLH's I had as a kid. There are counterpoints to the use of full range, all practical. One needs extremely capable speakers in order to even take advantage fully. Many typical speakers will run out of gas and compress and just sound awful at louder SPL levels. There is also the real danger of speaker damage too.

But's lets ignore that. We are building a whole nother caliber of speakers around here. wink.gif

I feel and the consensus has been this for a couple years now that we need to spread the bass around. This will result in smoother bass response at the LP and other seats. People do it with subs ALL the time but scoff at the idea of using their mains for it. "Not a good idea. Usually the location of the mains is not ideal or bass." rolleyes.gif Well, yeah. We aren't just using ONE speaker now are we? We have at least two or three up front AND a subwoofer. Maybe several.

The other thing is if we let our mains roll off naturally or just a whole lot lower than the typical 80hz cross that you could get a smoother blend between sub and speaker.

I could go on forever but that's the jist of it. Better sound, better bass response, better blending of mains with subs.

+1

I've been playing around with running full range on 2 different sets of capable mains over the last few months -- LS-6's and Yorkville Unitys -- and concur. Running them full range just yields a, well, fuller sound. The 6's I knew would be able to handle full-tilt full range and shine, but the wasn't so sure about the Unity as they are not known for having great bass. They still might be deemed a bit bass shy (no eq being used yet, but a global +1 or 2 on the bass rounds them out), but they have impressed me with their ability to sound 'fuller' as well running all the way open and the 18Sound 15ND930's 7.5 mm xmax isn't stressed out at all (and they are ported).
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post #378 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 10:47 PM
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yorkville u15 frequency response on left side: http://music.ashbysolutions.com/york.htm

if the dual woof is the same as the single, crossing them in at 40-50hz would seem to make some sense.

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post #379 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 10:48 PM
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I know my Triple 12LF won't go that low. Even Jeff recommended 80hz for them.
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post #380 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 10:53 PM
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I know my Triple 12LF won't go that low. Even Jeff recommended 80hz for them.

Yes, the JTR speakers are a resonant design and have an open vent that is tuned up high.

You very well could try stuffing each slot and give a full range signal a try.

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post #381 of 538 Old 01-29-2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yorkville u15 frequency response on left side: http://music.ashbysolutions.com/york.htm

if the dual woof is the same as the single, crossing them in at 40-50hz would seem to make some sense.

That does sound like sage advice considering the precipitous drop-off shown there. I will admit to mostly music listening on the YV's to date, so they have yet to be pushed with the really deep HT stuff. I am going to plug up the holes and see how they sound some day.
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post #382 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 06:02 AM
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To me, the thing that I like about running my LCR's full range, is that I am now able to hear the sounds in the movies as they should be heard as both the directer intended and as they would sound in real life. If there is an action screen in a movie that I am watching, then I want to hear it as it would sound in real life. Speaking of which, in real life, your ears don't have crossovers, and they are not limited to 80hz, so having big, capable, full range LCR's are very important to me. I don't think I could ever go back to a smaller speaker ran with an 80hz crossover. As a matter of fact, I am in the process of building 3 different trio's of LCR's for a sort of shoot out in my theater room, all of which will be capable of running a full range signal.
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post #383 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:16 AM
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 Running them full range just yields a, well, fuller sound.

It'd be interesting to see response graphs of 1 sub with 60-80 hz crossover, versus 1 sub / and speakers run Large. 

And then 2+ subs with crossover and run Large.

 

I'm wondering if some of the fullness is due to excessive bass at certain frequencies, and just how much smoothing one gets. 

 

For instance, Gedde's method doesn't call for 4-5 "subs" at the front of the room, but that's what you get if you have 1+ subs at front, plus 3 full range capable speakers.

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post #384 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:18 AM
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To me, the thing that I like about running my LCR's full range, is that I am now able to hear the sounds in the movies as they should be heard as both the directer intended and as they would sound in real life. If there is an action screen in a movie that I am watching, then I want to hear it as it would sound in real life. Speaking of which, in real life, your ears don't have crossovers, and they are not limited to 80hz, so having big, capable, full range LCR's are very important to me. I don't think I could ever go back to a smaller speaker ran with an 80hz crossover. As a matter of fact, I am in the process of building 3 different trio's of LCR's for a sort of shoot out in my theater room, all of which will be capable of running a full range signal.

always thought that anything below 80hz wasn't directional, so whether they came from the LCR or subwoofers, in a properly setup room, you're not supposed to be able to tell where its coming from.
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post #385 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:30 AM
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always thought that anything below 80hz wasn't directional, so whether they came from the LCR or subwoofers, in a properly setup room, you're not supposed to be able to tell where its coming from.
True. From an engineering standpoint the only difference between a large floor stander that runs from 20Hz to 20kHz and a sub/mains system that runs from 20Hz to 20kHz is that the floor stander puts the components all in the same box.

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post #386 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:32 AM
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It is not a hard line, but neither is a crossover. With an 80hz crossover, there is still below-80hz information coming through the LCR channels, and it remains discreet. It's easy enough to test, I just ran some test tones through L/R channels and panned left to right. I find 80hz is still slightly localized, 60hz is fully ambient. I can also hear that with an 80hz crossover, plenty of bass info is still going to the speakers at 80hz and even at 60hz, enough to 'guarantee' that the stereo image is as well formed as it's going to be.
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always thought that anything below 80hz wasn't directional, so whether they came from the LCR or subwoofers, in a properly setup room, you're not supposed to be able to tell where its coming from.

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post #387 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:39 AM
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The reason it wasn't recommended to use fronts at full range plus a sub, is like Scott said... most speakers just couldn't get that low with any useful SPL or clarity without sacrificing something. These SEOS designs are so good though, that I'm in agreement with "spread the bass around" for these.
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post #388 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

To me, the thing that I like about running my LCR's full range, is that I am now able to hear the sounds in the movies as they should be heard as both the directer intended and as they would sound in real life.

How do you know that sound mixers didn't use subs? 

 

If they did run three full range speakers up front, I hope that the room designer made SURE that the bass at those locations yielded even response at the mixing position(s). One should be prepared to measure the response and ensure it's working in one's own room. Not saying you didn't do that, or that it doesn't work perfectly in your room. But in some rooms the modal response would be worse than two mid-wall subs. For instance, maybe the L & R could run full range, but not the C. Or vice-versa. Or require some placement changes.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "in real life" ?

 

 

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Speaking of which, in real life, your ears don't have crossovers, and they are not limited to 80hz, so having big, capable, full range LCR's are very important to me. 
 

I'm not sure what this means? The system is...a system. We're trying to recreate the director and mixer's intention. 

 

Are you advocating for a full range driver in a full range speaker (one driver that reproduces the entire speaker's range)? 

There are single cone drivers that do this, or there are versions with "whizzer cones" or a coaxial tweeter that avoid any crossover circuitry. There's a whole site devoted to these designs.

 

If that's not what you want, then if you're using speakers like these SEOS designs, you're using a crossover, despite the lack of such in your ears.

 

I'm okay with crossovers, as I know that's just one of many compromises I've made as part of a system. The benefit is drivers playing within the pass-band they're designed for, and concentrating amplification where it's needed most: the subwoofer frequencies, and having smaller boxes for the other speakers.

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post #389 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
One needs extremely capable speakers in order to even take advantage fully. Many typical speakers will run out of gas and compress and just sound awful at louder SPL levels. There is also the real danger of speaker damage too.

What are the amplifier requirements at 20Hz for these speakers...say...yours or Gorilla's?

Is the woofer staying within linear Xmax  at those frequencies and wattages?

 

As Bill F said, we're simply talking about another subwoofer existing in the same box as the speaker.
So, wouldn't another caveat be that the amplifier requirements for full range are similar to what we need in subs: 300w, 1000w, etc.?

 

If they can extend 20 Hz with authority, then they're like the two channel Hi Fi stereo speakers, and they're either not sensitive or they're humongous!

 

I'd add another caveat that we should be able to measure the change so we're not going backwards more than forwards?

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post #390 of 538 Old 01-30-2013, 09:47 AM
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It'd be interesting to see response graphs of 1 sub with 60-80 hz crossover, versus 1 sub / and speakers run Large. 
And then 2+ subs with crossover and run Large.

I'm wondering if some of the fullness is due to excessive bass at certain frequencies, and just how much smoothing one gets. 

For instance, Gedde's method doesn't call for 4-5 "subs" at the front of the room, but that's what you get if you have 1+ subs at front, plus 3 full range capable speakers.

I will do this tonight or tomorrow night as I begin to incorporate my subs into the new mains. I will try and post the graphs over in my TD12x thread.

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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The reason it wasn't recommended to use fronts at full range plus a sub, is like Scott said... most speakers just couldn't get that low with any useful SPL or clarity without sacrificing something. These SEOS designs are so good though, that I'm in agreement with "spread the bass around" for these.

Yes, definitely spread the bass around, but also, keep in mind that running Rilla or my speakers completely full range on bass heavy movies is still likely to blow something. now Music is another story entirely.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

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