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post #1 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Now that my LFE/sub project has been completed, I'm starting to think/hear that an upgrade to my main LCR is in order. I'd like to build something similar to a T12 setup. Budget lets say under 1000 per speaker. My SHO-10s have done a great job until now, but I'm starting to find myself dialing back the subs a bit because they are so overpowering. I will note that i would like the upgrade to be a significant improvement. Not a bad problem to have I guess. biggrin.gif right now I'm using my Denon 4311 for power, but would like to upgrade to a pro amp. A 4 ohm configuration per speaker would be ideal.

Ideas anyone?
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post #2 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 04:19 AM
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I guess the most obvious choice would be the SEOS speakers. 15's with the JBL woofers maybe? Those should keep up better and you could power them cheap. Probably still just use your avr or get a smaller Emotiva amp. I'm not familiar with the T12

Edit: why 4 ohms?

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post #3 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess the most obvious choice would be the SEOS speakers. 15's with the JBL woofers maybe? Those should keep up better and you could power them cheap. Probably still just use your avr or get a smaller Emotiva amp. I'm not familiar with the T12
Edit: why 4 ohms?

Here is some info on the T12 that should give you a good idea of what I'm looking for: Multiple drivers, 130+DB output potential, 1000+W power handling. I'd like 4 ohms to get the most out of the amp. I already have several pro amps around the house that I can use for power. I will probably hook up the SHOs to one of them soon enough to see what (if any) difference it makes.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-12ht/
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post #4 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 05:56 AM
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Oh THOSE T12's. ok. im familiar with those. 130db on the mains seems a little insane though doesnt? Not that im against insane, im just saying...

just make some Jubescalas and be done with it LOL


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post #5 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 06:36 AM
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Try powering your SHOs with some real juice ie pro amps. Receivers are rated stereo 2ch period. I'm seeking a bit more myself even with pro amps at 250rms/ch. After a few test's plan on building dual delta 10s at 425rms into 4Ohms each. Dialing back the Danley's a little till that project is finished.

If find a suitable 4 ohm amp try testing with your sho's. Disconnect one of the horn's, then flip that box upside down and set on the floor. Stack another sho on top and wire them in parallel for 4 ohm. While not perfect it's a good test to see approx output of what''s possible. biggrin.gif

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post #6 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 06:49 AM
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I haven't heard the SHOs but I feel with as much grunt as you have with the silver backs the SHOs will prove to be the weakest link unless you run your subs up higher. A good test, turn off all the subs and run a familiar scene with just the front stage. If it doesn't sound percussive and capable on it's own then you probably need something more potent. I bet you probably have so much sub now that the midbass is not on the same level.
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post #7 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I haven't heard the SHOs but I feel with as much grunt as you have with the silver backs the SHOs will prove to be the weakest link unless you run your subs up higher. A good test, turn off all the subs and run a familiar scene with just the front stage. If it doesn't sound percussive and capable on it's own then you probably need something more potent. I bet you probably have so much sub now that the midbass is not on the same level.

The subs provide a heck of a lot of midbass, especially now that I've got them crossed at 100hz. I will see how they (the SHOs do with a pro amp on them. If I can get the same output like I do now at +5 or so with music and movies without compressing or distorting, I'll be a happy camper. biggrin.gif These speakers really are phenomenal considering the size and price. 99% of the listening zone they handle with ease and precision.
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Oh THOSE T12's. ok. im familiar with those. 130db on the mains seems a little insane though doesnt? Not that im against insane, im just saying...
just make some Jubescalas and be done with it LOL

Keep in mind I was quoting measurements from 1M - at the listening position it's going to be a lot lower.
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Try powering your SHOs with some real juice ie pro amps. Receivers are rated stereo 2ch period. I'm seeking a bit more myself even with pro amps at 250rms/ch. After a few test's plan on building dual delta 10s at 425rms into 4Ohms each. Dialing back the Danley's a little till that project is finished.
If find a suitable 4 ohm amp try testing with your sho's. Disconnect one of the horn's, then flip that box upside down and set on the floor. Stack another sho on top and wire them in parallel for 4 ohm. While not perfect it's a good test to see approx output of what''s possible. biggrin.gif

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have an EP4000 sitting around collecting dust so I may as well give it a shot. I'll be going from like 130 watts to 450ish so that should help a good bit. Hopefully I don't melt anything. biggrin.gif Tomorrow morning my wife is out so seems like a good opportunity.
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post #8 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I guess the most obvious choice would be the SEOS speakers. 15's with the JBL woofers maybe? Those should keep up better and you could power them cheap. Probably still just use your avr or get a smaller Emotiva amp. I'm not familiar with the T12
Edit: why 4 ohms?

This will give you all you need and have headroom to spare. I went from T8's to SEOS-12/DNA-360 and TD12M's and it was a step up over the T8's. The T8's were not as smooth and clean. Listening at reference is very good now. If you really want to go all out, then use a 15" above and below the SEOS-15.

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post #9 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

The subs provide a heck of a lot of midbass, especially now that I've got them crossed at 100hz. I will see how they (the SHOs do with a pro amp on them. If I can get the same output like I do now at +5 or so with music and movies without compressing or distorting, I'll be a happy camper. biggrin.gif These speakers really are phenomenal considering the size and price. 99% of the listening zone they handle with ease and precision.
Keep in mind I was quoting measurements from 1M - at the listening position it's going to be a lot lower.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I have an EP4000 sitting around collecting dust so I may as well give it a shot. I'll be going from like 130 watts to 450ish so that should help a good bit. Hopefully I don't melt anything. biggrin.gif Tomorrow morning my wife is out so seems like a good opportunity.

Melt; yah I'd watch it putting more than about 350rms into a single SHO. Just dial back the gains a little and you'll be fine. If you have 4 SHOs try the stacking to make 2 towers and see what i'm talking about cool.gif

You haven't seen cone movement until your running some true 100+ rms /ch. The Mid's are in there I promise biggrin.gif High sensitivity or not these speakers are designed to handle real watts that the AVR's seriously lack.

"I should really see what dB levels I'm pushing. Long as it can't foam my beer during a movie we are ok "
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post #10 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by autox320 View Post

Melt; yah I'd watch it putting more than about 350rms into a single SHO. Just dial back the gains a little and you'll be fine. If you have 4 SHOs try the stacking to make 2 towers and see what i'm talking about cool.gif
You haven't seen cone movement until your running some true 100+ rms /ch. The Mid's are in there I promise biggrin.gif High sensitivity or not these speakers are designed to handle real watts that the AVR's seriously lack.

Unfortunately I just have the front 3 - 4 would have been nice so I could try 2 double stacks. I will give them a whirl later this evening or tomorrow morning with the EP - dialed back just a little bit. tongue.gif
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This will give you all you need and have headroom to spare. I went from T8's to SEOS-12/DNA-360 and TD12M's and it was a step up over the T8's. The T8's were not as smooth and clean. Listening at reference is very good now. If you really want to go all out, then use a 15" above and below the SEOS-15.

This is great input, thank you. I had looked hard at the TD15's prior, maybe it's time to continue my research. I'm sure a 15" version and a pro amp would get it done for sure. Does DIYSoundgroup offer a baffle and/or kit for the 15s?

Also - How difficult is it to acquire the TD drivers these days?
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post #11 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 10:31 AM
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Copy the design I'm working on, Gorilla.


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #12 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 11:21 AM
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I went from SHO-10 to 4Pi with JBL 2226H and Erich's DE250 clone.
The difference is anything but subtle. I am running them off AVR but they can take 600W if ever need it.
I agree with others who suggested you may want to try better quality two ways with bigger woofers just to check if this is something you can live with.
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post #13 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I went from SHO-10 to 4Pi with JBL 2226H and Erich's DE250 clone.
The difference is anything but subtle. I am running them off AVR but they can take 600W if ever need it.
I agree with others who suggested you may want to try better quality two ways with bigger woofers just to check if this is something you can live with.

Also great input, thank you. Are the JBL's available through Erich?
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Copy the design I'm working on, Gorilla.

LOL Scott, you're an animal! I wish I had the space for something like that. I'm limited to about 25" width with my current setup.
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post #14 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 02:15 PM
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You can build the same overall design but nix the quad 15's and use dual 18's or 21's.

Just a thought...

It would be pretty simple to build a hybrid active/passive copy of my system. The midrange is Wayne Parhams horn midrange kit ($100 flatpack) plus an Eminence Delta 10 driver. Get three of each. Then get either the B&C DE250 or Erich's DNA-360 for the top. Wayne sells or will give you the plans for the mid/high crossover he uses in his 7pi system. Power the mid and high with one amp and power the bass with a second amp... or channel. One ep4000 could power each speaker and then you could buy two MiniDSP's to cross all three speakers and have a couple left over outputs for LFE.

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post #15 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 02:21 PM
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Are the JBL's available through Erich?
Erich had 2226J, the 16 Ohm version, at some point. That's probably not what you'd want.
there are always some H or HPL on ebay. I picked up mine on craigslist for fraction of retail price.
paying full retail for these makes no sense.
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post #16 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 04:45 PM
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The one SEOS 15 has a sensitivity of 96 and can handle 500 watts. That puts out over 116db from 10 feet away. That's very loud. Almost pain inducing.

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post #17 of 538 Old 12-27-2012, 05:29 PM
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What I am wanting to do is run the TD15M/SEOS 15/DNA-360 for L/C/R and run 3 TD18H+ under the 3 mains for midbass (50-125htz).

You probably don't need the extra midbass though smile.gif
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post #18 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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What I am wanting to do is run the TD15M/SEOS 15/DNA-360 for L/C/R and run 3 TD18H+ under the 3 mains for midbass (50-125htz).
You probably don't need the extra midbass though smile.gif

The top half of that setup is very appealing to me. Is this a big advantage of the td15m over the td12m? The prices are almost the same.
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You can build the same overall design but nix the quad 15's and use dual 18's or 21's.
Just a thought...
It would be pretty simple to build a hybrid active/passive copy of my system. The midrange is Wayne Parhams horn midrange kit ($100 flatpack) plus an Eminence Delta 10 driver. Get three of each. Then get either the B&C DE250 or Erich's DNA-360 for the top. Wayne sells or will give you the plans for the mid/high crossover he uses in his 7pi system. Power the mid and high with one amp and power the bass with a second amp... or channel. One ep4000 could power each speaker and then you could buy two MiniDSP's to cross all three speakers and have a couple left over outputs for LFE.

Likely overkill for what I need but we both know that eventually I will want/need to upgrade eventually anyway. biggrin.gif
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Erich had 2226J, the 16 Ohm version, at some point. That's probably not what you'd want.
there are always some H or HPL on ebay. I picked up mine on craigslist for fraction of retail price.
paying full retail for these makes no sense.

There are a ton of jbl 2226h's like you said. How do these compare to the td15m? They can be had a bit cheaper, at least used.
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The one SEOS 15 has a sensitivity of 96 and can handle 500 watts. That puts out over 116db from 10 feet away. That's very loud. Almost pain inducing.

That will be more than plenty! That is likely past my needs but headroom is headroom. biggrin.gif
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post #19 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 06:58 PM
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There are a ton of jbl 2226h's like you said. How do these compare to the td15m? They can be had a bit cheaper, at least used.

I would not know. there were discussions about each in the SEOS thread.
can you actually buy td15m now? i thought the group buy guys are still waiting for theirs.
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post #20 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:08 PM
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look for a pair of klipsch klf-30s or lascalas on craigslist if you're impatient. Theres a pair local to me @ 600 bucks.
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post #21 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:18 PM
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I was going to suggest la scalas but I don't think he has the room up front for them. They have crazy dynamics. They are the reason I built my cornscalas.

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post #22 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:32 PM
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Forum member MTG-90 just designed a really nice SEOS speaker using a 15" B&C woofer that will put out some serious volume and it's very clean. I've got all the parts for the kit, I just haven't taken an updated photo of all of it yet. I think the price was around $400. Not sure what speaker would compete with it for that price. It would be quite a few steps above the SHO speakers you mentioned. Of course, one of the 12" models designed by Jeff Bagby would be as well.
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post #23 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:38 PM
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Honestly, there is no way you would need more clean volume than the speakers Eric just mentioned. I would have built them if I did not enjoy two channel stuff as much as I do.

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post #24 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:52 PM
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Rilla I am also embarking on a td12x seos build and I am supremely confident that it will be able to keep up with whatever I throw at it.

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post #25 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I would not know. there were discussions about each in the SEOS thread.
can you actually buy td15m now? i thought the group buy guys are still waiting for theirs.

It does seem like have been very backed up although apparently they are supposed to start shipping again now.
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Forum member MTG-90 just designed a really nice SEOS speaker using a 15" B&C woofer that will put out some serious volume and it's very clean. I've got all the parts for the kit, I just haven't taken an updated photo of all of it yet. I think the price was around $400. Not sure what speaker would compete with it for that price. It would be quite a few steps above the SHO speakers you mentioned. Of course, one of the 12" models designed by Jeff Bagby would be as well.

Erich - is there a huge advantage to the 15" b&c vs. something like the tempest? Whatever I wind up doing I will certainly be sourcing the majority of parts through you. cool.gif
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Rilla I am also embarking on a td12x seos build and I am supremely confident that it will be able to keep up with whatever I throw at it.

Beast - I will shoot you a PM to discuss if that's cool.
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post #26 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 08:03 PM
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I already have a pretty capable sub system for my small room and it will be more capable once I pull out a 12" Shiva-X and replace it with two SI 18". I will have the two SI 18" and a Mal-X 18" up front and a pair of 12" TC Sounds in each back corner. I can tell you right now that listening at reference in my room is great with the TD12M/SEOS-12 with DNA-360. I don't really see a need to go louder than reference. Reference levels sound better in my room than they ever have.

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post #27 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Forum member MTG-90 just designed a really nice SEOS speaker using a 15" B&C woofer that will put out some serious volume and it's very clean. I've got all the parts for the kit, I just haven't taken an updated photo of all of it yet. I think the price was around $400. Not sure what speaker would compete with it for that price.

is this the woofer?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-670
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post #28 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 08:16 PM
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Erich - is there a huge advantage to the 15" b&c vs. something like the tempest?

Max SPL Xmax limited with max rated program power: (Edit I had the wrong enclosure size for the B&C, it is now corrected)


Note that is with all three ports open which will give greatest mid bass impact. I usually keep it with one port pluged which still hits pretty hard but gives better extension.
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post #29 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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post #30 of 538 Old 12-28-2012, 08:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago burbs
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how does it compare with the 2226H design you just finished?

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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Max SPL Xmax limited with max rated program power:

Note that is with all three ports open which will give greatest mid bass impact. I usually keep it with one port pluged which still hits pretty hard but gives better extension.
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