Just played my DIY sub for the first time. Something is not right..... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok here is a link with all the info on my sub cause I dont wanna type it all out again.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441113/winisd-doesnt-have-my-subwoofer#post_22742051

The sub went in to a sealed box that I originally wanted 4.8 cubic feet but turned out being 5.6 cubic feet, pretty big I know.

Today I got my Crown XLS2000 amp in and got everything hooked up and the output is just NOT THERE. I have to turn the amp gain up all the way to actually get any bass and then there is major audible distortion coming from the sub at that gain level.

I mean the sub is dual 2 ohm 1250 watts RMS and I am running 2100 watts to it in 4ohm bridged.

My receiver is a Pioneer Elite SC-25, maybe its not putting out the volts?
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:07 PM
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No, the problem clearly lies somewhere else. I just got a Pioneer Elite SC-55 - plenty of output on the sub channel. So far all the AVRs and all the pro amps I've had a chance to try were able to successfully interface with the regular subwoofer output. How are you EQing the sub? That's the first place I would look for a problem. Take it easy so you don't damage anything, that much power should be rocking the house.
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Ok here is a link with all the info on my sub cause I dont wanna type it all out again.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441113/winisd-doesnt-have-my-subwoofer#post_22742051
The sub went in to a sealed box that I originally wanted 4.8 cubic feet but turned out being 5.6 cubic feet, pretty big I know.
Today I got my Crown XLS2000 amp in and got everything hooked up and the output is just NOT THERE. I have to turn the amp gain up all the way to actually get any bass and then there is major audible distortion coming from the sub at that gain level.
I mean the sub is dual 2 ohm 1250 watts RMS and I am running 2100 watts to it in 4ohm bridged.
My receiver is a Pioneer Elite SC-25, maybe its not putting out the volts?

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post #3 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:10 PM
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What are the signal lights on the amp doing when this is going on?

You might have the voice coils wired out of phase.
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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IDK know how I'm EQ ing it? I kind of kept the same receiver settings as I had on my old sub to compare the 2 and there is hardly any bass at all without cranking the amp gain. and then it's marginal at best!

I had my Velodyne 10 inch sub running at -5.5db on the receiver and about 40% gain and it was louder.
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:13 PM
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Definitely sounds like the coils aren't wired right.

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post #6 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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The amp signal light is only blinking green and never even touching the -20 light.

I wired the sub in series for 4ohm. It's wired identical to this wiring diagram for SERIES

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/woofer_configurations.asp?Q=1&I=22#results
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:21 PM
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If its not hard to do, I would check the wiring anyway. Sometimes we make mistakes even though we've done it right a thousand times.

Also maybe a stray wire is grounding out on the sub or amp somewhere. All it takes is that one little "hair" touching something to throw everything off.

Just my input, that's the first thing I would do. Because if any of this is the case, the more you make the amp/speaker deal with it the higher the chance of ruining something.

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post #8 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:40 PM
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A sealed sub with no EQ is going to sound like it has no deep bass, tons of mid-bass. You can't just hook it up to a pro amp with no EQ. Either you need a ported design or you need to figure out how to put a nice 6db/octave (or so) boost into that sub most people use the FDP or the MiniDSP, or else they buy an amp that has built-in DSP like an iNuke or a Crown XTi.

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post #9 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

A sealed sub with no EQ is going to sound like it has no deep bass, tons of mid-bass. You can't just hook it up to a pro amp with no EQ.
That's not necessarily true. It all depends on the Q of the sub and how it couples to the room. Here's a set of sealed subs with no EQ.



It's not pretty and can definitely use some EQ to flatten it up, but it's not certainly devoid of deep bass.
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post #10 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 06:03 PM
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TenTonBass, I may or may not have the solution to your problem. I had a similar situation as yours as I have the XLS2500. Those crown amps have some basic crossovers built into them. I acidentially had a HPF (Highpass) set at 99Hz on the crown amp so the subs were trying to reproduce high frequencies instead of low frequencies. Once I changed the crossover to a LPF (Lowpass) all was good. What does yours main screen say? Mine says stereo lowpass and I believe that yours should say bridged lowpass. You might want to try a 83Hz or so lowpass filter. Another issue that I had was that my volume on my processor wasn't high enough to give the amp enough juice. You'll need to get your receiver/processor volume to around -10dB to get some decent output from it. I had to set my speakers to -15dB so that I could pump up the volume on my onkyo to get enough juice sent out to the crown. Another alternative is to use a bump box such as a samson. I went that route at first and it worked great but I didn't want to have too much stuff in my signal chain (bump box and a MiniDSP) so I tried that method and it worked well for me.

You can read this post to see what I'm talking about referring to the levels. Disregard the references to the MiniDSP as the implementation is the same:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443652/minidsp-require-signal-boost-with-pro-amps#post_22683367
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post #11 of 29 Old 01-02-2013, 06:39 PM
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sorry to hear about your frustrating situation.

just to test the wiring on the driver, connect the sub to a 9v battery and make sure the cone moves when it is connected. if it doesn't move, something is wired wrong with the driver.

"I kind of kept the same receiver settings as I had on my old sub..."

this may be part of the problem. are you running redirected bass? what do you have your subwoofer trim level set to?

are you sure that you have the amp set up properly for bridged mode?

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post #12 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile1178 View Post

TenTonBass, I may or may not have the solution to your problem. I had a similar situation as yours as I have the XLS2500. Those crown amps have some basic crossovers built into them. I acidentially had a HPF (Highpass) set at 99Hz on the crown amp so the subs were trying to reproduce high frequencies instead of low frequencies. Once I changed the crossover to a LPF (Lowpass) all was good. What does yours main screen say? Mine says stereo lowpass and I believe that yours should say bridged lowpass. You might want to try a 83Hz or so lowpass filter. Another issue that I had was that my volume on my processor wasn't high enough to give the amp enough juice. You'll need to get your receiver/processor volume to around -10dB to get some decent output from it. I had to set my speakers to -15dB so that I could pump up the volume on my onkyo to get enough juice sent out to the crown. Another alternative is to use a bump box such as a samson. I went that route at first and it worked great but I didn't want to have too much stuff in my signal chain (bump box and a MiniDSP) so I tried that method and it worked well for me.
You can read this post to see what I'm talking about referring to the levels. Disregard the references to the MiniDSP as the implementation is the same:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443652/minidsp-require-signal-boost-with-pro-amps#post_22683367

This could be it. The amp was set on bridge bypass so I set it to bridge lowpass with an 83hz crossover. I cant play it now for fear of waking up the rest of the house so I will have to wait till morning to see if this works!
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 03:20 AM
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"bridge bypass" should be fine. In fact, I would switch it back to "bridge bypass" to avoid having the lowpass active, since you don't need it. It was a good suggestion from Audiophile1178, but it sounds like that wasn't the problem.

-Max
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 04:44 AM
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Also, which terminals are you using on the back of the amp for bridge mode? It should be the two red ones.
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Yup I have the proper bridge terminals being used. I am going to pull out the terminal cup and look inside to see if I wired it correctly here shortly. And I am definately changing my settings on reciever to what Audiophile did. I will let you all know.
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 01:01 PM
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If your wiring is correct, also make sure each voice coil is wired properly on the sub. use the 9v battery test on each coil to make sure there wasn't a human error made during manufacturing. +9v on each coils +/red terminal should push the cone out. Might as well be thorough testing if you are pulling things apart.
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post #17 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I think we are on the right track now. First thing I did was change outlets and that got rid of the ground hum / distortion at high volume (Thank God). Then I ran MCACC all over again and I'm quite sure this helped. I also took the advice of audiophile and turned my speaker sensitivity down on everything but the sub.

She is hitting now and the juice is flowing, on the intro in Star Trek the sub unexpectedly popped which made me turn down the gain. Now I have to be careful which is better than being underwhelmed!

Thanks guys.
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post #18 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 04:19 PM
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If you have a voltmeter, might be a good idea to check how much voltage you're sending, to ensure your peak is within the limits of your design


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post #19 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 05:28 PM
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Explosions in certain big budget films have such low frequency content they will either clip or max out your sub's excursion. If it's clipping, turn on the limiters. If you're out of excursion, you need another sub, or you need a high-pass filter.
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Ok, I think we are on the right track now. First thing I did was change outlets and that got rid of the ground hum / distortion at high volume (Thank God). Then I ran MCACC all over again and I'm quite sure this helped. I also took the advice of audiophile and turned my speaker sensitivity down on everything but the sub.
She is hitting now and the juice is flowing, on the intro in Star Trek the sub unexpectedly popped which made me turn down the gain. Now I have to be careful which is better than being underwhelmed!
Thanks guys.

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post #20 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 06:44 PM
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glad you got it working ttb

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post #21 of 29 Old 01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
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TenTonBass, Glad I could help. You problem sounded just like what I had experienced. Instead, I bought a Samson S-Convert which worked fine but then I thought about that idea of adjusting the levels accordingly to get rid of the Samson. If you think about it, the bump box just raises the levels up higher. The same thing can be done from adjusting the rest of the speakers by lowering the levels. It was initially weird to me having the volume at -8dB or so as the highest that I would've previously gone was -18dB but it all makes sense now the more that I read about it on this board. I wonder how many people are using bump boxes that don't need to? smile.gif

The idea orginally came to me from reading how people calibrate and levels their subs. They say to lower the peaks and try to raise the nulls. Well, as I thought about it the rest of the speakers were my peaks and the sub was the null as there wasn't a lot of sound coming out of it. There are tons of other people on here that bump their sub levels all the way and to me it seems like it's the wrong way to go about it. I don't know if the way that I did it is the right way or the wrong way but it does seem to work (at least for me). tongue.gif
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post #22 of 29 Old 01-04-2013, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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To find your sweet spot did you just keep adjusting the receiver sub level or did you play with the amp gain also? The reason I ask is that like I said I was watching Star Trek and a scene came on that I believe over exerted the sub so I turned down the receiver from +3db to 0db and it played perfect after that.

But then when I put in Jaws and went to the scene where they first encounter the shark on Quints boat, a scene with DEEP bass from John Williams score, there was no OOMPH there anymore unless I turned the amp gain up a few more notches.

Maybe I just gotta play around a little more.
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post #23 of 29 Old 01-04-2013, 05:03 AM
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Pioneer AVRs do not EQ the bass the same way Audyssey based units do. Besides, if you got a proper EQ you would be able to dial in the exact bass you want instead of guessing and dealing with it in such broad strokes.
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To find your sweet spot did you just keep adjusting the receiver sub level or did you play with the amp gain also? The reason I ask is that like I said I was watching Star Trek and a scene came on that I believe over exerted the sub so I turned down the receiver from +3db to 0db and it played perfect after that.
But then when I put in Jaws and went to the scene where they first encounter the shark on Quints boat, a scene with DEEP bass from John Williams score, there was no OOMPH there anymore unless I turned the amp gain up a few more notches.
Maybe I just gotta play around a little more.

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post #24 of 29 Old 01-04-2013, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

To find your sweet spot did you just keep adjusting the receiver sub level or did you play with the amp gain also? The reason I ask is that like I said I was watching Star Trek and a scene came on that I believe over exerted the sub so I turned down the receiver from +3db to 0db and it played perfect after that.
But then when I put in Jaws and went to the scene where they first encounter the shark on Quints boat, a scene with DEEP bass from John Williams score, there was no OOMPH there anymore unless I turned the amp gain up a few more notches.
Maybe I just gotta play around a little more.

TenTonBass, I don't have any "real" subs at the moment in my condo so I have never experience that "DEEP" bass that you all know and love. What I currently have is two JL 10W1v2's in a sealed truck box that was built back in 1998 which was built for a 1993 Ford Ranger Regular Cab which had in it two old sckool JL 10W0's. My 10W1's just happen to fit in the box. My 24" ported boxes for my two JL 10W7's are almost done. I don't have any correction mics or what not but what I do have is an ONKYO PR-SC885 Processor with regular Audyssey, a MiniDSP and a Radio Shack Digital SPL meter. This is what I plan on doing when my sub boxes are done:

1. Calibrate the sub levels to the same level or slightly hotter (2-3 dB's) than the mains.
2. Play test tones from 10Hz - 100Hz in increments of 5Hz and take readings from my Radio Shack SPL meter to manually make a graph (maybe in excel). I might change it to 3Hz increments but I'll see how it goes.
3. Use my findings from step 2 to adjust my peaks and nulls using the MiniDSP.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as needed until satisfied.
5. Repeat step 1 to see if anything changed. If so, adjust accordingly.
6. Enjoy!

I don't know if this is the right method of doing it but it seems most logical to me. Here's a comparison of the truck box that I have now (in yellow) and what I'm going to have (in blue). I think that the two JL 10W7's which will be getting ~775w a piece hold their own fairly well to other (much larger) speakers that are mentioned here. If I had a house and could do it all over again I think that i'd be getting four of the new SI 18" HT subs but in a condo I think that would be a bit too much for my walled neighbors so i'm going to have to be satisfied with my two ported 10's. I think that it'll serve me well for the next few years until I graduate from college.

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There is a need for a proper EQ to get the most out of your sub. Good luck with these 'other methods'. If you change your mind, three options stand out: MiniDSP, Feedback Destroyer Pro, and Audyssey. Another choice is an amp with DSP built in (my solution). If you think MCACC is going to do it for you, you are never going to have a sub that sounds 'just right'. Audyssey EQs bass, MCACC will not . Do some Googling, you'll see.
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IDK know how I'm EQ ing it? I kind of kept the same receiver settings as I had on my old sub to compare the 2 and there is hardly any bass at all without cranking the amp gain. and then it's marginal at best!
I had my Velodyne 10 inch sub running at -5.5db on the receiver and about 40% gain and it was louder.

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post #26 of 29 Old 01-05-2013, 05:21 AM
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Is that a reading from the LP or close Mic or something else? You can 'get lucky' and have a sub that plays somewhat flat with no EQ, once you find the proper position. I'll guess that's not happening for the OP. EQ it is - or else it's the crawl test and countless readings with no guarantees. As you point out, a sub will benefit from EQ, even if it is extending below 20Hz.
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That's not necessarily true. It all depends on the Q of the sub and how it couples to the room. Here's a set of sealed subs with no EQ.

It's not pretty and can definitely use some EQ to flatten it up, but it's not certainly devoid of deep bass.

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post #27 of 29 Old 01-05-2013, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah I think that Feedback Destroyer is definately in my future. I at least figured out the over excursion problem. I just had amp gain way too high. I dialed it down to 50% on the gain and turned my reciever up to +5 db and now its kicking without over excurding. Theses amps are beast!
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post #28 of 29 Old 01-05-2013, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
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Is that a reading from the LP or close Mic or something else?
That is measured from the LP
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post #29 of 29 Old 01-05-2013, 07:02 AM
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Aces, that's a nice curve for sealed at LP, no EQ. Having two subs does help as well.
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That is measured from the LP

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