7.1 Speaker Recommendations, Please - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 01-08-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi everyone, I could use a little help in choosing my speakers. Primarily HT setup, but would like my fronts available for stereo duty for music. I don't really have a budget, but would look at $7000 as getting close to it. I want to build the very best set up I can, the first time.

My 20'x14'x8' room has concrete block on front and side walls. Right side wall has two windows, and left side wall has a pair of French doors. My screen is 126", so I only have 2' of room on either side of the screen.

For fronts, I need something that can be positioned close to the side walls. They can be a little out from the front wall. No taller than 66" from the floor. (I was looking at the Statements, but am concerned about their positioning in this location).

Side surrounds will be up high, but I don't want them reaching more than 14" from the ceiling.

Rear surrounds will be housed in a custom fullsize bookcase/cabinet covering the entire back wall.

Center can be as tall as 22".

I don't have a clue as to where I would place the sub, perhaps as part of the backwall cabinet, or even a pair on either side of the center. I am open to suggestions.

I will not be altering the walls, so recommendations of surface treatments that would work with my room and speaker choice would be helpful.

Here is a drawing of my room, below. The speaker locations are in green. Thanks in advance for any input.


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post #2 of 10 Old 01-09-2013, 08:31 AM
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That's $7k for 7 speakers and subs? 22" tall for the centre is a bit tight. And I'm not quite sure what this means: "Side surrounds will be up high, but I don't want them reaching more than 14" from the ceiling." Do you mean they can't be more than 14" tall?

Assuming you don't have many size restrictions or placement issues other than what you've posted.

Look at these for surround: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/alpha-series-kits/alpha8-kit.html

They're more than 14" tall, but maybe I'm mistaken and you can sneek that in there. Sides and rear if possible.

For fronts I'd consider this guy: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/other/seos-deltalite-kit.html

That will place the driver fairly close to the ground, which isn't exactly ideal, so for your center you may want to also consider: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/other/malcolm-kit.html

Or these: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion10-max-kit.html

The sound points up a bit on those and gets the woofer away from the floor a couple inches.

For Subs you said 7.1, but I think you should spend most of your money here. With the above recommendations, you're around $2000 including some MDF to make the cabs and terminals and such. I'd see if anyone else has subwoofer recommendations. But I'd say 4 high quality 15" subs in a dual opposed configuration. So that would be 2 boxes. I'd go even more if you can, but you didn't really mention what limits you have for space and such. Maybe four of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-642

Then a couple of nice amps like these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-409

Other people might have better recommendations on the subwoofers and amp than I do. But that would be about $4000 on subs. So under $2k. The speakers I've recommended may not seem like much at first glance. Those are great value and very high performance. And considering you're close to side walls, a waveguide speaker is a very very good way to go. You can toe the speaker in and the side wall reflections will be suppressed a lot just doing that. Statements against the wall like that would really hurt their sound. And that includes any speaker like the statements.
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post #3 of 10 Old 01-09-2013, 09:20 AM
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Nice ideas, good stuff.

The Deltalite 12s would be likely be great.

I'd approach this knowing the loudspeaker and room function as a system.

edit; I wanted to come back and preface this by saying ... you may full well already realize the significance of said approach

A loudspeaker system (mains, surrounds and subs), is only going to be a good as it's environment, and the set-up prowess of the operator. The room absolutely dominates the sound from the transition frequency, downward. So, in addition to the speakers/subs, plan for some treatment, and modest investment in measuring gear, a multi-sub processor of some type with manual capability to manipulate in both freq and time domain.

I'd probably go with four individual subs, instead of two-dual opposed, for increased optimization potential. In that line of thinking, I'd come up with some comprimises somewhere so that a significant effort could be put forth into room acoustics. I'd incorporate as much bass trapping as the room can aesthetically handle, and determine locations for early/first reflection attenuation at both the ceiling and sidewalls. Contemplate entirely absorbing the front wall area, at least where the mains are, incorporate the rear cabinet/wall unit into a diffusion/scattering approach.

If you absorb, you absorb it all. Ideally, a minimum of 4", w/a 4" gap,...otherwise you're merely filtering the reflected energy. Thus, you create a lifeless, dull, LF heavy reflection. So you either absorb it all, or none at all. Just don't filter the reflected energy,....very common, and easy to make mistake.

I'd go with rigid insulation if you're using panels of 4" thickness, all up to 8". From that point, I'd likely switch to fluffy insulation (cheaper and outperforms rigid at these thicknesses). Now, by all means if you need the rigid for structural reasons, go with it. Be mindful of the gap, and maximize effectiveness.


It's all about the room, the room's all about the time domain. A well optimized, well damped LF response from ~200hz on down, is wonderfully enjoyable, articulate, tight and tuneful,...just nothing like it. The vast majority of otherwise very competent systems I see around here at AVS, cannot possess the high clarity of a properly damped loudspeaker/room system.

I know the acoustics isn't as fun as picking out the speakers and subs, but it is the limiting factor.


Best of luck

btw; 7 posts in 5 years,...cool. I lurked for a few years before I ever joined up and began contributing.

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post #4 of 10 Old 01-09-2013, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. I am very interested in waveguides, so I am glad to hear that they can be placed near the walls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Look at these for surround: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/alpha-series-kits/alpha8-kit.html

They're more than 14" tall, but maybe I'm mistaken and you can sneek that in there. Sides and rear if possible.

I have a French door on the left, so I only have 14" between the top of the door to the ceiling. I understand the waveguide can be placed sideways, so is this really true and applicable in this situation?



Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

That will place the driver fairly close to the ground, which isn't exactly ideal, so for your center you may want to also consider: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/other/malcolm-kit.html

Or these: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion10-max-kit.html

The sound points up a bit on those and gets the woofer away from the floor a couple inches.

Could I angle the Malcolm speaker upwards to free up the sound?



Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


I know the acoustics isn't as fun as picking out the speakers and subs, but it is the limiting factor.

Yeah, I know that it is true. I will come back to your post more completely after I try to get settled on the speaker selection.
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post #5 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 07:37 AM
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Yes you could angle the Malcolm. There is also a Big Mal and a Daniel you should check out. All are the same bloodline but some are bigger or smaller.

You shouldn't flip that speaker sideways. Hmmm. MTG-90 has an on wall surround that would fit up there. Right here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=893feed8593c7f067e10825c1819f1b7&topic=71.0

Or I have a few designs here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=893feed8593c7f067e10825c1819f1b7&topic=37.0

Not sure if there is something better. Waveguides are definitely the way to go considering how close to walls you are. If you can build it right into the wall, zaph has an in wall design.?
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post #6 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 09:18 AM
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since you have enough budget, you might want to move up to a top of the line woofer such as the jbl 2226h or the td15m under a seos 12 for the mains. the difference is even lower distortion through good inductance management. an 18sounds 15nd930 or 15nmb420 would also work well, but neither of them have crossovers designed yet. place them on stands so the waveguides are around ear level or 1/3 up the screeen.

skip the center and use a phantom.

surrounds as mentioned above don't need to be spectacular.

four subs, one per corner or approximately would be good. the rss460 18" from parts express in 3-4 cubic feet sealed each and a pair of simple behringer inuke amps 6000dsp will give you plenty of bottom end for about $2k.

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post #7 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

It's all about the room, the room's all about the time domain. A well optimized, well damped LF response from ~200hz on down, is wonderfully enjoyable, articulate, tight and tuneful,...just nothing like it. The vast majority of otherwise very competent systems I see around here at AVS, cannot possess the high clarity of a properly damped loudspeaker/room system.

I know the acoustics isn't as fun as picking out the speakers and subs, but it is the limiting factor.

ditto, I consider them as follows: 33% room quality, 33% speaker quality, 33% electronics quality, 1% everything else.
So without a good room, your score drops from near 100% A+ to a 66% c+, regardless of the price or quality level of anything else.
It can make a decent system sound really good and a good system sound really bad, with or without.

The room is not only just timing, there is some spatial and amplitude variance as well. Taken to the extreme, if you have a cement wall on one side and screendoor on the other (or a wall and an open space etc), your left and right ear will not be in balance (100db vs 50db etc) and imaging will suffer greatly as a result.

In fact... timing is a computational vector of the source-A to target-B travel distance relative to the speed of sound; and for the amplitude, throw in the various absorption coefficients of various materials (such as lamps, air, drywall, glass, carpet, panels, etc)... Ok now I'm just splitting hairs and nerding out biggrin.gif

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post #8 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Yes you could angle the Malcolm.

I like the Malcolm in the middle, angled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

MTG-90 has an on wall surround that would fit up there. Right here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=893feed8593c7f067e10825c1819f1b7&topic=71.0

Looks like MTG-90's build of his MTG-06-OWS would be perfect for my 4 surrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

four subs, one per corner or approximately would be good. the rss460 18" from parts express in 3-4 cubic feet sealed each and a pair of simple behringer inuke amps 6000dsp will give you plenty of bottom end for about $2k.

I know I originally said 7.1, but you guys know how to spend my money. I like this sub/amp choice, so how about 4 subs, two on either side of the Malcolm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you might want to move up to a top of the line woofer such as the jbl 2226h or the td15m under a seos 12 for the mains

I can't find any cabinet and crossover designs for the TD15M and SEOS 12 combo. Are there any?
I do see an incomplete thread for the JBL 2226H and SEOS 12: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.msg1463#msg1463
(Unless it is a completed design, I doubt I would choose that speaker.)
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post #9 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 06:32 PM
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I don't think there is a TD15M design. The 2226 design is complete but you'll have to PM MTG90 to get the schematic. And it isn't in kit form. You're on your own to get the pieces.

There is this 15" kit http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion15-kit.html
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post #10 of 10 Old 01-10-2013, 06:34 PM
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The 2226H crossovers are available. I've made the passive but, haven't used the active yet.
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