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post #91 of 134 Old 10-08-2013, 08:53 PM
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java, man, did you ever get yourself sorted? just reading this thread and it tailed off in april!?!? with no apparent resolution....

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post #92 of 134 Old 10-11-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey LTD,

I guess I pretty much have tailed off in everything. wink.gif

New job, tons of travel, etc...

To answer your question, yes, in general I sorted my issues. I played with the levels between my art box and the amp. I would say it's more tame now, but still needs to be dialed to meet the subs potential. I'm still not thrilled. Happy, but not thrilled.

One of these weekends, I'll redo the rew measurements. One key thing I want to try is measuring through the AVR. I've been measuring directly into the sub amp. If I go through my AVR, I should be the full effect of the subs and my mains, right?

As always, thanks for your patient and helpful support.

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post #93 of 134 Old 10-11-2013, 08:09 PM
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i'm not sure if that is your problem. going back and looking at your measurements again what I am seeing are huge peaks and dips from room based modes and reflections. then I see that you have your subs in the corners! the first thing might be to move the subs out of the corners because that is where room modes are excited the most. the corner is a pressure spot for just about every room mode. one setup worth trying would be wall centers left/right and wall centers front/rear. that will excite much less room resonances and should give a smoother bass for free.

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post #94 of 134 Old 10-26-2013, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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My point was that I need to get a pure read in REW. I have "pre-AVR" reads but not with it through the AVR and Audyssey.

But, I totally get your point. I could be sitting in a null. Given the size of these beasts, it's hard to place them. I'll try to move them mid-room, but may need to keep them up front, but I can move them next to the center.

I also know I am way overdue for acoustic treatments. I need to move my equipment into an in-wall rack before I crank on the panels and bass traps. I've been traveling so much lately, my projects have come to a halt. Hopefully I can get some things done over Thanksgiving.

As always, thanks for the advice, LTD!!
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post #95 of 134 Old 12-15-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Update

Sorry I've been so slow on updating. I've been slammed on the job side with a ton of travel.

I was able to do some modifications per LTD's advice.

In changing the position of the subs, per below, I moved them out of the corners. It'll be a struggle (tight fit, wiring) to get them mid-room.


New Positioning



I do hear an improvement (sorry no time to redo rew measurements), but it's still not where I'd expect from my upgrade (single 12" to two 18"). I know I need to quantify my performance via REW (no time), but I guess what I was hoping for was more chest thump. My Paradigm 12" sub and my SEOs mains did a pretty good job (better in fact) in the chest thump than what I am feeling now.

One thing I did was drop my cross over in my AVR down to 60 hrtz and got a good improvements. Per my comments in my SEO main build, the 2512 have a great kick so this lets them stretch a bit more.

Another issue I am dealing with is what I think is the subs bottoming out. I am really struggling with my gain structure (avr -> clean box -> mini-dsp -> amp) and I may be pushing the subs too far (haven't seen red lights or even close, though). Anyway, I am still hearing a low metalic clunk. I'm assuming that since the driver cones are metallic, that may be their version of clipping.

I thought since these subs are sealed I wouldn't have to worry about bottoming out the drivers, but I'm trying work out a high pass filter in mini-dsp. I leveraged this tutorial: http://www.minidsp.com/support/community-powered-tutorials/201-dual-sub-integration

HPF via Mini-DSP



I also tried to leverage mini-DSP to boost the mid-bass to see if I could get the chest thump I'm missing. I know I need to do this via REW, but I'm usually tweaking this before a get together (like I am doing today). Anyway, the below was not enough and too much. I didn't get the chest thump, but it did drive the subs too much (thunking).

Mid-Bass Boost


So, I hopefully will have some free time over Christmas to work this out. My top priority is treatments. I'm planning to do super chunk traps in the front and 6-8" panels in the back. Probably 4" panel on the side walls. That should tame what is probably the biggest issue - my room.
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post #96 of 134 Old 12-15-2013, 12:35 PM
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are you sure the subs are in phase with the mains?

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post #97 of 134 Old 12-15-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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are you sure the subs are in phase with the mains?

Not sure how I check that. Is that a simple battery check or something in REW?

Thanks
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post #98 of 134 Old 12-28-2013, 05:26 PM
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Hi Java,

I think I am at a similar stage (more or less) of where you were at the end of page one of this thread. I recently (and a lot of thanks to the forum members) built a Dayton RSS460 Box. I have room of around 30x11 (little more in fact as it is open to another room) but size is not what is important for "the situation" as much as expectations, I had in the same location (near sitting area) in the same room an energy ESW-V10 300 watts subwoofer which performed pretty well for its size. And I didn't "feel" that punch that you are expecting when I moved to the Dayton RSS460.

I am using a crown XLS1000 (I might have needed a larger amp) without equalizer, but I am sure my Pioneer SC-07 is driving the crown pretty well, I can easily hit the clip light by playing either with the sc-07 gain or/and the crown knob. The RSS460 is acceptably delivering taking the room size, power, sealed, etc. but something is missing from an 18 inch sub compared to a smaller vented 10 inch sub. I can feel presence with the sub and the punch is not far from the 10 inch one but there is this underwhelmed feeling. I did feel the 10 inch rumbling (moving air) at certain times in certain movies better then the 18 inch and the opposite is happening as well sometimes. since I am feeling "presence" it might mean that some frequencies need equalizing to reach the punch (or maybe more) then the 10 inch ported (that one had a frequency response that starts from 23 Hz as per advertised specs) so I might be missing the 20-40 Hz that need equalizing and other frequencies as well (dunno until I get something to measure). the 10 inch woofer was much more dynamic.

I am considering getting a minidsp but not sure if I should get the balanced one and use it with unbalanced input/output because the (minidsp balanced) can drive the crown while the unbalanced one cannot (as I analyzed) not expert yet in all of this.

I think using the equalizer will help a little but I don't know why I am underwhelmed (similar to your feeling) (one ported 12 inch to two 18 inch sealed) and me (jump from one ported 10 inch to one sealed 18 inch). I know I should have got more power like 1500-2000 watts instead of the current 1100. a minidsp might ameliorate my feeling by possibly 25% which is good but as well at an additional cost. I mean my 400 USD subwoofer "almost" gave me same feeling then this new 700+ USD 18 inch driver box. I think I am happy with the new sub but I thought that if I got a smaller 12 inch ported, I might have had a better WAF and as well similar outcome with less trouble and less money.

I need to get a minidsp when I travel the US and see what comes out but just saying that you are not the only one with that underwhelmed feeling.

By the way, are things better now with your setup?
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post #99 of 134 Old 12-29-2013, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post

Hi Java,

I think I am at a similar stage (more or less) of where you were at the end of page one of this thread. I recently (and a lot of thanks to the forum members) built a Dayton RSS460 Box. I have room of around 30x11 (little more in fact as it is open to another room) but size is not what is important for "the situation" as much as expectations, I had in the same location (near sitting area) in the same room an energy ESW-V10 300 watts subwoofer which performed pretty well for its size. And I didn't "feel" that punch that you are expecting when I moved to the Dayton RSS460.

I am using a crown XLS1000 (I might have needed a larger amp) without equalizer, but I am sure my Pioneer SC-07 is driving the crown pretty well, I can easily hit the clip light by playing either with the sc-07 gain or/and the crown knob. The RSS460 is acceptably delivering taking the room size, power, sealed, etc. but something is missing from an 18 inch sub compared to a smaller vented 10 inch sub. I can feel presence with the sub and the punch is not far from the 10 inch one but there is this underwhelmed feeling. I did feel the 10 inch rumbling (moving air) at certain times in certain movies better then the 18 inch and the opposite is happening as well sometimes. since I am feeling "presence" it might mean that some frequencies need equalizing to reach the punch (or maybe more) then the 10 inch ported (that one had a frequency response that starts from 23 Hz as per advertised specs) so I might be missing the 20-40 Hz that need equalizing and other frequencies as well (dunno until I get something to measure). the 10 inch woofer was much more dynamic.

I am considering getting a minidsp but not sure if I should get the balanced one and use it with unbalanced input/output because the (minidsp balanced) can drive the crown while the unbalanced one cannot (as I analyzed) not expert yet in all of this.

I think using the equalizer will help a little but I don't know why I am underwhelmed (similar to your feeling) (one ported 12 inch to two 18 inch sealed) and me (jump from one ported 10 inch to one sealed 18 inch). I know I should have got more power like 1500-2000 watts instead of the current 1100. a minidsp might ameliorate my feeling by possibly 25% which is good but as well at an additional cost. I mean my 400 USD subwoofer "almost" gave me same feeling then this new 700+ USD 18 inch driver box. I think I am happy with the new sub but I thought that if I got a smaller 12 inch ported, I might have had a better WAF and as well similar outcome with less trouble and less money.

I need to get a minidsp when I travel the US and see what comes out but just saying that you are not the only one with that underwhelmed feeling.

By the way, are things better now with your setup?

There have been lots of folks like you, myself included, whom where very underwhelmed by going from a cheapo big box subwoofer to a nice 18" sub. I think a large part of this is due to the Dayton and/or SI's have so little distortion that we are used to hearing as a "rumble" on our cheap subs.

Another problem is that you can't just plop an 18" driver in a sealed enclosure and not expect to be over-joyed with output. If you run sealed Dayton of SI, or what ever subs them you absolutely must give them power, preferably 1,500+ watts and also use a dsp devise to boost the low end! Without those two things, you won't be anywhere near where you could be!
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post #100 of 134 Old 12-29-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post

Hi Java,

I think I am at a similar stage (more or less) of where you were at the end of page one of this thread. I recently (and a lot of thanks to the forum members) built a Dayton RSS460 Box. I have room of around 30x11 (little more in fact as it is open to another room) but size is not what is important for "the situation" as much as expectations, I had in the same location (near sitting area) in the same room an energy ESW-V10 300 watts subwoofer which performed pretty well for its size. And I didn't "feel" that punch that you are expecting when I moved to the Dayton RSS460.

I am using a crown XLS1000 (I might have needed a larger amp) without equalizer, but I am sure my Pioneer SC-07 is driving the crown pretty well, I can easily hit the clip light by playing either with the sc-07 gain or/and the crown knob. The RSS460 is acceptably delivering taking the room size, power, sealed, etc. but something is missing from an 18 inch sub compared to a smaller vented 10 inch sub. I can feel presence with the sub and the punch is not far from the 10 inch one but there is this underwhelmed feeling. I did feel the 10 inch rumbling (moving air) at certain times in certain movies better then the 18 inch and the opposite is happening as well sometimes. since I am feeling "presence" it might mean that some frequencies need equalizing to reach the punch (or maybe more) then the 10 inch ported (that one had a frequency response that starts from 23 Hz as per advertised specs) so I might be missing the 20-40 Hz that need equalizing and other frequencies as well (dunno until I get something to measure). the 10 inch woofer was much more dynamic.

I am considering getting a minidsp but not sure if I should get the balanced one and use it with unbalanced input/output because the (minidsp balanced) can drive the crown while the unbalanced one cannot (as I analyzed) not expert yet in all of this.

I think using the equalizer will help a little but I don't know why I am underwhelmed (similar to your feeling) (one ported 12 inch to two 18 inch sealed) and me (jump from one ported 10 inch to one sealed 18 inch). I know I should have got more power like 1500-2000 watts instead of the current 1100. a minidsp might ameliorate my feeling by possibly 25% which is good but as well at an additional cost. I mean my 400 USD subwoofer "almost" gave me same feeling then this new 700+ USD 18 inch driver box. I think I am happy with the new sub but I thought that if I got a smaller 12 inch ported, I might have had a better WAF and as well similar outcome with less trouble and less money.

I need to get a minidsp when I travel the US and see what comes out but just saying that you are not the only one with that underwhelmed feeling.

By the way, are things better now with your setup?

Hey Goldorak,

Glad to hear I'm not the only one.

As update, I am taking the advice of many here (Nick, LTD, Cuzed, etc.) and finally doing treatments in my room. I have 6 bags of Roxul coming into my Lowes in a few days and will work on some super chunk traps, panels, etc.

I'm thinking what we are missing is really the mid bass punch from our smaller ported subs. I get plenty of rumble from 18" subs, but I am missing the chest thump. Looking at my below noob REW measurements, you can see a null in the 60-70 hz range. I suspect that this is caused by room modes versus a short coming of the subs. For example, when I first build my SEOS mains (and before adding my two 18" subs), I noticed (and guests noticed) a significant chest thump. After adding the subs, even when I dropped the crossover down a bit, while it improved it, the chest thump isn't near where it was before. Hence, the subs are causing a null.



As far as your amp, I'm using an iNuke 6000, so I'm putting ~3k watts to each sub. And I'm still not happy. I'm making it bottom out before I'm happy with the output.

On the DSP, I have one and also have a clean box to correct the gain, but it still doesn't solve the problem. I'm a noob with DSP, but I tried to boost the mid bass and just ended up bottoming out the drivers earlier.

Give me a week and I'll update with how the treatments work. Hopefully that will solve the problems.

I hate to say it, but I'm questioning my choice to go DIY on the subs. All of the constant tweaking and not being happy, I'm thinking I could have gone with a HSU sub and enjoyed it. I know that's blasphemy around here, but I can't quick thinking that. ...back to reality, I'll tame this beast...

Java
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post #101 of 134 Old 12-29-2013, 12:49 PM
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Hey Java,

Well, the questioning of the choice might be a little there, but I believe I had to do this DIY project. It is a hobby eventually but not cost effective as many think it is, DIY is not "necessarily" cost effective. there is eventually a learning curve that has its price. Like in my case, I need to buy a larger amp now and a DSP or at least an amp with a DSP built in.

In your case, you seem to be really going all the way. In my case, I believe I am in a better situation or at least my expectations are more met then yours (maybe) smile.gif

In your case, could it have been better that you have installed opposing subs in the same box, or try to put the subs at the sides of the listening area not in the front and next to each other. There should be some changes. and put them as near the sitting area as possible, that is what I have done. I already knew that putting them anywhere far from the sitting area will not be enough in the size of my room. just some "assumption" thoughts.

(Just for testing purposes try putting them back to back just to test the theory of room effect). will that have any effect, maybe the experts here have a better idea of what this formation might do.

I am puzzled why the DSP is not working with you much, there is something fishy regarding why they are not working, try to listen at medium levels and check whether the response is better, I have always felt that at high levels, when you are maxing out the speaker limits, as you said they have reached their max. so try to see if the frequency response is better when listening at medium levels. If it is the case, then your design/expectations will need a revisit. ( as well a beginner thoughts).
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post #102 of 134 Old 12-29-2013, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hey Java,

Well, the questioning of the choice might be a little there, but I believe I had to do this DIY project. It is a hobby eventually but not cost effective as many think it is, DIY is not "necessarily" cost effective. there is eventually a learning curve that has its price. Like in my case, I need to buy a larger amp now and a DSP or at least an amp with a DSP built in.

In your case, you seem to be really going all the way. In my case, I believe I am in a better situation or at least my expectations are more met then yours (maybe) smile.gif

In your case, could it have been better that you have installed opposing subs in the same box, or try to put the subs at the sides of the listening area not in the front and next to each other. There should be some changes. and put them as near the sitting area as possible, that is what I have done. I already knew that putting them anywhere far from the sitting area will not be enough in the size of my room. just some "assumption" thoughts.

(Just for testing purposes try putting them back to back just to test the theory of room effect). will that have any effect, maybe the experts here have a better idea of what this formation might do.

I am puzzled why the DSP is not working with you much, there is something fishy regarding why they are not working, try to listen at medium levels and check whether the response is better, I have always felt that at high levels, when you are maxing out the speaker limits, as you said they have reached their max. so try to see if the frequency response is better when listening at medium levels. If it is the case, then your design/expectations will need a revisit. ( as well a beginner thoughts).

I hear you. I'm just bitching. I've really enjoyed the DIY path. My entire 5.2 setup is DIY.

I do believe the bulk of my problem is room related. If Lowes comes through next week, I'll should be able to give it a shot while I'm off.

The DSP probably worked better than I hear. I did it trial/error with a sledgehammer. rolleyes.gif I didn't have time to dial it in with REW. I just made some quick changes and played it by ear. But, no EQ will solve a big null problem like I have. EQ is best to tame peaks versus raising nulls..
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post #103 of 134 Old 12-31-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Let the Treatments Begin...

My special order come into Lowes. Wow. I didn't realize how big 6 bales of these would be. It took me two trips to get it all home.




Hats off to Nick for his great find on Roxul at lowes: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1276960/working-mans-diy-dedicated-home-theater/394#post_22587770.

I have bounced back and forth over whether to use Roxul or OC. It all came down to cost and availability. At roughly $7 a sheet, this is by far the cheapest I could find. And I could just pop over (ok, twice) to Lowes to pick up.

Here's my room layout. Note that this is "end state" when I build my screen wall. Right now the screen is on the back wall.



The plan is:
  • Front Super Chunks. I am doing full floor-ceiling 34" cuts. See SuperChunk_Cuts.jpg 44k .jpg file for cuts.
  • Side Panels. I'll do 4 panels on each side of 6" (2x Roxul, no air space).
  • Rear Panels. I'll do 3-4 panels in the rear of ~10" (3x Roxul, 1" air space). I prefer to have no air space within the panels, so if I can find 1x9" boards, I'll space them 1-2"off the wall

As far as fabric, the plan was to use Muslin on the back and black cloth on the front, but I found a great deal from Joann's on broadcloath: http://www.joann.com/symphony-broadcloth-solid-quilt-fabric/prd10006.html?icn=newyearsale&ici=07. I think I'll just do a full wrap with this.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Java
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Super Chunk Plans

My first project will be to do the super chunks for the front. Again, the plan is to do floor to ceiling on both front sides using a 34" cut (24x24x34).

Given that I'm using Roxul and it's not as firm as OC, I'm going to need some support. Looking at a lot of different approaches, I think I will use Chas' from HTS.


Chas used simple braces like this for midpoint weight and also to anchor the front panel.



Here's his full stacked corner.



I also like Chas' approach to the front panels/grills.


My only issue is that I have pretty thick molding at the base. I don't want to cut it out, so I need to try to work around it.
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post #105 of 134 Old 12-31-2013, 11:48 AM
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Out of curiosity have you ever tried turning your sub around so the driver faces the wall? I did this with my dual RS15HO builds and am much happier with the sound.


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post #106 of 134 Old 12-31-2013, 12:09 PM
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If you've not opened those yet for super chunks it's best to use cheap pink fluffy, due to gas flow restively.
Look at DIY acoustics link in my sig for explain, I can't link to that from my iPhone easily .
Happy building big bass traps.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #107 of 134 Old 12-31-2013, 06:19 PM
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How does that stuff compare to the rigid OC703? I am in need of some more OC703 panels for my ceiling, front, and rear walls. I just hate having to order this stuff because its so expensive. My local Home Depot will only order me some if I purchase over $500 worth of it at once. OC703 is fairly expensive when utilizing two layers of 2" thick stacked on top of each other in 2' by 4' panels that are a total of 4" tick with a 4" air gap! Any suggestions for a cheaper alternative that offers similar performance to two layers of 2" OC703 for use in helping with both the speculation and model room interferences?
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post #108 of 134 Old 12-31-2013, 06:21 PM
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How does that stuff compare to the rigid OC703? I am in need of some more OC703 panels for my ceiling, front, and rear walls. I just hate having to order this stuff because its so expensive. My local Home Depot will only order me some if I purchase over $500 worth of it at once. OC703 is fairly expensive when utilizing two layers of 2" thick stacked on top of each other in 2' by 4' panels that are a total of 4" tick with a 4" air gap! Any suggestions for a cheaper alternative that offers similar performance to two layers of 2" OC703 for use in helping with both the speculation and model room interferences?

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm



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Thanks for that link Mr. Kazador! What is typically available at Home Depot or Lowes, in terms of the Roxul Ridgid Rockwool stuff? Is there something closer to the OC703 that is fairly easier to come by, perhaps something from HD or Lowes? I like all of those comparisons in that link, but I no idea where's to find this ridged Roxul stuff?
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http://www.roxul.com/residential/where+to+buy++roxul

 

Roxul Rockboard 60 is a good alternative to OC703. Looks like you can have Roxul Safe n Sound 3" shipped to your local lowes.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_305816-1278-RXSS31525_0__?productId=3394032



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post #111 of 134 Old 01-01-2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

http://www.roxul.com/residential/where+to+buy++roxul

Roxul Rockboard 60 is a good alternative to OC703. Looks like you can have Roxul Safe n Sound 3" shipped to your local lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_305816-1278-RXSS31525_0__?productId=3394032

Is the Roxul Rockwool 60 available at Lowes? How much could I expect to pay for it? How does that "Safe & Sound" stack up against OC703 for both spectral and model absorbing?
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Out of curiosity have you ever tried turning your sub around so the driver faces the wall? I did this with my dual RS15HO builds and am much happier with the sound.

Nope. I haven't tried that. What improvements did you see (measure?). Thanks
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

If you've not opened those yet for super chunks it's best to use cheap pink fluffy, due to gas flow restively.
Look at DIY acoustics link in my sig for explain, I can't link to that from my iPhone easily .
Happy building big bass traps.

Hey Mike,

I scanned your thread (very nice work, btw), but I couldn't find a compelling reason to switch from mineral wool to pink fluffy stuff. For the corner traps, my main goal is bass absorption versus broadband absorption. Given that, everything I've seen (and I've been all over AVS, Gear Slutz, etc.) says the denser the better for bass absorption. I understand there is a limit, but Roxul SnS is around 2.5 pcf, so I should be fine.

Thanks,

Java
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Is the Roxul Rockwool 60 available at Lowes? How much could I expect to pay for it? How does that "Safe & Sound" stack up against OC703 for both spectral and model absorbing?

From what I could find, they only have "standard insulation": http://www.lowes.com/Search=roxul?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=roxul#!

You can find it for shipping: http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Rockboard-60-Case-of-6--RB60.html

I really can't speak to the spectral and model absorption. I barely understand the concept. wink.gif

On spectral, you are talking about reflections, right? And broadband? Given that Roxul SnS is slightly less dense than 703 (2.5 vs 3.0 pcf), I would think it would be slightly better at the broadband.

As far as modal, are you talking about the bass null/peaks from room modes? Again, following the density, 703 would be slightly better in the bass absorption.

But, my decision on Roxul was cost and convenience. 703 is the better material and I was set on getting it. It may be a southern thing (I live outside Atlanta), but it is very hard to find 703 locally. I was about to call GIK (they are in ATL) and drive in and get 703 from them, but it was just before the holidays and it was easier to hit the order button on the Lowes site.
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From what I could find, they only have "standard insulation": http://www.lowes.com/Search=roxul?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=roxul#!

You can find it for shipping: http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Rockboard-60-Case-of-6--RB60.html

I really can't speak to the spectral and model absorption. I barely understand the concept. wink.gif

On spectral, you are talking about reflections, right? And broadband? Given that Roxul SnS is slightly less dense than 703 (2.5 vs 3.0 pcf), I would think it would be slightly better at the broadband.

As far as modal, are you talking about the bass null/peaks from room modes? Again, following the density, 703 would be slightly better in the bass absorption.

But, my decision on Roxul was cost and convenience. 703 is the better material and I was set on getting it. It may be a southern thing (I live outside Atlanta), but it is very hard to find 703 locally. I was about to call GIK (they are in ATL) and drive in and get 703 from them, but it was just before the holidays and it was easier to hit the order button on the Lowes site.

By Spectral I mean the high frequencies, and Model are the low frequencies. I am also having a hell of a time finding OC703 for a decent price. Home Depot wants a minimum order of over $500 before they will let me order through them. It would cost over a grand to do my room the way that I was originally planning with OC703! I just can't afford that.

I am definitely interested in using the Safe n Sound for my absorbing panels, but only if they do a good job for high frequency reflections and a sufficient job at absorbing low frequencies to help with tightening up the rooms bass response by decreasing decay time and getting rid of nasty peaks and nulls. I do plan to use some bass traps in the corners that are made by stacking triangular pink fluffy insulation.

I just wonder how much performance I would be loosing out on by going with Safe n Sound over OC703?
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

By Spectral I mean the high frequencies, and Model are the low frequencies. I am also having a hell of a time finding OC703 for a decent price. Home Depot wants a minimum order of over $500 before they will let me order through them. It would cost over a grand to do my room the way that I was originally planning with OC703! I just can't afford that.

I am definitely interested in using the Safe n Sound for my absorbing panels, but only if they do a good job for high frequency reflections and a sufficient job at absorbing low frequencies to help with tightening up the rooms bass response by decreasing decay time and getting rid of nasty peaks and nulls. I do plan to use some bass traps in the corners that are made by stacking triangular pink fluffy insulation.

I just wonder how much performance I would be loosing out on by going with Safe n Sound over OC703?

From what I've read, the performance is very similar. I pulled the relevant spec's below from Bob Gold's analysis. Remember that you are probably looking at a 2" 703 (most common) vs 3" of SnS (what's at Lowes). Technically the 3" SnS beats a 2" 703 across all frequencies. To be fair, I also looked at the 3" 703 against the 3" SnS. The are fairly similar except at 250 hz.


Roxul Safe n Sound vs OC 703 (Bob Gold)



Graph of same




Now, keep in mind that since SnS is so cheap, you can cost effectively double/triple it up vs 703. In my case, I'm going to do 6" on the sides and 9" on the back. Those depths will definitely be better across the board than a 2-4" 703 panel.
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Originally Posted by Java View Post

From what I've read, the performance is very similar. I pulled the relevant spec's below from Bob Gold's analysis. Remember that you are probably looking at a 2" 703 (most common) vs 3" of SnS (what's at Lowes). Technically the 3" SnS beats a 2" 703 across all frequencies. To be fair, I also looked at the 3" 703 against the 3" SnS. The are fairly similar except at 250 hz.


Roxul Safe n Sound vs OC 703 (Bob Gold)



Graph of same




Now, keep in mind that since SnS is so cheap, you can cost effectively double/triple it up vs 703. In my case, I'm going to do 6" on the sides and 9" on the back. Those depths will definitely be better across the board than a 2-4" 703 panel.

Wow, in that case, I may do 6" of Safe n Sound with a 4" air gap on each panel!
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post #118 of 134 Old 01-02-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

If you've not opened those yet for super chunks it's best to use cheap pink fluffy, due to gas flow restively.
Look at DIY acoustics link in my sig for explain, I can't link to that from my iPhone easily .
Happy building big bass traps.

Hey Mike,

I scanned your thread (very nice work, btw), but I couldn't find a compelling reason to switch from mineral wool to pink fluffy stuff. For the corner traps, my main goal is bass absorption versus broadband absorption. Given that, everything I've seen (and I've been all over AVS, Gear Slutz, etc.) says the denser the better for bass absorption. I understand there is a limit, but Roxul SnS is around 2.5 pcf, so I should be fine.

Thanks,

Java


After reading so many of these threads I need to do a better job of book marking them.
My rear lower corner super chunks were made from too dense material, OC705, for the depth used.
When I did them in 2011 I did not know better.

I will re-do those traps by removing the OC705 and simply replacing with Pink fluffy, it's down on my bucket list for now but on there.

Your Roxul SnS will work fine, just sharing what I've learned since then.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9610921-post12.html
Quote:
Here are two pics I found of the last rear wall trap we did. For this wall trap I tested various depths from 6" to 24". We tested pink fluffy, safe n sound, rigid oc703 and oc705, and rockboard 60.

What the tests revealed here was that the deeper the trap the better the performance with pink fluffy. Every other material reached a limit to where adding depth didn't make it any more absorbent. I stick with the idea that the rigid materials, oc705 and even oc703 along with the rockboard 60 are no more effective after 8". Safe n sound stopped adding gains at around 10-12". And fluffy kept adding gains, but they were getting smaller each time the depth was increased.

For this wall we ended up going with 24" pink fluffy.

The pics were from testing the safe n sound and rock board 60 measurements.

I'm going to find the before and after tests at the different depths for each material.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/255432/acoustical-treatments-master-thread/9180#post_22556746

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post #119 of 134 Old 01-03-2014, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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See, I'm not crazy

Ok, maybe I still am, but this proves what I've been hearing.

After many "oh crap, I forgot..." runs to HD and "honey do" projects, I am ready to do my treatments. With only two days left of my break, I'm determined to finish the treatment... rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I wanted to grab some REW measurements as the "pre" measurments before I crank on the treatments.

Per my earlier posts, I only did the REW measures with the subs, only. I haven't run them through the AVR, yet.

Below is my first try at an AVR measurement. As note, I'm using Dayton EMM-6 mic (with calibration file) and a TASCAM US-122MK11 usb sound card to my Macbook Air. I used the HDMI out of the Mac to my AVR (Onkyo TX-NR818).

I'm a noob at REW, so I may have screwed something up, with the HDMI route. I was able to drive 5.1 (technically 5.2) to the AVR. I had audyssey off and checked to make sure the subs we active (they were).




As I stated earlier, I'm sure I'm screwing up something in the gain structure. It seems it either too much (bottoming out) or not at all.

I'm going to move on to building the treatments. If I keep messing around with REW, I'll lose the weekend and likely my best chance to get the treatment done before I get back to the grind.
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post #120 of 134 Old 01-03-2014, 04:44 PM
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It's a slippery slope, using REW and fact based info to guide you.
Did you read the REW thread in the audio forum?
It's got great steps to guide you.

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