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post #271 of 591 Old 08-25-2013, 02:58 PM
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First, thank you LilMike for this project and all your others. The simplicity of this design inspired me to start on a pair of these as my first DIY speakers!

I recently sprained ankle my ankle so I can't stand for extended periods without irritating it, but I'm pleased with the progress I made this weekend. There was a lot of learning involved while putting this one together. The next one should go together much more quickly.

The total cost for two LilWreckers with Alpine SWS-15D4s, a MiniDSP, and a NU3000 with cable adapters ends up at $1,100. I was budgeting around $1,000 for my future HT's subs and didn't expect to get bass this deep. So thanks again LilMike.


Of course that aluminum beam wasn't straight. A 48" woodworking T square made things 100x easier.


I used a brad nailer to hold it together while the PL sets.

The plan is to finish the rest tomorrow and try it out on Tuesday.
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post #272 of 591 Old 08-25-2013, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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That looks like great progress!

Be sure to get the bracing installed before you button it up.
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post #273 of 591 Old 08-26-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valar View Post

First, thank you LilMike for this project and all your others. The simplicity of this design inspired me to start on a pair of these as my first DIY speakers!

The plan is to finish the rest tomorrow and try it out on Tuesday.

Welcome to bass bliss!!
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post #274 of 591 Old 09-12-2013, 10:00 AM
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Can these be behind a 30" deep false wall? Or do you have to bring them out from the wall quite a bit?
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post #275 of 591 Old 09-12-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuelrush View Post

Can these be behind a 30" deep false wall? Or do you have to bring them out from the wall quite a bit?

These would work great back there, they do not need to be corner loaded.
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post #276 of 591 Old 09-13-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Take a look at the pictures in post #9.

Basically, these were designed to go behind a false wall, and at 28.5" deep, they should fit just fine into the space you have.
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post #277 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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Giving my LilWrecker a workout lately with "We're not Royals."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-6TGjIZxek
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post #278 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilort View Post

Giving my LilWrecker a workout lately with "We're not Royals."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-6TGjIZxek
nice Vid to get a sub reference work-out smile.gif

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #279 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Better late than never, but some assembly instructions have been added to the first post. Please let me know if I missed anything.
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post #280 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 06:49 PM
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Great! I was getting ready to ask some basic questions on assembly!

I have a couple more still, is the 3/4" plywood, 3/4" plywood sheathing? My local stores carry several 3/4" (or fractionally close to 3/4" ply. like 23/32") in several different types (maple -$40, fir 5ply -$41, birch -$47, etc). (I know i'm not looking for the ones that look like chipped wood OSB). Better yet a lowes/HD link would be great. I guess the 3/4" maple would be the most solid. Cheapest I found was sheathing at $25.

Do I need to have something very solid to set these on? I need to raise these off the floor 12" but I won't have a sand filled stage because I'm on a second floor.

Thanks for the help. I can't wait to get started!
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post #281 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelrush View Post

Great! I was getting ready to ask some basic questions on assembly!

I have a couple more still, is the 3/4" plywood, 3/4" plywood sheathing? My local stores carry several 3/4" (or fractionally close to 3/4" ply. like 23/32") in several different types (maple -$40, fir 5ply -$41, birch -$47, etc). (I know i'm not looking for the ones that look like chipped wood OSB). Better yet a lowes/HD link would be great. I guess the 3/4" maple would be the most solid. Cheapest I found was sheathing at $25.

Do I need to have something very solid to set these on? I need to raise these off the floor 12" but I won't have a sand filled stage because I'm on a second floor.

Thanks for the help. I can't wait to get started!

3/4" plywood with the most layers you can get. This Arauco plywood at Home Depot is the value king at $33.57 a sheet. DIYers have used it for years, and is what I used for mine.
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post #282 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Valar View Post

3/4" plywood with the most layers you can get. This Arauco plywood at Home Depot is the value king at $33.57 a sheet. DIYers have used it for years, and is what I used for mine.

I used Arauco for mine too but I sure as $h!t couldn't find it at HD.
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post #283 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilort View Post

I used Arauco for mine too but I sure as $h!t couldn't find it at HD.

nope me either got a lumber yard near me going to give them a call Monday for birch ply hopefully they deliver
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post #284 of 591 Old 09-14-2013, 09:26 PM
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what about RE subs in the lilwecker? xxx, xx, sxx, or any of there new pro subwoofers?

http://reaudio.com/products/woofers.php

http://www.dcsoundlab.com/subsamps.html

https://www.skaraudio.com/products/subwoofers.html
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post #285 of 591 Old 09-15-2013, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie2075 View Post

what about RE subs in the lilwecker? xxx, xx, sxx, or any of there new pro subwoofers?

http://reaudio.com/products/woofers.php

http://www.dcsoundlab.com/subsamps.html

https://www.skaraudio.com/products/subwoofers.html

RE has a few that look like they might work at a glance. Issue is, like so many other vendors out there, their driver specs are incomplete, making Hornresp calculations more of a challenge.
I have contacted them a while back in an effort to get more details, I never heard back.

I've also looked at DC and SKAR, most these drivers have far too high of a Qes to work well in a multi-resonant enclosure, and those that don't have an Fs that is a bit high for the LilWrecker.

In cases like this, without a set of accurately measured driver specs, it is all a shot in the dark. Tapped horn enclosures are complicated enough that things go very wrong very quickly if the driver is not well-matched to the cabinet.
I'd rather not guess with other people's money, and since my wallet is a bit thin right now, I can't afford to be guessing with my own.
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post #286 of 591 Old 09-15-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

RE has a few that look like they might work at a glance. Issue is, like so many other vendors out there, their driver specs are incomplete, making Hornresp calculations more of a challenge.
I have contacted them a while back in an effort to get more details, I never heard back.

I've also looked at DC and SKAR, most these drivers have far too high of a Qes to work well in a multi-resonant enclosure, and those that don't have an Fs that is a bit high for the LilWrecker.

In cases like this, without a set of accurately measured driver specs, it is all a shot in the dark. Tapped horn enclosures are complicated enough that things go very wrong very quickly if the driver is not well-matched to the cabinet.
I'd rather not guess with other people's money, and since my wallet is a bit thin right now, I can't afford to be guessing with my own.
Gotchya mike thanks for clearing that up. If i go thru with the lil wrecker im thinking of going with the si drivers or maybe the lms-r 15
Also mike just thought of it i have elemental designs av13 or something like that i have 2 of them already would they work in the lil wrecker?
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post #287 of 591 Old 09-15-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelrush View Post

Great! I was getting ready to ask some basic questions on assembly!

I have a couple more still, is the 3/4" plywood, 3/4" plywood sheathing? My local stores carry several 3/4" (or fractionally close to 3/4" ply. like 23/32") in several different types (maple -$40, fir 5ply -$41, birch -$47, etc). (I know i'm not looking for the ones that look like chipped wood OSB). Better yet a lowes/HD link would be great. I guess the 3/4" maple would be the most solid. Cheapest I found was sheathing at $25.

Do I need to have something very solid to set these on? I need to raise these off the floor 12" but I won't have a sand filled stage because I'm on a second floor.

Thanks for the help. I can't wait to get started!

3/4" nominal works fine. Get as close as you can. Like others have said - more plies is typically better. Thicker face veneers are good too. Arauco is a great material. Honestly - you'd be better with a quality 3/4" OSB than the cheap plywood. Splinters suck, and you'll get them with cheap ply. Voids suck too, and there will be plenty in cheap ply. OSB works well, it is functionally void-free, it is plenty stiff, and the sheets will be flat, but finishing things presentably can be a challenge. I occasionally do prototypes in OSB and I have built several subs with OSB.

The wood is NOT the place I would choose to save money on this project. If I went and bought ply today, I can get a decently good ply for $36 a sheet, which is $11 more than the cheap stuff you found. That's less than $50 a cabinet. I really like working with nice plywood. Flat, void-free, and smooth just makes the rest of the project that much easier. Like others here, I have built with Arauco and had good results. I used to be able to get it at Home Depot for $26 a sheet, but I've not seen it for a while. I can still get it locally, but the price is closer to $50 a sheet, so it's not exactly a value. I've used European "shop birch", which worked OK, but has more flaws and voids than I'd like, and the face veneer was paper-thin. Still, at $33 a sheet, it wasn't bad, far better than the Chinese multi-ply birch I tried. That stuff was barely even glued together, and I am not sure what was laminated in there, but it wasn't all wood. I've used domestic crossband ply (ACX) which worked fine, but Arauco is better and it typically costs less. I recently did a project with some domestically-produced poplar crossband ply (Columbia Forest Products PureBond) that I found at my local Home Depot for $36 a sheet. It was nice to work with, and the price was right, I'd definitely use more of that if I could find it when I needed plywood. I've worked with a true European cabinet-grade birch, and like everything else, you do get what you pay for. Last time I checked, I could get 1/2" 5'X5" for about $30, 3/4 is closer to $50. Problem is - the LilWrecker is 70" tall, so it is a bit hard to cut the sides out of a 60" sheet.

Not really sure about stands. At better than 200 lb each, whatever you park them on should be sturdy. I'd make a box-type stand myself, a bit smaller than the cabinet. No need for the bottom, just 4 sides with a couple webs and a top panel to hold things square. Add some rubber feet on the top and bottom of the stand to hold things in place and you should be fine. Should use less than a sheet of plywood in each stand.
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post #288 of 591 Old 09-15-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie2075 View Post

Gotchya mike thanks for clearing that up. If i go thru with the lil wrecker im thinking of going with the si drivers or maybe the lms-r 15
Also mike just thought of it i have elemental designs av13 or something like that i have 2 of them already would they work in the lil wrecker?

Well, as I don't have "real" specs for the AV13, I can't say. At 13", they are too small for the LilWrecker as designed, but widths can be adjusted to a degree.

The LMS-R works very well in the LilWrecker, but I need to check and see if it will physically fit in the horn. (edit - it fits with room to spare)

For the same money, you could buy another SI HT15 and another 4 sheets of ply and make another cabinet.
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post #289 of 591 Old 09-16-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quality plywood varies by the geographical area , Mike is right look for void free & the more layers the better . Stay away from any Chinese Birch at all costs . eek.gif
Stay away from Home Depot & Lowes if you can , If I buy from Lowes I always look at the labels on the full stacks as they usually say where &/Or who the MFGers is , Look up above the racks to the un-opened bundles of ply @ HD,Lowes you'll see the shipping labels .
To tell if your plywood has voids is look at the whole stack of plywood
on the stack of ply check really close the edges & do this on all sides @ the stacked edges if you see even one or 2 layers that have spaces that there is no wood in a layer ,that void can range between 2 inches down to 1/2 inch then assume the whole stack has voids in most all the sheets
Voids cause resonating in the panels & that IS BAD for speakers & even worse Really Bad for subwoofers , That's why most feel baltic birch @ 9 to 11 plys 3/4" ( Fine Cabinet grade ) is the best for DIY speaker projects .
I did some Oak 3/4" & it had voids some right under the veneer that caved in ( made a ugly divot in my finished surface )
Yeah some will say they did with 5 ply 3/4 " And a few voids never hurt anyone , but if you putting all this work into your sub then do you really want to cut corners ? I M O
I think I gonna do one these they look cool ! biggrin.gif

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #290 of 591 Old 11-06-2013, 01:17 PM
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Phew, just read the whole thread. I've built a couple of F-20's and am thinking about building one of these for a friend. There will only be one cab in a large room so I'm looking for a driver amp combo that would give max SPL. I'll also need a HP and LP filter in the amp. Is there anything better than the Inuke 3000 and Kicker CVX combo?

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post #291 of 591 Old 11-06-2013, 01:25 PM
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Bang for the buck is fine but I'm more interested in max SPL and SQ, thanks.

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post #292 of 591 Old 11-06-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm, for the LilWrecker? I'm not sure I'd recommend the iNuke DSP, and unless you have one already, I definitely wouldn't recommend the CVX at the current price.

For this cabinet?? Alpine's SWS 15 is easily the best value driver available now. The Stereo Integrity HT15 also works fine. If you want to spend more, there are a few more options listed in the first post.

As far as amps go? The only thing I don't like about the iNuke DSP is the lack of any EQ/Highpass below 20 Hz. Sure, the DSP can be "fooled" into going lower with some clever combinations of negative cuts and such, but a properly used Balanced MiniDSP might be a better choice. The iNuke is a fine amp, and is reasonably quiet after a fan-mod. I use mine in the HT system, and I use the DSP, accepting that I am leaving Hz or two and a few dB on the table, but my sub needs a 19 Hz highpass, not a 14 to 15 Hz one. I would run a non-DSP amp with a proper separate DSP personally, because I'm not aware of ANY pro amps with integrated DSP that extends below 20 Hz.

No point building a sub that needs a 15 Hz highpass and then chopping off a half octave of that extension by highpassing it at 20, cause that's what the amp's limit is.
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post #293 of 591 Old 11-06-2013, 02:53 PM
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Thanks Mike. For more SPL, which would be the better driver over the SWS 15?

Why do you say you're leaving a few Hz and a little SPL on the table?

Any particular DSP you'd recommend over the minidsp (if that's the reason for question 2)?


In this application, I HAVE to be good to at least to 16Hz.

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post #294 of 591 Old 11-06-2013, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

Thanks Mike. For more SPL, which would be the better driver over the SWS 15?

Why do you say you're leaving a few Hz and a little SPL on the table?

Any particular DSP you'd recommend over the minidsp (if that's the reason for question 2)?


In this application, I HAVE to be good to at least to 16Hz.

Since the cabinet is unchanged, more SPL means more power handling, which means a bigger coil and more throw. Right out of the gate, the SWS starts with nearly as much linear throw as the CVX, and has more than ample mechanical clearances too, though not quite equal to the CVX. The next step up would be the Stereo Integrity 15, they have a lot of throw, and plenty of mechanical clearance, but they're limited on the power they'll take, which is why I suggest the SWS to start with, cause they both end up making about the same amount of noise. Both of these drivers are a great fit with a 600 watt/channel amp, which is generally the second tier model in most pro amp lines.

If you need more? You get what you pay for - but you're stepping up to the $300/driver range. You're also heading into uncharted territory, as most folks are building with the SWS and SI drivers now, I'm not aware of anyone using the Fi Q or Sundown, and I'm concerned that the larger drivers may not even fit into the horn's mouth. I have not tested either, and have no direct experience with either.

I'm running a MicroWrecker currently, it is the littler brother to the LilWrecker. It is -3 dB at 18 Hz if I recall. Due to the limitations of the integrated DSP in my iNuke 3000DSP, I am highpassing at 20 Hz. That means that 18 Hz is now down more like 7 or 8 dB versus 3 dB, because my highpass is -3 dB at 20. The 20 Hz limit on the highpass (without the added filters trick that I can't seem to get to work) has cost me several dBs and several Hz of extension at the low corner.

My current situation is very temporary, so this is fine for me for now. For me, it really isn't worth fussing over at the moment. Sure, I could plug in my MiniDSP and set it up to get a proper highpass, and I could use my MatchBox II to get my signal levels where they need to be, but that stuff is all packed away in boxes somewhere. That will all happen when I set up the new theater. If things go to plan, I'll probably conjure up some more proper subs and speakers too. For now, what I have works well enough. Yeah, there are a lot of things I would like to change, but until the new house is finished, this is what I have to work with, and my money is all prioritized elsewhere.

I really like the MiniDSP. Not much can do what it does for the cost. Sure, it has its limits. Know, understand, and respect those limits and things should be fine.

According to the measurements I have, the LilWrecker is -3 dB at about 14 to 15 Hz, so if you can't get 16 Hz, it's not the sub's fault.
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Thank you for taking the time to write that detailed explanation.

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post #296 of 591 Old 11-07-2013, 06:49 AM
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Thank you for taking the time to write that detailed explanation.


lol.. just had to say, love your sig - "120@20@14'"


oh, and lilmike... your threads are so informative - thanks for your efforts.. I plan to build one (not sure which one yet).. someday, hopefully sooner than later wink.gif

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lol.. just had to say, love your sig - "120@20@14'"

Yep, that's my IB.

Mike, I think I'll go with a dual 2 Ohm Alpine type S wired for 4 Ohms with a Dayton Audio SA1000 unless you see an issue with that combination.

Carl

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post #298 of 591 Old 11-07-2013, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, that's my IB.

Mike, I think I'll go with a dual 2 Ohm Alpine type S wired for 4 Ohms with a Dayton Audio SA1000 unless you see an issue with that combination.

Carl

At $375 for that amp? I'll pass, thanks.

I know it has been "redesigned" but the previous version did not measure up to claims at all, and if you do a little searching, there are plenty of discussions out there regarding these.

IMO, there are far better amp choices in that price range. Yes, they come with fans, and in some cases stupid-looking LEDs. Some also come with bulletproof warranties, and most have honest power output.

If I was shopping today and looking to drive a pair of Alpine-loaded LilWreckers, I'd personally grab a Crown XLS1500 . If only planning a single sub? The XLS1000 should be plenty.
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Didn't know they had issues. I thought that by buying that amp I wouldn't need a minidsp and could save the expense.

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post #300 of 591 Old 11-07-2013, 09:36 AM
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The XLS1000 is rated 20 to 20K. They'll go below 20Hz?

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