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Old 02-08-2014, 10:38 PM
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Just ran through a few of my favorite bass demo screnes with my dad who was visiting for the day. I ran the lilwrecker hard and boy did it deliver! Flight of the Phoenix was downright massive. Both of us were grinning like little kids! Lots and lots of clean bass...all from a $120 driver!

Awesome design lilmike. Thank you so much for your contributions to the diy community. You designs are simply amazing.

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Old 02-09-2014, 02:49 PM
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I have finished gluing the thread inserts into the  baffle so I am getting ready to glue the first two pieces you suggest in step five-assembly.  I was wondering if these aligning drill holes are all the screws you recommend or more screws along the length of the board being installed?  Also, I though that I would be gluing/screw a couple of boards and then need to wait for them to dry clamped however in your instructions you mention when you start the assembly to have a couple hours on your hands and at least two tubes of glue.  Once I start will I be able to glue/screw the whole thing in one sitting?

 

thanks!

 

 

 

Joe

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Old 02-09-2014, 05:16 PM
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There is no right way. I prefer to do it all at one time. Run a heavy bead of PL align the panel and throw some screws every 6-8 inches along the path and around the edges.

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Old 02-09-2014, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjbrim View Post

I have finished gluing the thread inserts into the  baffle so I am getting ready to glue the first two pieces you suggest in step five-assembly.  I was wondering if these aligning drill holes are all the screws you recommend or more screws along the length of the board being installed?  

Hmmm - thought I said to space screws evenly along the panels. Guess I typed up the instructions too fast. Space the screws no more than 8" apart, and use no less than three screws per panel.
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Originally Posted by jjjbrim View Post

Also, I though that I would be gluing/screw a couple of boards and then need to wait for them to dry clamped however in your instructions you mention when you start the assembly to have a couple hours on your hands and at least two tubes of glue.  

I prefer to build the entire cabinet in a day, but that's not always possible. It can be done, that couple hours comment was pretty optimistic though. If you can't do it all in a day, no worries. Slow and steady will get you there too. In between panels, you can plug the tip of the tube of PL with a nail, then wrap it with electrical tape, it will last several months sealed like that.
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Originally Posted by jjjbrim View Post

Once I start will I be able to glue/screw the whole thing in one sitting?

thanks!



Joe

I have done a build this size in a day. I can do a T-6 in a couple hours. The layout is what takes me the longest. Good luck!
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:48 AM
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Mike, once I got going it became much clearer and probably should have started as to not ask too many questions.  I just don't want to mess anything up and thought it would be too flimsy with just dry wall screws holding that kind of length however the board that "T's" into the first makes it more than sturdy.  The instructions are clear enough Mike, they just have to be read and the rest is common sense.  For example I cut the hole for the speaker out of the baffle and measured backwards, (had the short side towards the front of the speaker when the directions clearly stated to measure from the rear.

 

The bracing has been a little more challenging, once you get the first couple braces in you then have the channel boards in the way as you finish the build so there is not much room to screw them in.  All in all it has been very good and the instructions are great.  Great and fun project.

 

thanks,,

 

 

Joe 

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Old 02-14-2014, 09:51 PM
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Please forgive me if this has been covered. Of The tested drivers in this design, which driver can handle the most abuse? Thanks!
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

Please forgive me if this has been covered. Of The tested drivers in this design, which driver can handle the most abuse? Thanks!

I'm not aware of anyone hurting a driver in the LilWrecker in normal use. I've experienced the CVX-loaded HouseWreckers and LilWreckers at full tilt, and the house was complaining more than the drivers.

I know that someone baked a coil in an Alpine Type S (but only had one of the two connected), and I know that DaveCE shook apart his first two MicroWrecker cabinets when gigging with them, but thus far, no one seems to be complaining about their drivers failing.

With drivers, like everything else, you do get what you pay for. More money means more power handling and more excursion capability (if you shop properly).

What are you worried about specifically, excursion, power handling, or cone failure?

Excursion and power handling are sort of related, and with a DSP-based highpass in place, the drivers I recommend for the LilWrecker are power limited. Car-audio drivers are generally designed to be beaten on mercilessly, so the mechanical limits are well past the linear range of throw. I've pounded on the CVX that I use in my Micro (clip lights on an iNuke 3000, excursion over 2" p-p), I've never bottomed it or heard it complain (but I have a highpass in place to protect me from that). The original subjects of this thread get beaten on regularly, they just do their thing without complaints. DaveCE has beaten on his Alpines plenty while gigging with them, he seems happy with the durability.

Cone failure? Well, the CVX cone isn't quite bulletproof, but it is plenty sturdy. I've run them at 4:1 compression with a kilowatt and that didn't leave a mark on the cone (it didn't sound all that good, but that's why that cabinet was recycled, not shared). No direct experience with the Alpine or SI.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:06 PM
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I can make mine put out the stinky stinky coil smell under full output for a few hours. But I'm crazy. ;-)

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Old 02-17-2014, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I'm not aware of anyone hurting a driver in the LilWrecker in normal use. I've experienced the CVX-loaded HouseWreckers and LilWreckers at full tilt, and the house was complaining more than the drivers.

I know that someone baked a coil in an Alpine Type S (but only had one of the two connected), and I know that DaveCE shook apart his first two MicroWrecker cabinets when gigging with them, but thus far, no one seems to be complaining about their drivers failing.

With drivers, like everything else, you do get what you pay for. More money means more power handling and more excursion capability (if you shop properly).

What are you worried about specifically, excursion, power handling, or cone failure?

Excursion and power handling are sort of related, and with a DSP-based highpass in place, the drivers I recommend for the LilWrecker are power limited. Car-audio drivers are generally designed to be beaten on mercilessly, so the mechanical limits are well past the linear range of throw. I've pounded on the CVX that I use in my Micro (clip lights on an iNuke 3000, excursion over 2" p-p), I've never bottomed it or heard it complain (but I have a highpass in place to protect me from that). The original subjects of this thread get beaten on regularly, they just do their thing without complaints. DaveCE has beaten on his Alpines plenty while gigging with them, he seems happy with the durability.

Cone failure? Well, the CVX cone isn't quite bulletproof, but it is plenty sturdy. I've run them at 4:1 compression with a kilowatt and that didn't leave a mark on the cone (it didn't sound all that good, but that's why that cabinet was recycled, not shared). No direct experience with the Alpine or SI.
that basically answers my question. I am trying to get by with two of these in my room design plans, so wanted to make sure that if I push them to their limits that I would have drivers in place that can handle being pushed hard.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

that basically answers my question. I am trying to get by with two of these in my room design plans, so wanted to make sure that if I push them to their limits that I would have drivers in place that can handle being pushed hard.

With a proper highpass in place, you should be fine up to the RMS wattage limits of any of the recommended drivers.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:43 AM
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I see that this system is tuned to 17Hz.
I can see hitting that frequency with a sine generator, but are there actually movie soundtracks or music that go that low (other than something like DJ Magic Mike)?
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:50 AM
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So I have completed the Subwoofer (still have to attach the speaker, will do that this weekend).  I will discuss one area where I was a bonehead and how I fixed it and then ask a couple questions.

 

*Bonehead and fix.  When I got all of the panels glued in I set the last side panel (the one that we drill through as a template in the beginning and set aside) on top in position and then took a small drill bit and checked to make sure the screws would hit the panels underneath.  They did on all boards except the one directly above the baffle.  Somehow I had measured that point as 2 3/8 as opposed to 2 11/16th.  So in my embarrassment I privately emailed Mike and asked if this was going to matter and hoped it would be a minor issue.  Well we know this unit require fairly precise cuts and Mike came back and said it is not a good place to make the mistake and recommended I do what I needed to do to make it correct.  I honestly did the measure twice and cut once plan, but I had a poor scheme to start screwing and gluing initially.  I wont go into detail but I found the correct template hole after I fixed it, I just did not use it.  Anyways, the best and cheapest fix was to purchase a multi tool from Harbor Freight (it was $20 plus a blade).  It allowed me to cut fairly  flat across the panel on the two sides that had been glued.  Once cut loose I could then pull the board down to the correct location and glue/screw in.  I only share this so if anyone else figures out mid-build they made a mistake all is not lost.  And Mike was great, got back to me....felt bad he had to go recalculate this because of this but he was a champ.

 

Now my rookie questions on the setup.  I have purchased the SpeakOn connectors and have the  RCA to XLR male cable coming.  The wiring from the receive to the amp, amp to the LilWrecker is straightforward and you folks have let me know how to do that.  Mike sent me a diagram on how to wire up to the speaker as well.  I dont see instructions on how to set the filter on the Inuke 3000DSP literature.  Can someone please either walk me through what I need to do in my receiver (onkyo 805) on the subwoofer out if anything is different there for crossover and then what to set things at (and how to do it) in the 3000DSP?  No knowledge of using an external amp or setting up filters.

 

Thanks, for all of the help.

 

 

 

Joe

 

 

Joe

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Old 02-18-2014, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post

I see that this system is tuned to 17Hz.
I can see hitting that frequency with a sine generator, but are there actually movie soundtracks or music that go that low (other than something like DJ Magic Mike)?

There are plenty of movie soundtracks with significant content below 20 Hz, a number extend into the single digits. That's been discussed in a number of other threads.

Music? There's not as much, but still some. Most mainstream music has next to nothing below 30 Hz though.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:04 AM
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Very cool.
I remember when I first saw Hellboy on my home system I was shocked at how low the bass was on certain spots.
I need more bass!
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:Originally Posted by jjjbrim 

So I have completed the Subwoofer (still have to attach the speaker, will do that this weekend).  I will discuss one area where I was a bonehead and how I fixed it and then ask a couple questions.

*Bonehead and fix.  When I got all of the panels glued in I set the last side panel (the one that we drill through as a template in the beginning and set aside) on top in position and then took a small drill bit and checked to make sure the screws would hit the panels underneath.  They did on all boards except the one directly above the baffle.  Somehow I had measured that point as 2 3/8 as opposed to 2 11/16th.  So in my embarrassment I privately emailed Mike and asked if this was going to matter and hoped it would be a minor issue.  Well we know this unit require fairly precise cuts and Mike came back and said it is not a good place to make the mistake and recommended I do what I needed to do to make it correct.  I honestly did the measure twice and cut once plan, but I had a poor scheme to start screwing and gluing initially.  I wont go into detail but I found the correct template hole after I fixed it, I just did not use it.  Anyways, the best and cheapest fix was to purchase a multi tool from Harbor Freight (it was $20 plus a blade).  It allowed me to cut fairly  flat across the panel on the two sides that had been glued.  Once cut loose I could then pull the board down to the correct location and glue/screw in.  I only share this so if anyone else figures out mid-build they made a mistake all is not lost.  And Mike was great, got back to me....felt bad he had to go recalculate this because of this but he was a champ.



Excellent idea on using the multi-tool. I will file that one away for when I make my next mistake. The recip saw is not "subtle" but it will take things right apart.
Quote:Originally Posted by jjjbrim 

Now my rookie questions on the setup.  I have purchased the SpeakOn connectors and have the  RCA to XLR male cable coming.  The wiring from the receive to the amp, amp to the LilWrecker is straightforward and you folks have let me know how to do that.  Mike sent me a diagram on how to wire up to the speaker as well.  I dont see instructions on how to set the filter on the Inuke 3000DSP literature.  Can someone please either walk me through what I need to do in my receiver (onkyo 805) on the subwoofer out if anything is different there for crossover and then what to set things at (and how to do it) in the 3000DSP?  No knowledge of using an external amp or setting up filters.

Thanks, for all of the help.



Joe



As far as setting up the 805? No idea, haven't worked with an Onkyo in quite a while.

Setting DSP filters is pretty easy, download the iNuke software and just play with it. I typically use parametric EQs, the Q factor sets the width, the center frequency is where the cut (or boost) has the most effect. I do not use ANY boost when I EQ my subs.

To do EQ properly, you have to have a measurement to work with. Since you have an 805 and a computer, you should have the ability to plug in your Audyssey mic and take an REW measurement to get things started. If you can't do a measurement, it is possible to generate recommended EQ settings from the modeled results, but this approach won't address any room issues.

Last edited by lilmike; 08-21-2014 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post

I see that this system is tuned to 17Hz.
I can see hitting that frequency with a sine generator, but are there actually movie soundtracks or music that go that low (other than something like DJ Magic Mike)?

I've ran both the lilwrecker and the f20 extensively (in the same room, same films, same location) and I can tell you the experience between the two is significantly different.
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:38 AM
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mr electric wiz. I think you'll find that 17hz is a pretty "high" tuning for most of the systems here. most people are chasing low teens/high single digits.

Yes, there is movie content there. music? not so much.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post


I know that DaveCE shook apart his first two MicroWrecker cabinets when gigging with them,

yeah those were my first cabs i built they werent constructed the greatest but they still work , they only have a slighlt rattle at very high volume , and i didnt use pl on those cabs , i used standard wood glue, the rest of the cabs ive built using pl have held up great

as far as the alpines ive beat on mine repeatedly , ive goten them hot a few times but were talking music with long low sine wave type base but i have yet to kill a driver, my typical gig is 4-6 hours at max volume for the whole time
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:49 PM
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I've ran both the lilwrecker and the f20 extensively (in the same room, same films, same location) and I can tell you the experience between the two is significantly different.

I've read the lilwrecker produces about twice what the F20 can.  I also understand it goes lower - are those the primary differences when you say significantly different?  

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I've read the lilwrecker produces about twice what the F20 can.  I also understand it goes lower - are those the primary differences when you say significantly different?  

5 Hz and 5 dB is more like it. Not quite twice, but still significant.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:55 AM
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This is designed with bracing in mind for this to lay flat / horizontally.  I am considering placing this behind a wall, but would need to have it stand up vertically.  I can't image it impacting the sound this produces, but wonder if there is additional bracing that should be employed?

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Old 02-19-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDad View Post

This is designed with bracing in mind for this to lay flat / horizontally.  I am considering placing this behind a wall, but would need to have it stand up vertically.  I can't image it impacting the sound this produces, but wonder if there is additional bracing that should be employed?

Might not hurt to brace the mouth opening if standing it up.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:54 PM
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Excellent idea on using the multi-tool. I will file that one away for when I make my next mistake. The recip saw is not "subtle" but it will take things right apart.
As far as setting up the 805? No idea, haven't worked with an Onkyo in quite a while.

Setting DSP filters is pretty easy, download the iNuke software and just play with it. I typically use parametric EQs, the Q factor sets the width, the center frequency is where the cut (or boost) has the most effect. I do not use ANY boost when I EQ my subs.

To do EQ properly, you have to have a measurement to work with. Since you have an 805 and a computer, you should have the abil;ity to plug in your Audyssey mic and take an REW measurement to get things started. If you can't do a measurement, it is possible to generate recommended EQ settings from the modeled results, but this approach won't address any room issues.

Hi Mike/other experienced audiophiles, I have finished my build and have my speaker in the unit (set up in parallel as stated would work great with the Inuke 3000 DSP and the Alpine D4 speaker combo) and all of my wiring from the receiver to amplifier, amplifier to subwoofer hooked up.  As with pretty much everything else I need some more hand-holding to go forward, I just do not have any experience with amplifiers and it is somewhat daunting although I am sure once I go through this it will be pretty simple.  My concern initially is just to make sure that I cannot do anything that will harm the speaker with the amp settings/volume.  If I know any of the things that could cause harm I can make sure I do not do them and start playing with the amp and the subwoofer.

 

Is setting the high pass filter per Mike's recommendations at 20hz in the 3000DSP as simple as just going into parametric EQ and dialing in 20hz in filter 1?  Do I need to do the same thing in the tab under Filter/Crossover as well?  

 

Is the Room EQ Wizard Software just to tune in the sub or is it required to make it sound decent period?  I have have never used it so if there is a place I can head that provides specific step by step instructions just lead me there an I will start reading.  Also, if there are any other places that I need to be doing more homework instead of pestering you guys I will do it, I am really flying completely blind because ALL of the audiophile part of this is not that you folks understand I have never done.  I am grateful for all of the help.

 

 

Joe

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Old 02-24-2014, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjbrim View Post

Hi Mike/other experienced audiophiles, I have finished my build and have my speaker in the unit (set up in parallel as stated would work great with the Inuke 3000 DSP and the Alpine D4 speaker combo) and all of my wiring from the receiver to amplifier, amplifier to subwoofer hooked up.  As with pretty much everything else I need some more hand-holding to go forward, I just do not have any experience with amplifiers and it is somewhat daunting although I am sure once I go through this it will be pretty simple.  My concern initially is just to make sure that I cannot do anything that will harm the speaker with the amp settings/volume.  If I know any of the things that could cause harm I can make sure I do not do them and start playing with the amp and the subwoofer.

Is setting the high pass filter per Mike's recommendations at 20hz in the 3000DSP as simple as just going into parametric EQ and dialing in 20hz in filter 1?  Do I need to do the same thing in the tab under Filter/Crossover as well?  

Is the Room EQ Wizard Software just to tune in the sub or is it required to make it sound decent period?  I have have never used it so if there is a place I can head that provides specific step by step instructions just lead me there an I will start reading.  Also, if there are any other places that I need to be doing more homework instead of pestering you guys I will do it, I am really flying completely blind because ALL of the audiophile part of this is not that you folks understand I have never done.  I am grateful for all of the help.


Joe

Joe,

With a D4 and a single channel, I'd wire the coils in series for an 8-ohm load and bridge the amp. With a pair, I'd parallel the coils and run the amp in stereo.

If a LilWrecker, Follow LTD02s instructions on setting the highpass below 20 Hz. With a MicroWrecker, 4th order 20 Hz is fine. Change the setting to Linkwitz Riley or Butterworth (your choice), set the slope (at least 24 dB/oct), then set the frequency.

You can set limiters in the iNuke as well, these will keep you from hurting your speaker if you're concerned about that. That is the configuration page. Simply turn the knob to the limit maximum watts that the amp will deliver. I've never bothered.

With the highpass in place, it is time for EQ. That is where REW and measurements come in to play. There is no need to measure at more than about 90 dB, all it does is stress the system more. I've taken care of the high power measurements for you, don't risk your junk.

There are TONS of REW how-tos out there, several good ones here, lots of information over at Home Theater Shack. Most of the problems I've experienced with REW have to do with configuration of the sound card.

With a measurement, we can pick proper parametric EQ, which are then entered into the Behringer's DSP as parametric EQ entries. It typically takes three or for cuts to get things sounding decently good. I avoid boost.

Once the highpass and limiter are in place, anything likely to damage your speaker would also likely be making you grab the volume knob, it will be LOUD.
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:45 AM
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I finished the build (first LilWrecker), I will be building another one very soon.  Early on I asked how my Sunfire Subwoofer would compare to a couple F-20's or the LilWrecker and folks on the forum tried to give some thought.  My thought is this; they are two different animals.  Both subwoofers produce loud bass, the LilWrecker has a different magnitude. The deep and powerful bass reminds me of being close to train tracks when  slow moving freight train is approaching, you feel and hear something that you know is powerful.  I like my Sunfire and it is small and powerful, however the depth of bass is not the same as the LilWrecker.I want to thank Mike and LTD02 for answering some of my PM's on this build and I want to thank others that have replied to my many questions on the forum.

 

I would like to ask a few more questions on tuning the sub.  I have downloaded the REW software to my HTPC and it has an internal sound card.  I have an Onkyo 805 receiver powering my system and the Inuke 3000DSP powering the LilWrecker.  I do not have a mic, SPL meter, or external sound card.  If one of you folks were me however you know how to use the REW software AND/OR tune the sub how would you do it on a budget with what I have (i.e. do I need to purchase a calibrated mic and SPL meter or are there other options)?  I believe Mike was attempting to let me know how to use my Audessey mic from the Onkyo with my computer to model some of this, I just don't completely understand.  If anyone can tell me what they did with some specific steps that would be great.

 

Again, thank you for letting me ask ALL of these questions and provide your help.

 

 

Joe  

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Old 03-01-2014, 12:16 PM
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quick question. From the pictures in final installation, looks like people are positioning with the long side on the ground. Will these stay upright as a tower?

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Old 03-01-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Guyontheroad View Post

quick question. From the pictures in final installation, looks like people are positioning with the long side on the ground. Will these stay upright as a tower?
Yes
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:58 PM
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I have gotten to the point in the build where I have cut the speaker hole in the baffle.  I have a couple questions:

*  I am using the Alpine speaker, does the thick rubber stay on the speaker when mounted?

*  Home Depot only had 1 1/2 inch socket head cap screws, I have not constructed the inserts yet so do not know if this is too short, anyone know if I need the 1 3/4 inch version per the instructions?

*  Since there is no nut that will attach to the end of the screws how do they keep from coming loose?

 

Might be crystal clear once I put the inserts in, just wanted to see if anyone knows off hand.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Joe

 

I have an Alpine too. What did you end up doing with the gasket? There aren't holes through the top of it where the screws would need to go. Not sure if i should drill out the gasket or if i'm missing something. 

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Old 03-03-2014, 08:10 PM
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Hi Hvy 1ton,

 

At first glance the rubber looks like it is just one piece.  However if you pry it up a little you will see that the top cap is an insert and will come out leaving both rubber and the mounting holes.

 

 

 

Joe

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Old 03-14-2014, 11:52 AM
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Hi, first thank you Mike for a great design! smile.gif
This sub is awesome! cool.gif

Just finished watching walking with dinosaur and after was listening to some hip hop when the smell of burning rubber or solder started.... eek.gif
is this normal?

First and second light on the inuke was flickering.
setup: sc-65 to inuke 3000dsp in bridge mode to lilwrecker with alpine type s wired in 8ohm with 12 gauge wiring.

Just hope I haven't fried anything...

Thanks for the help.

Phil.
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