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post #541 of 567 Old 08-11-2014, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Nothing at a watt, but the potential is there for a LOT more power handling. The Q is rated at 1500 W, and has 27 mm of xmax.

1500 watts will take it a touch past xmax in this cabinet, but should still be well within xmech. It models a touch over 125 dB at that point.

In a nutshell, you're looking at a gain of about 6 dB, provided you have enough amp to get there and the effects of power compression are similar for both drivers. I'm not sure about distortion profiles, I've not done detailed measurements of either driver. Some day when I have the spare time and spare cash...

The XLS 1000 isn't nearly enough amp, if I was shopping in the XLS section, I'd look at the XLS 2500, bridged, I'd consider the XLS 2000 bridged as an absolute minimum.
Thanks for the reply. If I understand correctly, if I built another cab using the Alpine driver and bought another XLS 1000 just to drive it I'd also be adding about 6db, right? Economically, building a 2nd cab would probably be cheaper than trying to "upgrade" my current LilWrecker.
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post #542 of 567 Old 08-11-2014, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Exactly. Double the cabinets/power = +6 dB.

If you've got the room, that's the route I'd recommend.

When it comes to smoothing out room modes, two sources is generally better than one.
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post #543 of 567 Old 08-11-2014, 06:28 PM
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Exactly. Double the cabinets/power = +6 dB.

If you've got the room, that's the route I'd recommend.

When it comes to smoothing out room modes, two sources is generally better than one.
Damn. Out of space. Time to build a new house!
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post #544 of 567 Old 08-12-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Damn. Out of space. Time to build a new house!
That's the approach I took.
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post #545 of 567 Old 08-13-2014, 01:30 PM
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That's the approach I took.
I should also plan for a house that rattles a little less. Lorde's "White Teeth Teens" really makes the Alpine driver smell bad.
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post #546 of 567 Old 08-13-2014, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll let you know if the new house rattles less. The old house really complained.
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post #547 of 567 Old 08-16-2014, 01:27 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked (repeatedly), but does it matter the orientation of the sub mouth? That is, can I stand the cabinet up or lay it down with the mouth to the front/back/top?

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post #548 of 567 Old 08-17-2014, 02:23 PM
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I see someone asked about standing the horn up. Are there any long term issues with the driver in that orientation? I'm beginning to think that standing up in the corner may be the best configuration for me.
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post #549 of 567 Old 08-17-2014, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Sorry if this has been asked (repeatedly), but does it matter the orientation of the sub mouth? That is, can I stand the cabinet up or lay it down with the mouth to the front/back/top?
I'd go with whatever works best in your room.

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I see someone asked about standing the horn up. Are there any long term issues with the driver in that orientation? I'm beginning to think that standing up in the corner may be the best configuration for me.
When I can, I pay attention to driver orientation in an effort to minimize cone sag. When I can't, that's about the last thing I worry about. Fitting it into the room is the fundamental concern, having it sound good where it sits is a very close second.

Remember, for the most part, I choose to use car-audio drivers with a relatively stiff suspension in my tapped horn designs. They were designed to be beaten on mercilessly in all manner of orientations in a much harsher environment than a home theater. I've not heard of any problems due to orientation yet.
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post #550 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 08:52 AM
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Good points, those kicker and alpine subs are rather robust and strong cones and thick rubber surrounds but cost effective because of economies of scale in big batch MFG. . I would't be too worried about that, especially since the drivers are inexpensive. Using it normally would/should result in many years of happy operation, in any orientation. If you have to "upgrade" or swap out the driver in 5 years that's not a totally crazy thing anyways.

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post #551 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 09:32 AM
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This will be my first horn, so I feel like I'm drinking from a fire hose trying to learn everything. Would any of the recommended drivers be preferable over the others considering the orientation I want to use? That is, do some of those drivers have a stiffer suspension than the others? I'm also looking for a lot of output, so I don't know if those are competing objectives or not.

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post #552 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 09:40 AM
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The Alpine sws-15 is that which you seek.

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post #553 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
This will be my first horn, so I feel like I'm drinking from a fire hose trying to learn everything. Would any of the recommended drivers be preferable over the others considering the orientation I want to use? That is, do some of those drivers have a stiffer suspension than the others? I'm also looking for a lot of output, so I don't know if those are competing objectives or not.
You need a driver with certain charecteristics that make it good for a horn. A strong cone is one, you want it to handle the internal pressures inside the horn and not die on you. You'll need a strong cone and surrounds for that. You also want a strong motor so the driver can keep control. Some drivers will work better than others, but it's like anything else usually the higher end drivers work better because they have beefier construction, bigger magnets, bigger motors, stronger cones, etc... I think a weak paper cone would get demolished and die a horrible death in a horn.

But the car subs that lilmike tends to use are high quality, usually the upper line or high end line of big MFG companies, but you get decent prices because it's a car sub and made in higher economies of scale than a boutique home audio subwoofer.

A nice Alpine isn't crazy money, you can buy them all over even locally probably. They have a decent warranty. I would not go testing something new, stick with what works.

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post #554 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 10:15 AM
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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know there is a list of "approved" drivers in the first post. I'm wondering if there are certain drivers on that list that are better suited to a vertical orientation. That is, which are car audio drivers? I looked at the SI driver, but they seem to be intended for HT use, so I'm guessing those are not as good a candidate? Has a better driver for the lilwrecker been identified recently?

I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel, just trying to narrow the list of existing options.

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post #555 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 12:09 PM
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I see the Stereo Integrity HT15D4 is only $145. Is that the correct driver? Is the performance equivalent to the Alpine? That's cheap!

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post #556 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 12:24 PM
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http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-SWS-15D2.html

$129 > $145

http://www.amazon.com/SWS-15D2-Alpin.../dp/B007YK0F9K

http://www.amazon.com/SWS-15D4-Alpin.../dp/B0081JFX8G

Edit: $116 / $118 on Amazon.

I wonder how the difference is between the type S and the type R ?
http://www.amazon.com/Alpine-SWR-12D...eywords=type+R


The higher model isn't much more, but does it work better or worse in a horn ???

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post #557 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 12:46 PM
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So the Alpine would be preferred of the SI?

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post #558 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 01:33 PM
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I think so. It models a little better.

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post #559 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
So the Alpine would be preferred of the SI?
Both seem to work.

I've got zero first hand experience with either.

The Alpine offers nearly the same xmax, more xmech, and similar power handling for less money.
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post #560 of 567 Old 08-18-2014, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-SWS-15D2.html

$129 > $145

http://www.amazon.com/SWS-15D2-Alpin.../dp/B007YK0F9K

http://www.amazon.com/SWS-15D4-Alpin.../dp/B0081JFX8G

Edit: $116 / $118 on Amazon.

I wonder how the difference is between the type S and the type R ?
http://www.amazon.com/Alpine-SWR-12D...eywords=type+R


The higher model isn't much more, but does it work better or worse in a horn ???
Type R 15 is not so good in a tapped horn.

Type R 12 is a monster in a tapped horn (at least for a 12...).

It really takes a pair of them to do some damage though....
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post #561 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 09:26 AM
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^^^^ Nice!

Is the D2 or D4 version preferred? I know this has been discussed previously, but I'm trying to get a handle on which is more flexible. I'd be running two of these up front, and possibly another in the rear of my theater (it's a big room).

I don't know if I need to plan to apply separate DSP to the front two or not? Does that make a difference in choosing between the D2 and D4?

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post #562 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 10:47 AM
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Do you want to run off one amp channel ? If so you want a 4 ohm load, or (2) 2ohm VC wired in parallel. If you want to bridge, you'd configure it for a 8ohm load, then bridge to that and get 4ohms and use both channels. So I'd say the dual 2 ohm VC is the best option.

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post #563 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 11:08 AM
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I have no idea how I plan to drive these. I don't have the amps at this point, so I'm looking for the most flexible setup.

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post #564 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 11:25 AM
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Dual VC is always more flexible. With 2 voice coils you can effectively get a 4 ohm load, 8 ohm for bridged load, even 1ohm load if you found an amp with huge balls.

In the case of the Alpine they both work well so it won't matter. It will only matter if you are limited on your amp options. You probably would end up with a iNUKE 3000DSP or something you think ? You'll want probably an effective 4 ohm load.

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post #565 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 11:33 AM
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Would that be the dual 2 ohm VC, then? Connected in series I assume?

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post #566 of 567 Old 08-19-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
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Would that be the dual 2 ohm VC, then? Connected in series I assume?
Depends on if you want to run one cabinet or two cabinets per amp ?

With dual 2 ohm voice coils you can series wire them for a single 4 ohm load, meaning the entire cabinet has a single 4 ohm load presented to amp. If you had two amp channels you could run two cabinets off one amp. You'd buy a bigger amp ( big enough to run both) which costs less than two amps, even if they are smaller. So cost per watts is great.

If you wanted run one cabinet per amp then you'd want dual 4 ohm voice coils. One voice coil per amp channel. Smaller amp, but more amps. The benefit would be if you use amps with DSP you can tweak each cabinet individually a little more. But even with different amp channels you can tweak the cabs with eq or different crossover points all on same amp usually. It depends on models but lost have independent settings for each channel.
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post #567 of 567 Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
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What would be a "upgrade" to the SI or the Alpine driver? Is there an elite level driver for a few hundred more that would also work well in this design ?

Probably the LMS or the Sundown ? Anyone ever tested one of those or something like it in this cabinet ?

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