Lilmike's LilWrecker - Page 24 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 37Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #691 of 710 Old 06-12-2015, 11:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,473
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 337
I checked my HD today, and sure enough, it's real Arauco. At least, the sticker on it says "Product of Chile." Looks like I waisted $80
Mfusick and bryan.lynch like this.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
J_P_A is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #692 of 710 Old 06-17-2015, 05:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Hi all,

I've read through this thread several times over the past few weeks and I'm very seriously considering building a pair. I have built horns before; I have four BFM T48s under my belt. I am a fan of BFM cabs and considered the THT series but the two form factors do not work for my situation.

Among the things I've learned from this thread is "If you want more output without adding more cabs, use a better driver and power it appropriately." Got the power part covered. I have two QSC RMX2450A amps ready to go. They do 2400 watts RMS @ 4-ohm mono. They will be on 20-amp dedicated circuits, one per amp, so they will get very close to that 2,400 watts...not that I'd probably use that much, but it's there.

I am looking at the Fi Q15. It's obviously better than the Alpine SWS, and at 3x the price it better darn well be. But is it 3x the price better? It's got 3x the RMS power handling. It has almost twice the XMax: 28mm vs. 15mm. Almost the same sensitivity: 89.4 vs. 88.7...pretty much a wash there.

Being that I have the power to make full use of what the Fi has to offer, with two lilWreckers with the Fi and 2,400 watts each, would I get close to the output of say, 4 lilWreckers with the Alpine drivers @ 500watts each?

I know how to use WinISD to model ported and sealed subs, but WinISD doesn't do horns...and I know what HornResp is, but am afraid to even look at it.

BTW, the proposed lilWreckers will be in a dedicated HT doing movies and that's it. I assume I don't have to add that "I like it loud" since I'm posting this thread to begin with.

Your help is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

Mike D


ps
Forgot to add that I have a miniDSP 2x4 so I can do whatever EQing needs to be done.
Patzig likes this.

Last edited by michaelddd; 06-17-2015 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Added miniDSP blurb.
michaelddd is online now  
post #693 of 710 Old 06-17-2015, 07:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
One other note/request: Someone in this thread posted the dimensions or some file (.txt file?) for window braces. I know how to cut them, but haven't the slightest idea how to size them. They are narrower on the small end and wider on the large end...parallelograms?
michaelddd is online now  
post #694 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 05:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,473
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 337
Someone posted a PDF of CAD drawings with the brace dimensions. Is that what you're asking about? I'm not sure what your question is.

Found it. I think this is the post.
michaelddd likes this.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun

Last edited by J_P_A; 06-18-2015 at 05:07 AM.
J_P_A is offline  
post #695 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 08:08 AM
Member
 
Patzig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelddd View Post
I am looking at the Fi Q15.

Being that I have the power to make full use of what the Fi has to offer, with two lilWreckers with the Fi and 2,400 watts each, would I get close to the output of say, 4 lilWreckers with the Alpine drivers @ 500watts each?

I know how to use WinISD to model ported and sealed subs, but WinISD doesn't do horns...and I know what HornResp is, but am afraid to even look at it.
I modeled the Fi Q 15 just yesterday...it looks decent.

I've modeled about a dozen drivers in the lil wrecker, looking for that "perfect driver". Obviously with this type of enclosure, the FR responses are going to look similar across different drivers. The differences I have noticed are bigger/smaller peaks and dips, as well as the low end roll off. I currently have a SI HT15D2, that I was able to model and also measure. I think it's on the previous page...you can see that this driver measured really well (no big dips/peaks in the low end) but it actually rolled off early around 20Hz. Most of the other drivers I've modeled roll off closer to 17Hz, as intended. Some drivers, the Sundown Z.3 D2 for example, model to show huge peaks and dips. While you can eq the peaks down, you can't really boost the dips, so I try to stay away from those. Just my opinion tho, perhaps eq'ing all of the peaks down to match the dips, will still make this huge driver a winner in this cabinet.

As for your output question, I don't think there is a good way to model this. Looking at all the drivers I've modeled, they appear to all show to be within +/- 2db of each other in Hornresp. Obviously a driver showing a more sensitive model would look more appealing, but as you mentioned, the max spl or ceiling of a driver might be more important. We've both got amps with way more power on tap than needed for this sub, so investing in a "more beefy" driver would make sense, as we can get more total output from a single enclosure. The hard part, is it's hard to tell which drivers are more beefy and can take more power before smoking. One thing I've noticed with the SI HT15D2, is that I have made it stink (coil got too hot, but didn't burn up) well before I ran out of driver throw (with a proper high pass filter of course). So this makes me want purchase a beefy driver that maybe has a more capable coil/motor.

Because Mike is awesome and posted the hornresp file, it isn't hard to model different drivers. Import his .txt file, and then all you need to do change the driver params to whatever you want to model. There's some good tutorials for Hornresp out there, but this is what I do:

1. Import horn resp file from .txt
2. Enter these driver params in this order: Sd, Re, Le.
3. Double click on these params in this order. When you double click, the app will ask you to enter other params, and the it will calculate that param for you: Cms, Mmd, Bl, Rms.
4. Click "Calculate", then go to Window -> 4 Acoustical Power, to see the FR.

There's no way to explain over text just how crazy this sub is...you'll just have to hear it for yourself. That being said, with the power you've got, it won't be hard to fry a coil on most of these drivers in the lil wrecker, so be careful

I've got a Sundown SA-15D2 that it supposed to get here tomorrow. I guessing that it's motor is somewhat equivalent to the SI HTD2 in terms of how much power it will take, but it reaches down to 17Hz, much better than the SI. I intend to build 4 lil wreckers eventually, so a smoother FR is more important to me than total output, as 4 lil wreckers will be way way more spl than I'll ever actually need. I'll try to post some measurements this weekend.

Oh also, Fi didn't post the Le for the Q 15...I read somewhere that it is "5.25".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SI HT15D2.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	73.7 KB
ID:	782794   Click image for larger version

Name:	SA-15 D2 DATA BASS SPECS.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	74.1 KB
ID:	782802   Click image for larger version

Name:	Fi Q 15 D2.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	72.9 KB
ID:	782810   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sundown Z.3 D2.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	78.6 KB
ID:	782818  
Mfusick likes this.

Last edited by Patzig; 06-18-2015 at 08:17 AM.
Patzig is offline  
post #696 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 02:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Someone posted a PDF of CAD drawings with the brace dimensions. Is that what you're asking about? I'm not sure what your question is.

Found it. I think this is the post.
Yep, that's it! Thanks very much, JPA.
J_P_A likes this.
michaelddd is online now  
post #697 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 02:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
@Patzig: Thanks for the detailed post and graphs. I may fool around with HornResp this weekend...should have some time. Though my poweramps don't have a limiter built in, I do plan on at least trying to ensure the subs don't get way more juice than they can handle. I plan on doing a "gain structure" type setup using test tones and a DMM. Assuming I go with the Fi driver, if I limit to the volt equivalent for 2Kw, I should be fine.


I read the posts from the guy that put in Fi Q15's after he blew up his Alpine drivers. Curious if anyone else has gone with a premium driver for this cab? I'm probably going to do it anyway, but would be nice to read some more thoughts/opinions.


I probably should've mentioned this in my OP, but I'm looking at two lilWreckers with the Fi driver over two LLT cabs with UM-18's. Same amp power. Aside from a 30" depth limitation I'm not limited to specific cab size. I'm not chasing single-digit FR but definitely want to be comfortably able to get down to 17Hz-ish territory.
michaelddd is online now  
post #698 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 02:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,473
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 337
I was originally planning to go with the Fi's as well, but the high inductance scared me away. Whether or not it actually makes a difference is an argument for another thread and people that know a heck of a lot more about it than me! I decided this was my first build. I'd likely screw something up, and I'll probably want to try my hand at another build sooner or later, anyway. With those nuggets in mind I decided to go with cheap drivers and chalk these first two up to moving along the learning curve.

We'll see how it pans out, though. Your situation is a bit different than mine, I believe.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
J_P_A is offline  
post #699 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 03:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Well, my situation is different than yours in that this isn't my first sub build, nor my first horn. But I'm not a designer of things; I just build stuff that smart people have designed. I'm a cloner of things.

I'm also trying to get away with two cabs. My room is 3200sf, but with the screen wall in place that will cut it down to 2700sf. Not sure if the acoustically-transparent screen wall makes a difference in the SF of the room or not. I could fit four cabs behind the screen wall but it would be really tight. I prefer not to have any cabs out in the viewing area. It might not wind up that way, that's the plan for right now. I'm thinking that if I can pressurize the bejeebus out of the room from up front, I'd be very happy with that. I'd like to do that with two "Godzilla cabs" vs. four of whatever if possible. Cost is a factor, sure, but it's more along the lines of the "total cost": wood, glue, more drivers and the time to build.

Last edited by michaelddd; 06-18-2015 at 04:14 PM.
michaelddd is online now  
post #700 of 710 Old 06-18-2015, 10:28 PM
Member
 
the-jessman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Eastern Washington State
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I can't speak as to how well the FI Q 15 will work in a LilWrecker, but I do have first hand experience with FI products. They are one of the few driver manufacturers that does everything in house, in the USA. They are VERY nicely made pieces of hardware, and for what you are getting I think their cost is VERY reasonable. I would not hesitate to use FI products when they are appropriate.

"Nothing prevents people from knowing the truth more than the belief they already know it."
"Making bass is easy, making music is the hard part!"

My Audio Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/triticumaudio
Instagram: http://instagram.com/triticumaudio
the-jessman is online now  
post #701 of 710 Old Yesterday, 04:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Thanks for the input on Fi drivers. They certainly look nice, both physically and spec-wise. I am sometimes hesitant to buy drivers from yet another "car audio" driver manufacturer...you know...the Transformers or "BOOM" logo on the dustcap. But then again, the baseline driver for this cab is a $120 "car stereo sub", albeit from a reputable one. I would certainly hope at $320 for a 15" driver that I'd be getting a premium driver that won't go up in smoke if I get anywhere near the RMS rating.
michaelddd is online now  
post #702 of 710 Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quick question: Would the box benefit from corner deflectors made as short as possible, of course? That would shorten the horn path ever so slightly, but should help the soundwaves travel more smoothly through the throat, no?
michaelddd is online now  
post #703 of 710 Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,473
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 337
Ughhhh.... One of my hurricane nuts spun when I was mounting the driver. So, now I have to decide whether to just give it a try or cut the bolt off and pick a way to fix it. I could try t-nut glued in there I suppose. Other than that I guess I'd need to rotate the driver and drill new holes.

Thoughts?

With regard to the previous post, I think someone asked about corner braces before and the response was something along the lines that the extra volume in the corners could be a good thing.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
J_P_A is offline  
post #704 of 710 Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 28,100
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 1657
You mean like those metal L shaped brackets ?
Mfusick is offline  
post #705 of 710 Old Yesterday, 04:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
No, not L-brackets. Pieces of wood with 45-degree angles on the ends that go into the corner where the horn path goes around the corner. As in the panel the red arrow is pointing to in the attached pic. Much smaller, of course.

@J_P_A: I would try to cut the bolt, remove the driver, remove the bad hurricane nut/pieces of bolt and reinstall a new nut and try again. You could drill new holes, but then you have to patch the old ones. And trying to drill new holes in an assembled cab would be difficult to hold the drill perfectly parallel. You could wind up with holes that are not straight.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.JPG
Views:	18
Size:	29.1 KB
ID:	785658  
michaelddd is online now  
post #706 of 710 Old Yesterday, 08:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 4,473
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 426 Post(s)
Liked: 337
This post and the one following it address the corner reflectors. Hope that answers your question, as I have no idea.

I got the driver out. I put a T-nut in there with a liberal coat of Gorilla Glue. I'll run a tap through all the nuts before I try to mount the driver again tomorrow.... Fingers crossed!

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

The Plains Theater Has Begun
J_P_A is offline  
post #707 of 710 Old Today, 06:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,702
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 109
quick question to those of you familiar with hornresp, I have no skills with it so modeling is out for myself personally, but which of the drivers in the OP would be considered the best PERFORMANCE by a good margin... we have drivers that range anywhere form $120 for something like the Alpine, to $530 for the Sundown 15... I guess I should say, which one is going to really push this design to the max without blowing triple the price for say 2% performance boost. like, would using 1500 watts into a Z3 with this sucker be THAT much better than the alpine at 500 watts? I'm wanting to go as premium as i can as long as the performance increases are worth it.
wormraper is online now  
post #708 of 710 Old Today, 07:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
michaelddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 78
@wormraper: Your question is similar to mine in post #692 and Patzig gave a pretty good answer, above. Like you, I also tried to use logic with regards to the "Premium Driver Question." The two main reasons I'm probably going to build two of these cabs with the Fi driver are:


1. The Fi driver is listed in the original post as "Tested and Proven" which to me, means the driver is NOT in the "Looks good on paper and theoretically should work just fine" but the "It's been tested and it works great!" category
2. The Fi driver's RMS rating is much closer the power I have on hand and if I'm careful, should survive a long time. I already have the amps, so I'm trying to match a driver to the amp. I'd smoke the Alpine's in a week.


If you and I both go with the premium drivers, another small plus is that the resale value should be decent, should we decide to sell them.


Hope this helps somewhat. I'm still on the fence too but talking it out helps.
michaelddd is online now  
post #709 of 710 Old Today, 11:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,702
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 247 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelddd View Post
@wormraper: Your question is similar to mine in post #692 and Patzig gave a pretty good answer, above. Like you, I also tried to use logic with regards to the "Premium Driver Question." The two main reasons I'm probably going to build two of these cabs with the Fi driver are:


1. The Fi driver is listed in the original post as "Tested and Proven" which to me, means the driver is NOT in the "Looks good on paper and theoretically should work just fine" but the "It's been tested and it works great!" category
2. The Fi driver's RMS rating is much closer the power I have on hand and if I'm careful, should survive a long time. I already have the amps, so I'm trying to match a driver to the amp. I'd smoke the Alpine's in a week.


If you and I both go with the premium drivers, another small plus is that the resale value should be decent, should we decide to sell them.


Hope this helps somewhat. I'm still on the fence too but talking it out helps.
just read the last 7 or so pages. looks like the FI Q 15 or the Kicker is the way to go. much better output than the Alpines.... I'm SORELY tempted on a pair of those . I love horns, I had 2 THT's but I had to get rid of them for my SI 18's since I had some issues plus wanted the 6 hz lower tune point of my marty's
wormraper is online now  
post #710 of 710 Old Today, 11:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 18,193
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1202 Post(s)
Liked: 1541
is there a link to the lilwrecker with fi driver measurements?


worm, the kicker driver ~doubled in price iirc since the build used it.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off