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post #181 of 585 Old 03-03-2013, 01:20 AM
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Well just buy a SWS and build one of these TH's. biggrin.gif


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post #182 of 585 Old 03-04-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locoelectrician View Post

Thanks, if by "ok" you mean no better than a decent ported box I probably won't bother. We mostly use our setup for HT but nights like tonight max SPL is key. The ported box we made works fantastic but we love to build things from scratch and the art as well as potential of your design has us curious. We currently have 2 behringer 18s, 1 rockford t112d2 in our DIY box and the other in a car stereo shop prebuilt. My sons and I get great satisfaction out of building things you can't buy in the stores and this thread had had our attention for a few weeks. Guess it took a few beers to finally post and ask.

No worries.

"OK" is more of a caveat based on not knowing the REAL thiele small parameters for that driver, just going off the ones from the marketing department.

If those specs are accurate, the horn should put about 4 dB on the ported box at the low corner.

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post #183 of 585 Old 03-07-2013, 09:05 PM
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Mike LW vs MW are they both needing the same amount of wattage and both just as efficient?

Or is the MW a little more Efficient?

Just curious between the two compared against each other is all. Same drivers(SWS) and same wattage.


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post #184 of 585 Old 03-07-2013, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The Micro is more efficient, but gives up about 4 or 5 Hz of extension. The Micro is a LOT smaller at under 20 cubic feet. Something had to give.



Micro in black, LilWrecker in gray. Both 2.83V, loaded with an SWS15D4.

In band, the SWS will be within linear xmax at 500 watts when in the Micro, when in the LilWrecker it will be about 5 mm past the linear limit.

Still well within xmech though.

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post #185 of 585 Old 03-08-2013, 08:32 AM
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I have a 15" lms ultra 5400 and a 15" tc5200. How do you think they would perform in either of these enclosures? (micro and lil)
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post #186 of 585 Old 03-08-2013, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maintrain View Post

I have a 15" lms ultra 5400 and a 15" tc5200. How do you think they would perform in either of these enclosures? (micro and lil)

I don't have specs for the 5200, but the 5400 should work in either design. If it were me and I had the space, I'd put it in the LilWrecker.

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post #187 of 585 Old 03-09-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I don't have specs for the 5200, but the 5400 should work in either design. If it were me and I had the space, I'd put it in the LilWrecker.

Thanks lilmike. I think I will put the 5400 in the lilwrecker. I was able to find the specs on the 5200 via the wayback machine. Apparently it has a stronger motor force than the 5400 but no LMS coil. Tell me what you think:

15" TC-5200 QVC

Qts 0.159
Qes 0.164
Qms 5.1
Fs 22Hz
Res 4.52Ω
Ls 6.56mH
Lp 10.6mH
Rp 13.7Ω
Dia 315mm
Vas 109l
mms 517g
cms 109um/N
bl 43T*m
Spl 90.2dB
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post #188 of 585 Old 03-10-2013, 08:08 AM
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Anyone in or around the ATL put one of these together yet? I've built speakers but never anything of this scale and I don't have the measuring equipment (currently) for when it is built. So I'm looking for a local mentor. While I would love to just pick up and move to the Pacific Northwest that currently isn't in the cards.
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post #189 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 04:52 AM
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Ok so I thought you stated some where but I cant find it. What is the wattage limit on the SWSD4 with a 20hz Hpass?

I know I may run into thermal limits so I dont want to push this thing as hard as possible. I want to push but still have these for a while. PLUS I plan on eventually making four of them. I was looking at amplifiers today and figured 2000 watts x2 would be enough for four but want to be sure.


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post #190 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Ok so I thought you stated some where but I cant find it. What is the wattage limit on the SWSD4 with a 20hz Hpass?

I know I may run into thermal limits so I dont want to push this thing as hard as possible. I want to push but still have these for a while. PLUS I plan on eventually making four of them. I was looking at amplifiers today and figured 2000 watts x2 would be enough for four but want to be sure.

With this driver in the Micro (in band), the limits are thermal, not excursion. Alpine's engineers (smarter than me) say the driver will handle 500 watts RMS, 1500 peak. In simulation-land, 500 keeps you within linear xmax, and 1500 is still safely within xmech. Seems to me that an amp somewhere in the 500 to 1000 watt RMS range should be fine with typical program material, so long as you're not listening to pure sine wave tones, much more than that and I think you'd be asking for trouble.

Using an effective 20 Hz highpass isn't an option. It will save the driver from trying to reproduce the low stuff out of band. The first in-band excursion maxima is right at 30 Hz.

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post #191 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 08:48 AM
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Hey Mike. I posted the specs for the 5200. Would love to hear your thoughts...
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post #192 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maintrain View Post

Hey Mike. I posted the specs for the 5200. Would love to hear your thoughts...

Sorry - took a look at them, and dismissed it, but never posted why.
Those specs look like they are for a 12. Also looks like far too much motor to function well in a typical tapped horn.

15" TC-5200 QVC

Qts 0.159
Qes 0.164
Qms 5.1
Fs 22Hz
Res 4.52Ω
Ls 6.56mH
Lp 10.6mH
Rp 13.7Ω
Dia 315mm - this is ~12 inches
Vas 109l
mms 517g
cms 109um/N
bl 43T*m
Spl 90.2dB

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post #193 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 10:40 AM
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sorry, typo. that should be 325mm.
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post #194 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Still - 325 mm is ~12.8" so unless we're dealing with a HUGE surround, that seems a bit small.

Regardless - that means Sd will be under 800, probably closer to 700. With a BL over 40, and an Re that is about 6 (quad 1.5s?), that is lots of motor for a relatively small cone.

Definitely too much motor for use in this tapped horn.

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post #195 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Still - 325 mm is ~12.8" so unless we're dealing with a HUGE surround, that seems a bit small.

Regardless - that means Sd will be under 800, probably closer to 700. With a BL over 40, and an Re that is about 6 (quad 1.5s?), that is lots of motor for a relatively small cone.

Definitely too much motor for use in this tapped horn.

Will probably get yelled at, since I am not searching, but why is to much motor force a bad thing in a horn.

I ask because I was wanting to try my hand at building one of these.
I have a TC buyout 15 with a TC9 motor that I was thinking about trying just because I have it. It was an OEM for a HT sub with a matching passive. No other info. I need to test it for the T/S parameters.

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post #196 of 585 Old 03-13-2013, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Will probably get yelled at, since I am not searching, but why is to much motor force a bad thing in a horn.

I ask because I was wanting to try my hand at building one of these.
I have a TC buyout 15 with a TC9 motor that I was thinking about trying just because I have it. It was an OEM for a HT sub with a matching passive. No other info. I need to test it for the T/S parameters.

I didn't say "any tapped horn", I said "this tapped horn".

Now, keep in mind that I'm only a hobbyist when it comes to tapped horn design. I have had no formal training in acoustics or anything like that. My design decisions and processes are purely based on my own experience and empirical results.

For me, designing a tapped horn is a balancing act. The amount of motor force, the driver's cone area, and the area and rate of expansion of the horn all must be balanced appropriately for things to work out according to the model.

All else being equal, in simulation-land, the larger motored drivers (higher BL) tend to want a smaller horn at the throat end in order to achieve a reasonably flat response. That's great, except that in actual use, the driver diameter sets the minimum width of the horn, we're not dealing with a circular section. So, as a result, the aspect ratio of the rectangular horn section increases and the smaller horn has a higher amount of surface area relative to the horn area, which may increase the losses in the horn. Of course - you've also got to make the horn large enough at the mouth end to fit the driver inside.

Certainly - there is more to this than I have the time or desire to go into at the moment.

I've built some tapped horns that were too small, the results weren't pretty.

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post #197 of 585 Old 03-14-2013, 01:31 AM
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OK thanks Mike. My Crest Pro 7200 amp will have to do for four Micros. (1000watts x2 @4ohms or 3300x1 4ohms roughly) Either way thanks. I think I am going to order a few more SWS. Cheap ffordable and soon to be some fun fun fun


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post #198 of 585 Old 03-14-2013, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I didn't say "any tapped horn", I said "this tapped horn".

Now, keep in mind that I'm only a hobbyist when it comes to tapped horn design. I have had no formal training in acoustics or anything like that. My design decisions and processes are purely based on my own experience and empirical results.

For me, designing a tapped horn is a balancing act. The amount of motor force, the driver's cone area, and the area and rate of expansion of the horn all must be balanced appropriately for things to work out according to the model.

All else being equal, in simulation-land, the larger motored drivers (higher BL) tend to want a smaller horn at the throat end in order to achieve a reasonably flat response. That's great, except that in actual use, the driver diameter sets the minimum width of the horn, we're not dealing with a circular section. So, as a result, the aspect ratio of the rectangular horn section increases and the smaller horn has a higher amount of surface area relative to the horn area, which may increase the losses in the horn. Of course - you've also got to make the horn large enough at the mouth end to fit the driver inside.

Certainly - there is more to this than I have the time or desire to go into at the moment.

I've built some tapped horns that were too small, the results weren't pretty.

Thanks for the explanation Mike!! While I am still in the dark on this, there is a bit more light! smile.gif

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post #199 of 585 Old 03-14-2013, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Thanks for the explanation Mike!! While I am still in the dark on this, there is a bit more light! smile.gif

Well - if your path goes anything like mine - the more you learn, the more you will find to learn.....

While I've experienced a moment or two of clarity, I definitely don't have a firm grasp on all of the subtleties of horn and tapped horn design, and I'll be honest, I don't think I ever will.

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post #200 of 585 Old 03-15-2013, 05:13 PM
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hi,

will LAB12 suitable for lilwrecker or microwrecker? i just happen to have LAB12 lying around.

thanks
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post #201 of 585 Old 03-17-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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The Lab12 is not an ideal fit in either of these horns unless the cabinets are a LOT narrower.

That being said, a couple of quick model hacks suggest that using an internal panel width of 13.5" should work out OK if you have some Lab12s and wanted to wanted to use them in either cabinet.

Not a driver I'd recommend though, as there are better driver choices out there that are readily available at lower costs than the Lab12.

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post #202 of 585 Old 03-18-2013, 05:21 PM
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hi lilmike,

thanks for the reply, i guess i need to make use of them for something else, btw im in the process buidling your Anarchy TH, cheers for that smile.gif

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post #203 of 585 Old 03-18-2013, 07:20 PM
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My Alpine was delivered by UPS today. I don't know when I'll get around to making saw dust though.
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post #204 of 585 Old 03-19-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry218 View Post

hi lilmike,

thanks for the reply, i guess i need to make use of them for something else, btw im in the process buidling your Anarchy TH, cheers for that smile.gif

henry

Oh - they'll work fine in either design you mentioned at the internal width I suggested.

If you already have the drivers, that might be an option. Could also use both drivers in a single cabinet, making it closer to 30" wide.

I just would suggest other drivers as a first choice if someone were to be purchasing drivers.

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post #205 of 585 Old 03-19-2013, 02:34 PM
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hi lilmike,

thanks for the further explanation, what kibd of improvement we expecting for 2 lab12 in 30" width cab? i just realised you have not actually release the microwrecker plan smile.gif, as lilwrecker prob abit too big for me, prob microwrecker will be suitable.

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post #206 of 585 Old 03-21-2013, 06:45 AM
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Mike how did you squeeze the hurricane nut/washer between the scalop cut piece and the baffle?

I have been waiting two weeks for my hurricane nuts to get here and think I will just use screws to mount the SWS. I hate waiting. Everything else is done and just waiting to put the top piece on wiring and fire it up.


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post #207 of 585 Old 03-21-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I didn't use hurricanes this time.

I used inserts on this build. These seem to have worked well.

I drilled proper holes (using the driver as a template), then degreased the inserts with a little acetone, then glued them up with a little PL and screwed them into place from the back side of the baffle before I assembled anything. I'll probably use epoxy or poly glue rather than PL next time.

Honestly? I am not 100% sure the inserts are needed, we're working with 3/4" thick material, not 1/2", so there should be ample material for typical screw threads to do their thing.

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post #208 of 585 Old 03-21-2013, 03:42 PM
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I will be just screwing mine in for now. Tired of waiting and want to hear this sub.


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post #209 of 585 Old 03-21-2013, 04:44 PM
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ive got similar problem, couldnt find retailer for the inserts for the anarchy th in sydney, aust (could u believe that!) since its 12mm, im not sure of screws will hold them properly.

im ordering 150pcs from amazon, but it will arrive on april 2
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post #210 of 585 Old 03-21-2013, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow.

I've been to Sydney. It's not exactly a small city...there's even a functional subway system there.

Hard to believe that you couldn't find a local source for these things. They're not exactly "common" here in the states, but I can buy them at several local stores if I need them right now.
Tacoma isn't exactly a huge metropolis either, at under 200,000 people.

Some folks have used zinc self-drilling drywall anchors with success, but I have not ever tried using these.

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