DIY sub to best SVS PC13-Ultra - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,
I am auditioning SVS PC13-Ultra and was wondering if anyone could suggest a DIY setup that could best what I am listening too. I would be willing to spend around $1500 and would prefer ported box style sub. I have done lots of reading and have not found anything specifically to get me heading in the right direction. I do understand that I may get a pretty wide range of answers but anything will be a great help. REW comparisons or data would be appreciated.
Thanks for everyone's time.
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post #2 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 02:09 AM
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http://www.data-bass.com/home is a start for 1500 u could build all types of things that would blow it out of the water

do u want sono tube like the svs or just a regular box, are u building it all your self ?
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post #3 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

Hello all,
I am auditioning SVS PC13-Ultra and was wondering if anyone could suggest a DIY setup that could best what I am listening too. I would be willing to spend around $1500 and would prefer ported box style sub. I have done lots of reading and have not found anything specifically to get me heading in the right direction. I do understand that I may get a pretty wide range of answers but anything will be a great help. REW comparisons or data would be appreciated.
Thanks for everyone's time.

Wait a few weeks and you will get your answer as the SI builds will be coming fast and furious. For way less than $1500.00, you could possibly get all you want and more.

Keep cranking,

Robert
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post #4 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

Wait a few weeks and you will get your answer as the SI builds will be coming fast and furious. For way less than $1500.00, you could possibly get all you want and more.

Keep cranking,

Robert

+1

If you were just a tad felxible with your budget, and you already have your own tools, you could have quad 18's up and running in no time!

Though a single SI 18" compares well against a single PBU.
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post #5 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

+1

If you were just a tad felxible with your budget, and you already have your own tools, you could have quad 18's up and running in no time!

Though a single SI 18" compares well against a single PBU.

+2. Also, the DIY sound group flat packs should be available shortly for the 18" sub setups - these are great options if no tools are available.
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post #6 of 98 Old 01-14-2013, 08:23 PM
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Do you have a size restriction, and are you willing to use a pro amp?

A pair of big ol ported 18"s are within your budget. Even if you want to keep it super simple with a plate amp, you can smoke a PC13.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-809

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=268-354

24" x 25.5" x 36" box for 10 ft3 with a 19 hz tune using the 6" x 17" port. 118 db capability from the single sub, and you can build two under your budget.

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post #7 of 98 Old 01-15-2013, 03:48 AM
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Is IB sub option?

IB will smoke any ported sub and you don't need calender to measure group delay. wink.gif.
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post #8 of 98 Old 01-15-2013, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ile View Post

Is IB sub option?

IB will smoke any ported sub and you don't need calender to measure group delay. wink.gif.

That's a very cult thing to say...lol
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post #9 of 98 Old 01-15-2013, 06:48 AM
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Hi brent,

You can do better on that budget. Design is a function of performance objectives, or what you want to achieve with your sub. Since your building it custom, how the sub performs can be custom.

To get better design advice, define:
  • Room Size
  • What frequency Bandwidth are you interested in covering(How low you wanna go)
  • How much power do you have available(How many 20A lines)
  • How much real estate do you have available for subs
  • How much SPL do you want/need
  • What equipment do you have for integration of multiple subs(AVR(auto EQ), EQ, Measurement Gear, SPL meter?)
  • Room Closed or open


People have put the SVS on a pedestal b/c its a versatile and capable sub. You have the ability to tailor the sub DIY to your room needs personal taste and surpass the SVS's performance, you just gotta decide what you want, which is normally the rub...
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post #10 of 98 Old 01-15-2013, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies. I did not get the email notification. To answer some of the questions:
I am looking to do a ported box. I do have some basic size restrictions but nothing to crazy. I could handle a 8 cu ft box as an example. I also plan to run a pro amp.
I will probably do all the work myself but if a pre-made box was the right price and size I would certainly go that way. I have all the tools I would need.
IB is not an option.


Room Size = 16 x 16 x 7.5 feet
-What frequency Bandwidth are you interested in covering(How low you wanna go) - Below 20hz to 80hz would be fine. My towers can cover above 80.
- How much power do you have available(How many 20A lines) - I currently have 1 20A dedicated for my HT setup. Could add another if needed.
-How much real estate do you have available for subs. - Biggest spot would be 42 wide by 30 high by 30 deep. Would prefer not to use that much but could if I needed.
- How much SPL do you want/need - 105+
-What equipment do you have for integration of multiple subs(AVR(auto EQ), EQ, Measurement Gear, SPL meter?) I have REW with cross spectrum calibrated mic., seperate SPL meter, BFD, and Yamaha RX-A2010.
-Room Closed or open - Room has 2 door openings and a 3 ft half wall but mostly square unfortunately.
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post #11 of 98 Old 01-15-2013, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Also the attributes I like about the SVS PC13-ultra after completing the EQ is how clean and low it can go. I have heard absolutely no distortion at any point. I am pretty flat down to 18hz with good output below 15hz.

I would like to build something with the same characteristics.

Thanks again.
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post #12 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 12:21 AM
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flat down to 18hz isnt that impressive.

Get four Dayton 18HO and call it a day.
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post #13 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I am also being honest. I could say flat to 15hz based on some others definitions. smile.gif
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post #14 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 05:44 AM
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Good, looks like you've done some homework on the topic.

I recommend you download WInISD or some other modeling software to play with whatever "finalist" drivers/alignments you come up with to make your final decision while looking at the curves and manipulating the box/alignment real time.

From your clean and low requirement I would recommend subs with shorting rings in the drive to keep distortion low.

I like the suggestion for an all out system above with the 4 HO18s but I don't think that fits your size requrements. Two could fit into that though and would work nicely.

With a square room I would strongly recommend multiple subs. Your height is actually pretty close to 2X the W and D so I'm sure you have some strong modes to deal with.....

When you say door openings, if they cannot be sealed off, the adjoining rooms become part of your theater b/c its actually all one room from a pressurization standpoint.

You mention you want ported. With ported you will need a high pass filter to roll off signal below tuning. You can approximate a high pass with overlaid filters in the BFD but the BFD can't get below 20 with much usefulness. So if you want to tune below 20 you'll need another EQ like Minidsp so add that into your budget.

For the quality output form factor and budget you described I would be looking at either a TC Ultra 18 or XXX 18. There are both for sale in the classifieds from 600-750 each. If you could manage two of either of those you'd have a good amount of output in a small package(or two).

Two of those subs would need at least one seperate 20A line and two EP4000s or one other large capable amp they are power hogs. One would be doable with your current power and would be hard to beat in a small box for the money.

Does $1500 include amp/EQ/Sub/box/finish/etc?

Try to make these decisions in this approximate order,

Driver/Alignment>Box Design>Power Requirements>EQ

If you have any of the decisions to the right made or done, they will influence the decisions to the left.
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post #15 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 08:06 AM
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Brent_B...to be a somewhat dissenting opinion. You don't have to go nearly as overboard as some are suggesting here to equal/better a PC13.

SPL output is simply a function of displacement...surface area * Xmax. A pair of 12s or a single 15/18 will (should) have more displacement than a single 13.5" Ultra driver and therefore, more output assuming you have enough power to use the displacement. I would echo Nick's recommendation to find a low distortion driver...Dayton's Reference series would be a prime candidate, especially for the budget conscious.

In my own 24x16x9 theater room, my measurements (REW with CSL cal'd EMM-6) say a pair of Dayton RSS315HF-4 drivers meet your requirements as stated (105dB, 15Hz) with only about 300 watts/driver on tap. Alignment is 3.5 ft^3 tuned to ~17Hz via slot port per driver. Running *without* a rumble filter, I've never heard them make a bad noise on real world soundtracks. YMMV.

Final T/S Parms haven't been release yet, but Creative Sound Solutions is getting ready to release the the SDX12. For $520/pair shipped, it's a 12" with XBL^2 motor (low distortion) with 28mm of Xmax. A pair of these should make you very happy when compard to a single PC13U. If CSS' previous 12", the Trio12 had been around when I originally bought my 315HF-4s, I probably would have gone Trio12, FWIW.

-Brent
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post #16 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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My friend has a diy dual 18 sealed setup that I listened too and liked the added pressure it added to the room at the same relative volume levels. It made you feel the movies more smile.gif What I didn't like about it was that it did not get much lower than 26hz but he has another older svs sub that handles the lower stuff. I am flexible with budget. Was hoping to spend less than the 1700$ that I paid for the SVS.

If I do decide to run multiple subs I really only have room to the left and right of my entertainment center. Will this provide enough separation? I do also have 10" powered subs in my towers that I have integrated and are using right now. I have 2 corners that are also available but I don't think they are an option due to the exaggeration of room modes.

I was looking at the iNUKE NU6000DSP which looks like it has cross over and built in PEQ as well as enough power for 2 separate subs if needed. Am I off base of this assessment?

What is a rumble filter?

I do agree that I probably don't need to add 4 high powered subs to the room. I am leaning towards a single 18 or dual 18 depending on what your responses are.

Thanks for everyone's help.
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post #17 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you talking about the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer? I had my eye on this as well as a couple of the dayton subs.
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post #18 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

What is a rumble filter?
.

When a ported box is sent a frequency that is below the box's tuning, the driver no longer has the benefit of the air spring in the box to protect it from over excursion. A rumble/subsonic/highpass filter set just below the tuning point will roll of those frequencies to protect the driver from over excursion.

In reality, as long as one isn't too severely over amp'd, it's not as big a deal as some make it, IMHO and IME. The driver's impedance rises quickly below tuning, limiting the power that can actually be delivered. Most modelling tools assume full power is available into whatever impedance the driver presents when calculating excursion and SPL. So, when you model something like a 315HF-4 with a 300 watt input, excursion quickly exceeds Xmax below tuning. In reality, a 4 ohm nominal driver might present 8ohms or more to the amp at 15Hz so that 300 watt @ 4 ohm amp is only capable of sending the driver something between 150-200 watts at 8 ohms.

Secondly, models are usually only done at worst case scenarios (max power amp rating). I'm pretty sure I have enough power on tap to bottom my drivers below tuning, even with rising impedance, if I tried hard enough. However, real world content combined with my own listening habits have never pushed the drivers to that limit.

As always, YMMV due to preferred playback levels, source material chosen, and amp/driver/alignment choice.

-Brent
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post #19 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

My friend has a diy dual 18 sealed setup that I listened too and liked the added pressure it added to the room at the same relative volume levels. It made you feel the movies more smile.gif What I didn't like about it was that it did not get much lower than 26hz but he has another older svs sub that handles the lower stuff. I am flexible with budget. Was hoping to spend less than the 1700$ that I paid for the SVS.

If I do decide to run multiple subs I really only have room to the left and right of my entertainment center. Will this provide enough separation? I do also have 10" powered subs in my towers that I have integrated and are using right now. I have 2 corners that are also available but I don't think they are an option due to the exaggeration of room modes.

I was looking at the iNUKE NU6000DSP which looks like it has cross over and built in PEQ as well as enough power for 2 separate subs if needed. Am I off base of this assessment?

What is a rumble filter?

I do agree that I probably don't need to add 4 high powered subs to the room. I am leaning towards a single 18 or dual 18 depending on what your responses are.

Thanks for everyone's help.

AFA sealed not having output down low, It really depends on how they are EQed and what room they are in.... In a room which does not provide enough pressure gain to flatten the response you can EQ the midbass down to yield a flat response, but that requires lots of headroom(ie army of sealed subs).

Since you don't seem to have much room gain(your SVS only gets flat to 18) and only building one or two subs, I think your on the right path with ported.

Running at the left and right of the Entertainment center should work ok, but don't count the corners out either so long as you can put a sub in each opposing corner...... I'd try both and measure to see which had the smoothest response. No doubt the corners would provide the strongest response.

The Inukes are solid amps. Prob not enough juice(nu6000) for two TCs or XXXs but prob about right for two HO18s. The dsp on that amp only goes to 20Hz though, same as the BFD.

With the modal issues you are likely to have I would recommend two slightly less expensive drivers which stay within your budget. You still should be able to achieve same output but in a slightly larger package with the benefit of multiple subs.

My recommendation:

4 x Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm = $1000.00(Two per cabinet, ported to 17-20Hz).
1 x Behringer NU6000DSP ~ $425 on ebay
2 x Sheets MDF = $70
Hardware, wire, and finish $100

Total ~$1700. That should hang with a SVS Ultra rolleyes.gif
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post #20 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 02:29 PM
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C'mon man... Just buy my LMS-U's.

They are about as much fun as you can possibly have with your pants on and you will have the bragging rights of owning (what many percieve as) the undisputed king of low distortion high excursion super subs!

Might be a touch over your budget, but just watch this poetry in motion...


Only reason I'm selling is because I couldn't get permission to buy 6 more, not to mention running 3 more dedicated 20amp lines to power the additional amps I would need...

We bass brothers have to help each other out...do me a solid...lol
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post #21 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am getting some help from the room so If I could EQ below 20 hz I could easily be flat down to 15hz but still feel ported will suit me better for HT. Would your recommendation for the HO's be 2 per box with opposing or both front firing? If I went with 4 HO's would I need 2 amps? Also would 2 TC's outperform 4 HO's?
Thanks for the help.
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post #22 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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popalock - That is pretty impressive. Wow. It would not be out of the question budget wise but I am sure shipping would kill me. I am in Oregon 97116.
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post #23 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

popalock - That is pretty impressive. Wow. It would not be out of the question budget wise but I am sure shipping would kill me. I am in Oregon 97116.
Ah man no worries, Austin's a cool guy. Im sure he can ship them to you no problem! biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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haha, what do you think Austin want to ship them for free? J\K
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post #25 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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Haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

C'mon man... Just buy my LMS-U's.

They are about as much fun as you can possibly have with your pants on and you will have the bragging rights of owning (what many percieve as) the undisputed king of low distortion high excursion super subs!

Might be a touch over your budget, but just watch this poetry in motion...


Only reason I'm selling is because I couldn't get permission to buy 6 more, not to mention running 3 more dedicated 20amp lines to power the additional amps I would need...

We bass brothers have to help each other out...do me a solid...lol

Haha i plugged your subs man, he should buy them!!!
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post #26 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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NicksHitachi - I have some questions in post 21 for you. Thanks.
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post #27 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

I am getting some help from the room so If I could EQ below 20 hz I could easily be flat down to 15hz but still feel ported will suit me better for HT. Would your recommendation for the HO's be 2 per box with opposing or both front firing? If I went with 4 HO's would I need 2 amps? Also would 2 TC's outperform 4 HO's?
Thanks for the help.


download winisd http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe real quick easy to learn and then u can see the difference for your self model the ports and such things just dont enter qms let the program enter it for you.
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post #28 of 98 Old 01-16-2013, 04:48 PM
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difference between a single lms and 4 daytons would be about 8db so there's really no reason to even compare them lms isn't a good deal in any way.
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post #29 of 98 Old 01-17-2013, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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What about TC Sounds LMS-R 15"? I filled the info in winisd for vented box with 15 to 20 hz but was getting large spike towards the bottom of the curve. Did I do something wrong?
Thanks.
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post #30 of 98 Old 01-17-2013, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_b_23 View Post

popalock - That is pretty impressive. Wow. It would not be out of the question budget wise but I am sure shipping would kill me. I am in Oregon 97116.

Damn you Oregonians!
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Ah man no worries, Austin's a cool guy. Im sure he can ship them to you no problem! biggrin.gif

Geez.... I bet even PE would cringe having to send out products to Oregon...

I'm a team player, but man...



Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

difference between a single lms and 4 daytons would be about 8db so there's really no reason to even compare them lms isn't a good deal in any way.

Can't really argue with this logic... I've heard the HO's and love them!

Some people like driving Porsche's and some people would rather drive a Vette... Both get you around the track within a few seconds of each other... =)

However, if you are as limited in space as you say you are, then it sounds like you need to get the beefiest, most space efficient subs you can get your hands on...

My only real counter to cookie is:

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