Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" Sealed Build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking of doing a sealed 18" build with the Dayton 18" HO. I want to use either the iNuke 1000 with dsp or the Crown XLS1000.

My only concern is low end output from using a sealed enclosure. I want the in-room response to be fairly flat down to 15hz or so (or as low as possibly really).

Looking at the article about this sealed 18" setup on Data-Bass has me very impressed. I'd basically go with the same configuration as I'd aim for a 4.2 cubic foot to 4.5 cubic foot build. I see the output below 20Hz is very strong, i'm just not sure how it would perform once I place this thing in my room.

I know there may be some natural room gain around 25Hz or so and down, just I don't know how much, or if it would leave me with satisfying output at these lower frequencies.

Can someone with experience with large sealed subs help me out here? Do you think this sealed 18" build will provide satisfying low end frequencies? (Satisfying relative to what i'm using now, a Bic F12 that goes to sleep below 27Hz). Also, will I be able to eq a fairly flat response down to the lower frequencies with the on board eq'ing systems of the amps I mentioned?

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post #2 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 11:06 AM
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depends on how big your room is. how many cubic feet is the total area?

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post #3 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 11:12 AM
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Couple thoughts. If you are interested in infrasonic frequencies, the EP4000 might provide a little more juice down low. There are some varying opinions on this but the crown is reported to be a little lacking under 20 Hz. Side note: would be great to have a site like Data-bass that compared amplifiers for subwoofer use using a constant set of testing criteria.

Also, I did a bunch of modeling for the RSS460HO-4. Granted, this is all theory at this point. It looks like 3.8-4.0 cubic feet is the best blend of extension and power handling. In 4.5 cubic feet it's over the published xmax at 400W and exceeding the as-tested Xmax by 700W. Just something to keep in mind, especially if you want to EQ the low end.
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post #4 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Granted, this is all theory at this point. It looks like 3.8-4.0 cubic feet is the best blend of extension and power handling. In 4.5 cubic feet it's over the published xmax at 400W and exceeding the as-tested Xmax by 700W. Just something to keep in mind, especially if you want to EQ the low end.

What are you using for Xmax?

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post #5 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 12:44 PM
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I think the xmax on these is a bit underrated. You could probably get another 3-4mm out of it with no problem.

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post #6 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 01:10 PM
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Josh Ricci has said a few times that 20mm or so is probably a safe place to be and it seems to hold true. I also mimic the comment on box size though. I have two finished right now to play with while I finish my others. They are each in there own 3.75 ft3 net enclosure and I've pumped 1250w or so through them with the CV5000 and had great results. I have yet to hear a nasty sound from them, though I do have to admit then when they get moving pretty good, I get nervous. The question on room size is still out there too. I found a single and a thousand watts lacking in about 3400ft3 room. Doubling the drivers and the power (a little more than double) made a huge difference in my opinion.
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post #7 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Room size is about 2200 cubic foot. I'm not looking to pressurize this space too much, as my downstairs neighbors may not like it. I just want clean, super deep bass. When I get a house in the next few years or so I have full intentions of going with a multi-sub setup with tons of spl. Also I agree that the xmax is very conservative from everything I've read on it. Many people seem to say 20mm is more realistic.

The ep4000 appears to cost a bit more then I'm wanting to spend right now. And the added power may be nice, but will only tempt me.

I'm currently running my Bic F12 very lightly. I can't imagine I ever let it get beyond 90db on the loudest LFE tracks I play on it. At most I can feel very faint vibrations in my floor a few feet away with ~30Hz LFE. This is while running my receiver at -28 or so on the volume.

So do you think a this sub in a sealed 4.0 cubic ft box will provide me with adequate bass on down to around 16Hz?

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post #8 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Room size is about 2200 cubic foot. I'm not looking to pressurize this space too much, as my downstairs neighbors may not like it. I just want clean, super deep bass. When I get a house in the next few years or so I have full intentions of going with a multi-sub setup with tons of spl. Also I agree that the xmax is very conservative from everything I've read on it. Many people seem to say 20mm is more realistic.

The ep4000 appears to cost a bit more then I'm wanting to spend right now. And the added power may be nice, but will only tempt me.

I'm currently running my Bic F12 very lightly. I can't imagine I ever let it get beyond 90db on the loudest LFE tracks I play on it. At most I can feel very faint vibrations in my floor a few feet away with ~30Hz LFE. This is while running my receiver at -28 or so on the volume.

So do you think a this sub in a sealed 4.0 cubic ft box will provide me with adequate bass on down to around 16Hz?

I would imagine that in that size space and with your realistic expectations, you would be quite happy. If you are anywhere near CT, you are welcome to come by and check mine out..Heck if you're close enough for a reasonable drive I'll let you try it out in your own room. I can't speak for the amps you listed and must admit that I am fairly new to manipulating response myself, but am learning as I go. If you are looking to be in the 90db range, I can't imagine you'd be dissapointed. Based on some of the tests done, I'd bet you would be easily mid 90s at 16hz or so and only jump from there, depending on lp and the help you get from the room/boundaries etc. Check out data bass for some measurements and more info.
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post #9 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I would imagine that in that size space and with your realistic expectations, you would be quite happy. If you are anywhere near CT, you are welcome to come by and check mine out..Heck if you're close enough for a reasonable drive I'll let you try it out in your own room. I can't speak for the amps you listed and must admit that I am fairly new to manipulating response myself, but am learning as I go. If you are looking to be in the 90db range, I can't imagine you'd be dissapointed. Based on some of the tests done, I'd bet you would be easily mid 90s depending on lp and the help you get from the room/boundaries etc. Check out data bass for some measurements and more info.

+1. The fact that the OP is stepping up from a Bic F12 to this sub... Should be a very noticeable difference in terms of extension and output.

The iNuke 1000dsp, in bridge more, should give you enough output but if you ever have plans to add a second, the 1000dsp is not going to cut it to power both. I would buy it from a place that has a good return policy (like Amazon) and give it a shot.
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post #10 of 64 Old 01-18-2013, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the offer ChopShop, but I'm probably a couple of layovers away from CT.

I'm leaning more towards the Crown amp as It's quieter. Is this a good idea or should I go with the iNuke and simply do the fan mod to quieten it down?

Thanks for the help guys. I'm more confident now that I'll be satisfied(hopefully for a while at least) with this new sub.

My next task is figuring out if my Denon 791 has enough juice from the LFE out to feed the pro amp.

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post #11 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well guys. I built the enclosure this past weekend and ordered the driver, amp, and a few remaining items last night. Should put it all together soon hopefully.

I ended up building a 4.6 cubic ft enclosure with minimal bracing. I want to hear what it sounds like with this minimal bracing and possibly compare it to having more bracing. I plan to fight resonances with pillows. And I can't imagine the 3/4" birch ply actually flexing from internal pressures, as it didn't budge with me pushing my knee into the panel. (Figured my knee simulated about 80psi or so, can't imagine a I will get anywhere near that sort of pressure from the sub)

The size of this thing is..awesomely huge. Especially compared to my Bic F12. I could almost put my F12 through the cutout.

Now I just need to wait for the rest of the items I ordered..

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post #12 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 06:34 AM
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post #13 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 07:47 AM
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Hahaha...just made my day.

Good choice Louquid. You should enjoy it for sure. As far as the bracing goes, I am firmly in the overkill crowd. At the very least, I install bracing so that there is never a span of more than 8" without bracing. My last two subs have no more than 6.5" without bracing. Overkill for sure, but gives you peace of mind.
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post #14 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha. I will have to wait until later to put more pics. But here is the product so far. I still have to round some edges out a bit for the cutout, but for the most part i'm ready to see how it sounds.

As for bracing, I mostly just want to see if I can see actual improvements from added bracing. Just to get a better understanding of the "why". I have a very small amount of bracing right now as you can see.


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post #15 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

As far as the bracing goes, I am firmly in the overkill crowd. .

I would agree with this. Bracing is cheap and easy; no reason to skip this step. There is a difference between physical bowing and panel flex, enough to introduce resonance. Just because you can't push a panel in with your knee doesn't mean it is properly braced. You're there, do it now. smile.gif

Edit: Just saw your pic. You will certainly benefit from some additional bracing.

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post #16 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

What are you using for Xmax?

Well 13mm is as published but I was counting 18mm as tested.... Even with 18mm I feel like 4.5 cubic feet is too large.
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post #17 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I would agree with this. Bracing is cheap and easy; no reason to skip this step. There is a difference between physical bowing and panel flex, enough to introduce resonance. Just because you can't push a panel in with your knee doesn't mean it is properly braced. You're there, do it now. smile.gif

Edit: Just saw your pic. You will certainly benefit from some additional bracing.

I'm sure I could benefit from some more bracing. Just I don't know what I'll will benefit as I have no experience with a poorly braced enclosure vs. a properly braced one. I have plenty of scrap wood and can easily add the bracing, but I want to see the benefit of bracing in practical application rather than just theory alone.

I also understand that my internal volume will be reduced with more bracing also, so I'm for more bracing in terms of xmax.

In the event that I do add bracing (which will happen), how should I go about this? The 8" spacing between bracing rule?

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post #18 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I'm sure I could benefit from some more bracing. Just I don't know what I'll will benefit as I have no experience with a poorly braced enclosure vs. a properly braced one. I have plenty of scrap wood and can easily add the bracing, but I want to see the benefit of bracing in practical application rather than just theory alone.
In the picture below the colored squares are panel to panel braces, viewed end-on. The red brace alone has the same effect as doubling the panel thickness, adding the blue braces has the same effect as quadrupling the panel thickness:
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I plan to fight resonances with pillows.
Damping is used to prevent internal midrange reflections, stuffing is used to lower the Q of a sealed box. Neither does anything to stop low frequency resonances.

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post #19 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:46 AM
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Well 13mm is as published but I was counting 18mm as tested.... Even with 18mm I feel like 4.5 cubic feet is too large.

I know its splitting hairs, but I think the safety zone seems to be anywhere up to 20mm. Mine modeled to about 22mm before I built them, and running the same power as modeled performance is fantastic. I do agree though that 4.5 is kinda large.
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post #20 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, cool. What audible difference would the bracing make? Would there be a difference between using only the red brace vs. using all braces pictured?

I guess I mistook reflections for resonances in terms of damping. I just know that sticking my head into the box and talking creates alot of reflective sound. Quite unpleasent to hear. I'm only assuming the pillows would help with the reflections. (I could be completely off base with this entire sentence here.)

Also, I've read that bracing is used for distortion control, is this correct?

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post #21 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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What would be a more appropriate size then? Is 3.8 to 4.0 still recommended? I don't think I'd have any trouble reducing the volume when adding bracing. But again I don't plan on pushing this thing anywhere close to xmax. But I should rather be safe than sorry.

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post #22 of 64 Old 01-21-2013, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

What would be a more appropriate size then? Is 3.8 to 4.0 still recommended? I don't think I'd have any trouble reducing the volume when adding bracing. But again I don't plan on pushing this thing anywhere close to xmax. But I should rather be safe than sorry.

I would stick with that size. For bracing you don't need anything elaborate here. Scrap MDF of plywood works fine cut into 2-3" wide strips.
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post #23 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 12:36 PM
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I've never heard any increase or difference using more than the two points Bill stated.

So as not to be amp limited, doesn't he use a Crest 8002 to get those numbers on data-bass?
Not sure if a 1000 would be enough for a pair.
I would recommend you save for the 3000dsp; unless you enjoy reselling used amps at cost.
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post #24 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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"Enough" is a relative term here. It may not be enough for you but I'm sure it would be enough for me. At least for now. And I don't think anyone enjoys losing money reselling used gear. (Did I detect condescension? lol)

I could easily buy the 3000dsp now, but I would never be able to put it to use. Well I could, just not for long. lol. Downstairs neighbors may not appreciate it.

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post #25 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I would stick with that size. For bracing you don't need anything elaborate here. Scrap MDF of plywood works fine cut into 2-3" wide strips.

I would just be carefull with excursion with any real power in 4.5cubes.
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post #26 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 03:29 PM
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I would just be carefull with excursion with any real power in 4.5cubes.

No you don't. 1,000w will still be rather comfortable throughout the bandwidth. One thousand watts is certainly 'real power', imho. 2,000w would be pushing it though. wink.gif

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post #27 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 03:57 PM
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I'm just trying to save you money in the long term. I have resold 4 amps at cost myself, because they were too weak.

The 1000dsp only does 300w x 2 into 4-ohm, that is barely enough for a single dual-opposed box or a pair.

Scott say's they can handle 1000watts a piece into 4-ohm.

I've powered 10watt tweeters with 8000watt amps before, it works you just have to turn down the volume knob until you get your new home.

Otherwise you may find yourself buying twice and reselling the first.

Depending on how loud you like your bass; I mean either amp will output enough to hit 90db at least.
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post #28 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 04:11 PM
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No you don't. 1,000w will still be rather comfortable throughout the bandwidth. One thousand watts is certainly 'real power', imho. 2,000w would be pushing it though. wink.gif

Something must be wrong in my winisd then because its showing me 25mm peak with 1k watts in 4.5 cubes. Its entirely possible cause its been quite finicky for me. If he can do that, great!
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post #29 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 04:13 PM
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Something must be wrong in my winisd then because its showing me 25mm peak with 1k watts in 4.5 cubes. Its entirely possible cause its been quite finicky for me. If he can do that, great!

Ricci pushed these to ~30mm. Also, how often are you going to be at that full power peak? They are called peaks for a reason. wink.gif

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post #30 of 64 Old 01-22-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Ricci pushed these to ~30mm. Also, how often are you going to be at that full power peak? They are called peaks for a reason. wink.gif

You're alright.

Wow, I hadn't realized that he pushed them that far...maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. I thought he said 20mm was safe operating, but if its that much higher, fantastic. It appears winisd is working for me then. I know you don't use them at peak very often or sustained, just a safety guy. Thanks
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