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post #61 of 86 Old 02-04-2013, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much. If I can't find a problem with wiring, I will next ask which points to measure with the meter on crossovers.
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post #62 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 04:56 AM
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With regards to the tweeter needing to be reversed polarity, how does a person determine when a driver needs to be out of phase to sounds right or work right in a particular build? Is this something that the manufacture recommends?
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post #63 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 04:56 AM
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With regards to the tweeter needing to be reversed polarity, how does a person determine when a driver needs to be out of phase to sounds right or work right in a particular build? Is this something that the manufacture recommends?
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post #64 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 08:07 AM
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Thank you so much. If I can't find a problem with wiring, I will next ask which points to measure with the meter on crossovers.

I'd measure across the inductors and resistors. Caps should give you infinity (999 ohms). Inductors about 0.4ohms. Resistors which ever value they are. I can't figure out why one of your speakers would be 8.3ohms. Maybe measure the drivers themselves too. If one of the woofers measures a couple ohms higher than the other, maybe there's an issue with one of the woofers.

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With regards to the tweeter needing to be reversed polarity, how does a person determine when a driver needs to be out of phase to sounds right or work right in a particular build? Is this something that the manufacture recommends?

It's to do with the cross over design and phase. To get the drivers to align at the cross over, you need the drivers to be in phase. This means they can be in phase and hook them both up positive. Or 180 degrees out of phase, and then reverse the tweeter polarity to bring them in phase. The resultant phase comes from the acoustic alignment of the drivers (how deep the horn is and how deep the woofer is) as well as the cross over slopes themselves.
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post #65 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd measure across the inductors and resistors. Caps should give you infinity (999 ohms). Inductors about 0.4ohms. Resistors which ever value they are. I can't figure out why one of your speakers would be 8.3ohms. Maybe measure the drivers themselves too. If one of the woofers measures a couple ohms higher than the other, maybe there's an issue with one of the woofers.

So I should measure impedance on the leads to the drivers with them disconnected from the crossover, and they should measure in ohms as whatever Eminence has for the 12A, and whatever B&C has for the DE250?

 

Can I measure at the outputs of a given crossover: LF or HF and expect so many ohms? 

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post #66 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 10:13 AM
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If you check the drivers after the cross over, you should get about 6 ohm for the delta 10a. Maybe less. I can't recall what Re is. For the DNA-350 you should get 6.6 ohms. Or quite close to that. If you measure the output of the cross over you're just measuring the drivers.

If you measure the input of the cross overs with the drivers connected, you should get about 6 ohms for the woofer (low pass) cross over and infinity for the tweeter (high pass) cross over. This is because the low pass is the DCR of both coils (quite low) plus the woofer Re. For the high pass it's blocked by the cap, so infinity.

Have you tried listening to one and the other speaker in mono? Maybe hook it up to your center channel. If there's a defective woofer, it may be noticable.
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post #67 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I measured again and both were 5.8 ohms.

I'm going to listen to them for a while before opening again.
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post #68 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 07:00 PM
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Ok that sounds right. Hopefully the polarity is now fixed and the mic was to close for the SPL test.

Good luck.
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post #69 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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These are fantastic speakers!
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post #70 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 08:59 PM
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These are fantastic speakers!

Rock on man! biggrin.gif
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post #71 of 86 Old 02-05-2013, 09:01 PM
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These are fantastic speakers!
Tell us more!

You got them working properly? And they're every bit as good as you'd hoped??

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #72 of 86 Old 02-06-2013, 06:37 AM
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What a tease biggrin.gif
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post #73 of 86 Old 02-06-2013, 05:21 PM
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What a tease biggrin.gif

He's too busy listening to them to report back. Don't blame him. wink.gif
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post #74 of 86 Old 02-06-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha, sorry for the delay. I've had big messes and trashes from the speaker construction over the past couple weeks. Sawdust, tools, clamps that must be gathered up and matched with their receipts to return to the netherworld I had the misfortune to purchase them from.

 

I have been listening, so far more films like Casino Royale, and Iron Man 2, and some TV the last three nights with the wife, but also running REW sweeps. So tired of the sweeps tonight! And I'm sure my wife is too, bless her heart. redface.gif

 

I've enjoyed what I've been listening to. I feel like I want to run the subs hotter, but then when I measure I'm surprised to see it like 8dB hot, and I back it down. I might be trying to overcome a mid-bass null with the subs.

I'll post some graphs later.

 

I come back to what is sounding cliché now with people's SEOS speakers: 

  • Wall of sound
  • A clarity I'm not used to
  • Effortless volume
    it's easy to be at -5, sounds closer to a commercial movie theater with good sound, where it'll be more in your face.
    But previously with the Paradigms I would have been wincing and lowering it back down to -10 or -12 for sure. 

 

Measurement Schmeasurement

In measuring I worry about the dip at 1,600 hz (about 1,100 to 1,900). I was concerned that was the crossover dip I was measuring 2 feet away the other night. 

But when I moved the speakers elsewhere in the room, the dip wasn't so bad. And then when I swapped in Paradigm Titans, they had the same dip. The Fusions have an 1,100hz crossover I think, so either I screwed something up in the crossover construction, or the dip I'm seeing is totally unrelated. I'd think about measuring outside, but 10 degrees....
 

So that bears more investigation later. 

 

The impedance measurement....I don't know how I got over 8 ohms on one speaker before...I'm sorry about that. Maybe the meter didn't settle yet? Maybe not enough contact with the meter leads?

I'm not sure what would make 5.8 ohms instead of 6.3...is it some poor solder points, or stranded speaker wire giving way at some connection? For instance, the wire that comes from the wall for the right speaker...as I disconnected and reconnected last night, 2/3 the strands broke off.  I'd like to say "These SEOS speakers blew apart my 14 gauge wires!" but it's simply had too much strain over the past years. 

 

Acoustics

I'm frustrated by my seating position. About half-way back in a 24' long room is not ideal. 11.5' wide from drywall to drywall and a 109" screen doesn't leave much room for speakers.

Some to-do projects are: 

  • False wall for screen with absorption (I have no corner traps or front-wall panels yet...just some side panels).
    Maybe with this great controlled directivity, I should consider removing some of the side wall panels and move them to front and back? It's been a year since I did ETC analysis and played with the placement of panels and tried to eliminate early reflections, so it might be time to do that again. I think others have said these speakers could use more rear wall treatment (or diffusion if I went that route).
     
  • That would allow the front speakers out into the room more. Getting them out of the corners makes some peaks and dips go away, but it reintroduces others.
    What was striking today is when I did something for the first time: I moved them towards the center of the room (x-axis) where they might be placed behind a screen. Measured WAY flatter! 
    Also, when they were in pulled from front-wall-one-foot mode (z-axis), I stuffed blankets and pillows back there. This also improved a bunch of dips and peaks. 
     
  • I'd like to change the position of my riser for the second row of seats to yield a smoother response for the front row.

 

As you guys know, playing with this stuff eats up a lot of time, so that's where part of last night and most of tonight went. 

I guess I'm saying: it's like having a new sports car and now I'm more picky about the roads to drive it on.

 

Tomorrow is U2, Eagles, Norah Jones. 

 

I Love These Speakers

The SEOS Fusion-10 Max are jaw dropping for us, and they blow away the local theater (or anybody's system I've heard) in every respect. 

 

I was concerned about not having the center speaker, but for now I have no worries: seamless horizontal pans; dialogue, instruments, and effects locked onto the screen and centered or left-of-center or wherever they need to be.
It works great, and it's better than when I had a dedicated center speaker under the screen. I've "Waslo'd" or "Parham'd" the speakers so they crossfire, and I used the meter to make sure that my wife's and my seats get a decibel or so more volume out of the farther speaker for time-intensity-trading. Fun stuff!

 

I'm using a tenth of the power I was previously...or less, because not only are these speakers more than 10dB more sensitive, but I have dropped the center speaker for now. So just using the receiver alone, I'm sure I could go to +10. Or, I should say, the system could do this...not sure I can. These are crazy sensitive, and if for some reason I needed more out of 'em, I could find a used Parasound or get an XPA-3 or something. But really, I'm kind of embarrassed having speakers this capable as it is. They're loafing in my room as I sit 12 feet away. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for much larger rooms like the 2,000 ft^2 and larger spaces some people need to fill. 

 

I no longer feel like the speakers are holding me back. Maybe my ears, or the source material, and definitely the subs and the room itself...but not these speakers. "Front sound-stage: check!" 
And that's a good feeling indeed.

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post #75 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 05:07 AM
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Glad you are enjoying them! I may have missed in a previous post, but do you have any room treatments? Playing with speaker and listening position can vary the response a great deal. I noticed the same when moving my SEOS pair around the other night. cool.gif
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post #76 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Ugh yours have to be another 30% heavier than mine.

Room treatments: six x 2“ thick 2' x 4' panels on side walls. I played moving two of the panels to be next to or behind speakers.

No bass traps.

EQ is BFD for subs and the original MCACC in receiver which gives one 125hz, 250hz, 4khz, 13khz.
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post #77 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 06:19 AM
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I Love These Speakers



The SEOS Fusion-10 Max are jaw dropping for us, and they blow away the local theater (or anybody's system I've heard) in every respect. 

I was concerned about not having the center speaker, but for now I have no worries: seamless horizontal pans; dialogue, instruments, and effects locked onto the screen and centered or left-of-center or wherever they need to be.

It works great, and it's better than when I had a dedicated center speaker under the screen. I've "Waslo'd" or "Parham'd" the speakers so they crossfire, and I used the meter to make sure that my wife's and my seats get a decibel or so more volume out of the farther speaker for time-intensity-trading. Fun stuff!

I'm using a tenth of the power I was previously...or less, because not only are these speakers more than 10dB more sensitive, but I have dropped the center speaker for now. So just using the receiver alone, I'm sure I could go to +10. Or, I should say, the system could do this...not sure I can. These are crazy sensitive, and if for some reason I needed more out of 'em, I could find a used Parasound or get an XPA-3 or something. But really, I'm kind of embarrassed having speakers this capable as it is. They're loafing in my room as I sit 12 feet away. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them for much larger rooms like the 2,000 ft^2 and larger spaces some people need to fill. 

I no longer feel like the speakers are holding me back. Maybe my ears, or the source material, and definitely the subs and the room itself...but not these speakers. "Front sound-stage: check!" 

And that's a good feeling indeed.


Don't forget to put that in the review on the site! biggrin.gif
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post #78 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't forget to put that in the review on the site! biggrin.gif

Done!

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post #79 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 08:32 AM
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Ugh yours have to be another 30% heavier than mine.

Room treatments: six x 2“ thick 2' x 4' panels on side walls. I played moving two of the panels to be next to or behind speakers.

No bass traps.

EQ is BFD for subs and the original MCACC in receiver which gives one 125hz, 250hz, 4khz, 13khz.

Yeah, I was quickly reminded of their "girth" last night when I was putting them up on the new speaker stands I built.

Your treatments are similar to mine, except my wall treatments are 4" thick and I have a few corner bass traps as well. I discovered that I still have a bit of work to do around getting the room corrected. I'll probably start with the ceiling next and then move to putting heavier drapes around the windows. The bass region seems to be pretty solid now, I just need to work on the mid to high bands.
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post #80 of 86 Old 02-07-2013, 08:44 AM
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Wow, great to here all of your thoughts on these Eyleron! Glad you're enjoying them.

The 8.3ohms you read was probably just a bad connection or what ever, like you say. Don't worry about it. They measure the same now so that cool. If the mic was only 2' away, that might explain the dip. These larger speakers need the mic as far away as possible. When that close, a few inches up or down can put you in a null. That's probably what was happening. If you still get one at the LP, let's do some more detective work. I'm thinking it's all good though. And the fact your paradigms got it to, could be a speaker position thing, but who knows, that's weird.

Looking forward to what your finishing work in the spring. Enjoy the speakers. And thanks for documenting it all. I think these kits are great for first time DIY'ers, but probably find them intimidating. Especially the cross over. So your mistakes will hopefully keep other people out of trouble.
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post #81 of 86 Old 02-27-2013, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Missing Bass

I have roll-off at 100 Hz.

Tuxedocivic said that although the raw response in the graph is to 100hz, with a ported design as I have, it should expect to 55 Hz.

I had tried removing the polyfil, leaving the foam, which didn't change the bass response (when I ran sweeps sans subs).

He suggests that the remaining foam, if closed-cell, could be eating up the cabinet volume. I calculate that I could be losing a cubic foot of volume. 

I'll measure again and compare to other speakers and try different positions without subs, and I'll pull out foam from one speaker to see what's up.

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post #82 of 86 Old 02-27-2013, 02:15 PM
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1 cubic foot is a lot! It that foam is hurting things, that could be part of it. Essentially a sealed box.

100hz isn't bad if you have room help at 80hz, but sounds like you don't.
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post #83 of 86 Old 02-28-2013, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Soo...
I measured more and realized that because my range was limited to 500 hz, it made it look like the speakers were down at ~100 hz, when really the response was elevated at 150 hz and 250 hz. AND there is a big dip centered at 65 hz, which pulled the response down when measuring only the mains without subs.

Measuring to 20khz made it obvious, as did turning off my ancient version of MCACC which only has bands of 40hz, 150hz, 250hz, 4khz, and 13khz. There were big boosts at 150 and 250,

Interestingly, it was hard to avoid the drop at 65hz...i had to move speakers way into the room. And I was wrong about the Paradigms. I was remembering from before the last MCACC run, which i made worse by trying to correct neighboring frequency dips without looking at the big picture. I think I had too much smoothing on the graphs the other week, too, which I know Tuxedocivic wouldn't like.

Oh, and the foam I yanked out of one speaker was open cell...I was able to respirate through it just fine and response didn't change much...just more ringing at higher freqs.

I think I'm so afraid I messed up something I am crying wolf too soon.

Oh well, I have a flatter response now and I know I need a newer receiver sooner wink.gif
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post #84 of 86 Old 03-01-2013, 09:04 AM
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I think I'm so afraid I messed up something I am crying wolf too soon.

Hey, it doesn't hurt to ask. It's part of DIY.

Glad everything sorta worked out. Sounds like your room doesn't like 65hz. If using multi subs I'd recommend crossing above 65hz, no matter the speaker. If you had a mode there to help you, then you could cross lower, but in this case you're going to have to rely on the spreading effect of multi subs. But you can measure so you can find the perfect spot anyways smile.gif
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post #85 of 86 Old 03-01-2013, 10:06 AM
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yea my room isnt perfect it has a awesome null at 85 Hz and it has a very strange resonance in the 250-400 HZ range. i actually thought that was something i did, but its there with the fusion 10s the tempests and the DIYs i got from MTG90 this summer

it does not actually show up in a sweep which scared me

i hope the dual daytons can smooth out the null. not sure what i can do about the room
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post #86 of 86 Old 03-01-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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My wife just shakes her head when she comes downstairs and I'm in the midst of running sweeps, jogging to front of room, re-position speaker, running the sweep again.

And then, the best part-- seeing rolled bales of insulation, blankets, and pillows stacked up in corners, or a 2" absorption panel strangely straddling a corner. 

 

It's amazing how much difference it can make on the graph. What does puzzle me is when I add corner absorption and I see at some frequencies the graph get more ragged with increased peaks/valleys. 

 

I just need to start with some front corner traps behind the two speakers, and work towards building a screen wall. 

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