JBL has a new waveguide, claims 'neutral' off-axis response - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been watching the press releases from Crown and Harman - expecting some new Crown amps to be introduced - when I ran into this. Looks like JBL has a new waveguide, and they are saying it covers 800hz-40,000hz used in conjunction with a new (presumably coaxial) compression driver called the 'D2'. JBL claims it retains constant directivity AND 'neutral response' - which I take to mean 'something close to flat' - through the whole frequency spectrum. It looks radical, any thoughts? The whole speaker is lustworthy either way, and perhaps worth studying for some future DIY builds?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454077/jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor


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post #2 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 12:59 PM
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WG reminds me of this one from Klip...


Wonder if JBL is using a BMS or similar coaxial driver?

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post #3 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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JBL's 'D2' compression driver is new. It's not clear to me from reading JBL's copy if it is truly coaxial but there is a press release and I can't figure out what else it would be. http://www.jblpro.com/press/Jan12/JBL_WinterNAMM_D2.html


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WG reminds me of this one from Klip...


Wonder if JBL is using a BMS or similar coaxial driver?

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post #4 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 01:55 PM
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That is definitely interesting. IMO the waveguide is bizarre and ugly looking. I'd like to see measurements and some more technical details. The compression driver looks similar to BMS coaxial compression drivers. I wonder if JBL is licensing it or if it is their own tech. They have used BMS and licensed their tech before.
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post #5 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 02:07 PM
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Looks pretty thin, and the vertical axis from the picture seems it might be too high dispersion for HT, but that is just presumption.

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post #6 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 02:22 PM
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There's more detail in the downloads on the JBL site.

explore the music
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post #7 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The press release discusses surround-sound configurations being available. I don't know if you can tell that much from a photo, as a photographer I know different lenses can compress or expand the apparent depth. JBL is being pretty clear what the intended use is with this quote: “We feel the M2 Master Reference Monitor will be a game changer, which for the first time, makes a big, detailed world-class monitoring experience a viable option for artist studios, mastering facilities, small mix stages and screening rooms.” That's why I figure, might want to study if for HT use if their engineers really got the balance right and have something going on with that waveguide.
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Looks pretty thin, and the vertical axis from the picture seems it might be too high dispersion for HT, but that is just presumption.

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post #8 of 30 Old 01-24-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

That is definitely interesting. IMO the waveguide is bizarre and ugly looking. I'd like to see measurements and some more technical details. The compression driver looks similar to BMS coaxial compression drivers. I wonder if JBL is licensing it or if it is their own tech. They have used BMS and licensed their tech before.

I read on another board (perhaps the Lansing board?) from somebody 'in the know' that JBL has licensed BMS technology for these.
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post #9 of 30 Old 03-07-2013, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I've been watching the press releases from Crown and Harman - expecting some new Crown amps to be introduced - when I ran into this. Looks like JBL has a new waveguide, and they are saying it covers 800hz-40,000hz used in conjunction with a new (presumably coaxial) compression driver called the 'D2'. JBL claims it retains constant directivity AND 'neutral response' - which I take to mean 'something close to flat' - through the whole frequency spectrum. It looks radical, any thoughts? The whole speaker is lustworthy either way, and perhaps worth studying for some future DIY builds?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454077/jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor



I missed this first time around,...interesting. I'd like to hear them.

This waveguide looks new, but not entirely unique. I really like their AE series, two way 12's and 15's. It's an permanent install line, and they're tremendous. What's funny is the Synthesis branded audiophile stuff, costs a fortune. But one can nearly get the same performance from the AE line. The waveguides in the AE line are very similar to that of the "new" master-reference-monitor rolleyes.gif

Here's the perm install line. These have been around a few years. Anyway, they've been experimenting with various waveguides/coverages, etc.



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post #10 of 30 Old 03-07-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

WG reminds me of this one from Klip...

....which I believe they have a patent on:

http://www.google.com/patents/US7686129?dq=ininventor:%22Rogelio+Delgado,+Jr.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oGA5UafTM8H90gGO5oGYAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ

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post #11 of 30 Old 03-07-2013, 10:08 PM
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it looks ok and probably sounds great.

the biggest advantage for the horn is that it doesn't look like the horns on the ae line (for marketing purposes).

they loosened up the compliance on the driver so that it could be pushed "full range" and who knows, maybe picked up a little bit of low level detail.

the downside is that it is an active system that requires itech 5000hd or macrotech ma5000i/bss processor amps, one for each speaker so that is something like $10,000 for a pair of dsp amps. not sure what the speakers cost, but the whole package is probably in the $20k ball park.

a pair of actively crossed 4722's with a lower tuning would probably be just as good in most ways and better in some.

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post #12 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it looks ok and probably sounds great.

the biggest advantage for the horn is that it doesn't look like the horns on the ae line (for marketing purposes).

they loosened up the compliance on the driver so that it could be pushed "full range" and who knows, maybe picked up a little bit of low level detail.

the downside is that it is an active system that requires itech 5000hd or macrotech ma5000i/bss processor amps, one for each speaker so that is something like $10,000 for a pair of dsp amps. not sure what the speakers cost, but the whole package is probably in the $20k ball park.

a pair of actively crossed 4722's with a lower tuning would probably be just as good in most ways and better in some.

Great point, as the 4722 is one of the absolute steals in all of audio, IMO.

However, there's a level of refinement that I suspect is missing. Admittedly, from merely a theoretical speculation viewpoint. But I'd believe in the areas of diffractive issues, cabinet borne energy, horn excitation and subsequent release, all those subtle time smearing elements can't be good. Again, pure conjecture, and the realm of minimizing the last nnth of detail robbing release of energy via an entirely inert platform.

I know AVS'er Not has these, and I trust his thoughts without reservation. Extracting the last bit out of a design is where the expense comes in, I get it. These 4722s get you a long way into high performance. The price/performance ratio gets out of whack quickly when attempting to extract more. In high end audio, and the truly disgusting prices therein, there are some valid attempts to entirely eliminate any cabinet contribution whatsoever. Some OB, and electrostat approaches address these issues by not going there in the first place, but again they introduce their own compromises.

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post #13 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 10:27 AM
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The biggest issues with the 4722 are the drivers. They are middle of the road which isn't bad relative to most HT stuff, but they are the weak link. Assuming the JBL coax is similar to the BMS coax it is a pretty nice step up from the 4722's CD. A 4722 with a BMS coax and better woofers would be pretty nice. It also wouldn't be tough to improve the woofer box.

We also don't really know much about that horn. It does have the "pinch" in the throat similar to the square PT and OA horns, but I don't think they are very similar beyond that. It looks like JBL has put a priority on off-axis response with this one. There is now more marketing material on their site.

The real news here is that JBL seems to be ditching the bi-radial horn with supertweeter for a more conical or PT-esque horn with a coax. IMO, ditching the supertweeter has been long overdue. I wonder if they will go this route on their next gen K2 and Everest's. It might be tougher to market a CD without exotic materials. Maybe BMS can make them a diaphragm out of Be or Mg.
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post #14 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 10:29 AM
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Tech_R5.jpg

Here is the chart showing how the M2 works in a room (no specifics on this theoretical room of course).

It is interesting that they are doing this though. IMO, this is the bread and butter of sound reproduction. It is interesting how they quantify it. I'd love to see a whitepaper with more depth.
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post #15 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 03:21 PM
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First off, that chart is phenomenal .. fwiw.

I've not read any off the website.

Anyone familiar with which individual within the organization is behind this effort?

I've spent time listening to the Atlas (Be, dual 10" Synthesis line), I was underwhelmed. It was a good room, high end all around, set-up w/ARCOS supervised by Voecks, .. and I got the sweetspot for the entire 45min demo. Disappointing... but who knows what was at play there.

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post #16 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Tech_R5.jpg



It is interesting that they are doing this though. IMO, this is the bread and butter of sound reproduction. It is interesting how they quantify it. I'd love to see a whitepaper with more depth.

"Listening Window" - What would that be? 20 degrees (10 degrees L&R)? Fairly flat for a listening window. I can't help but wonder if these would sound bright? Freakishly flat though eek.gif
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post #17 of 30 Old 03-08-2013, 04:52 PM
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FOH, I don't know anything more than what is on JBLs site. I think something must have been off on your demo of the Synthesis stuff. I've only heard the K2 and Everest and I enjoyed both but neither was an extended critical session.

It is an interesting chart if for no reason other than that most don't provide that type of thing. It more or less looks like a 90deg directivity graph. For me it is more the acknowledgment that the speaker and room interaction is vital to understand and design around. I typically see either an obsession over the speakers alone or the room alone. Trumping all of that is how they interact.

Tux, this is an active system only so the tuning of the HF would be user determined based on the room. It wouldn't surprise me if this was just set flat on axis for charting purposes.
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post #18 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 11:30 AM
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Why couldn't the more affordable XTi series amps be used?

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post #19 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 11:50 AM
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Why couldn't the more affordable XTi series amps be used?
You definitely could but these are a flagship speaker for JBL so they use the best of the best. That doesn't mean that the uber $$ amps are needed though.
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post #20 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 02:33 PM
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If I had to guess I'd say JBL will only supply their settings with the Itech amps and probably won't sell the speakers alone. Of course if you could get the speakers sans amp or DSP you could use whatever amps and DSP you want so ,one as you know how to design a crossover.

Iirc I saw MSRP of around $15k/pair for the speakers sans amps/DSP. For that money I would go with active Danleys.
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post #21 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 04:37 PM
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If this drawing is accurate, it is an interesting approach. Small driver with 2x displacement.


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post #22 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 04:57 PM
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Wow very cool concept. Is that a cut away of the D2 or what ever is in this?
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post #23 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The biggest issues with the 4722 are the drivers. They are middle of the road which isn't bad relative to most HT stuff, but they are the weak link. Assuming the JBL coax is similar to the BMS coax it is a pretty nice step up from the 4722's CD. A 4722 with a BMS coax and better woofers would be pretty nice. It also wouldn't be tough to improve the woofer box.

Hey Max, that's why I upgraded my 4622's to the 2450-SL and active bi-amped with the Crown DSi's. POS over at LH preferred the 2450's over the 2435's. Next year I will go to the Truex phragms. Some would say this rivals the 476be !!!
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post #24 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I really like their AE series, two way 12's and 15's. It's an permanent install line, and they're tremendous. What's funny is the Synthesis branded audiophile stuff, costs a fortune. But one can nearly get the same performance from the AE line. The waveguides in the AE line are very similar to that of the "new" master-reference-monitor rolleyes.gif

Very true! Before I found my 4622's I had the AM6215/95's. Very smooth sounding speakers. Since they are a few years old now, they are an absolute steal too. Its also interesting that both the 4622 HF and the 6215 use the AL phragms (2430 and 2431 respectively).
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post #25 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 06:38 PM
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Hey Max, that's why I upgraded my 4622's to the 2450-SL and active bi-amped with the Crown DSi's. POS over at LH preferred the 2450's over the 2435's. Next year I will go to the Truex phragms. Some would say this rivals the 476be !!!

The 4622 and 4722 are awesome off the charts values. The ability to upgrade them with something like the 4" JBL CDs (potentially with be phragms or at least coated titanium) or to a BMS coax makes them an awesome solution for guys who can hide them or have no WAF to consider.

Are you enjoying the 2450s over the 2431s?
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post #26 of 30 Old 03-09-2013, 06:56 PM
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I am Max, very much. I can't hear much beyond 12khz, but I swear theses have a higher top end. Overall they are more smooth too, and the 2430 is no slouch. The mix with 2-2242's,1-2245,1-TD18...and oh yea a DTS-10 is unreal. And yes they are hidden by the screen. Are you still using the 2245's?
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post #27 of 30 Old 03-10-2013, 12:33 PM
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Yep, I have the 2245's, 2226's and 2452H-SL's on 2352 horns. JBL!!!
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post #28 of 30 Old 03-10-2013, 01:55 PM
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^
Nice, what are the 2452H-SL ...?



Here's the close up of the waveguide;



I love the use of the lowly rolleyes.gif pro audio amps, ... Dynaudio similarly uses LabGruppen in their high end actives for studio/mastering applications. Oh the horror.

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post #29 of 30 Old 03-10-2013, 02:43 PM
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2452H-SL is the latest (to the best of my knowledge) JBL pro 1.5" exit 4" diaphragm CD. It is used in their top PA boxes and their TOTL ScreenArray systems. I believe it replaced the 2450. The SL designates an aquaplas coated titanium diaphragm.

TOTL Crowns and LGs aren't exactly Berry EP4k's, but yeah it is funny.

The audiophile world's collective jaw would hit the floor if the next generation of Everest's used active DSP and pro amps. Somehow I don't think the market is ready for that. It would be fun to A/B some passive Everests with highend DSP tailored to the room Everests. Anybody want to fund that? biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 30 Old 03-10-2013, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

k. Assuming the JBL coax is similar to the BMS coax i.
The JBL and the BMS are VERY different drivers with very different approaches. The JBL uses 2 identical (or close to identical) diaphragms-that feed a single output. So you get more power capacity and more surface area moving.

The BMS is a true coax-with one diaphragm producing the lows and the other the highs.

They each have their own magnet structure and the low freq unit gives up HF extension for more power capacity. The HF gives up low freq extension for greater sensitivity and higher HF extension.

They both feed the same exit-with the HF going through the middle of the lower freq driver.

They are both "the same" in that they are basically ring radiators-rather than domed compression drivers.

From what I understand (I could be wrong) they were both designed by the same guy.

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