First time DIY gonna build some subs. Lil Help please - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-29-2013, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to buy a pair of subs for my 4600Ft^3 room with concrete floor and I couldn't decide between PSA XS30s or Rythmik FV15HP's. I had been going back and forth for a month when I stumbled in to the DIY section and I haven't been back to the sub section of the forum. I like to learn and build things so this seems like a good idea.

I started playing with WinISD and a couple 18" options. It looks to me like the Dayton RSS460Ho and the Stereo Integrity HT18 model pretty much the same and shipped cost the same so I think I'll go with the Dayton's for aesthetic reasons. I entertained the 2 LMS Ultras in the Classified section but I'd like to keep the equipment total around $2k-ish

I'm thinking 4 subs either dual opposed or in seperate enclosures with the goal of Low extension and quality sound.

I'm not trying to save money but rather have some fun and end up with something I won't want to upgrade tomorrow.

Here are my questions so far:
1)Is there any reason the SI 18 is a better choice or is it just the new flavor this week?
2)If I do 2 dual opposed builds, what amp/s should I go with? What others are there?
-Crest XLS5000 seems to have risen in price recently and be out of stock at most places.
-Sanway LG Clone doesn't have a warranty that I can tell and is subject to be DOA.
-EP4000 doesn't seem like it will work for dual opposed with these drivers
3)Can someone tell me the benefits to opposed vs single cabinets other than placement, wood savings and the 2 drivers canceling each other?

What else should I consider or know?
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post #2 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 03:29 AM
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if you get 2 ep4000's it will work fine just run one driver per channel. you listed 3 huge benefits of dual opposed lol, the only negative would be you have only 2 sub placement locations, but with 4 you could place them in 4 ideal spots around your room for smoothest bass.
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

I wanted to buy a pair of subs for my 4600Ft^3 room with concrete floor and I couldn't decide between PSA XS30s or Rythmik FV15HP's. I had been going back and forth for a month when I stumbled in to the DIY section and I haven't been back to the sub section of the forum. I like to learn and build things so this seems like a good idea.

I started playing with WinISD and a couple 18" options. It looks to me like the Dayton RSS460Ho and the Stereo Integrity HT18 model pretty much the same and shipped cost the same so I think I'll go with the Dayton's for aesthetic reasons. I entertained the 2 LMS Ultras in the Classified section but I'd like to keep the equipment total around $2k-ish

I'm thinking 4 subs either dual opposed or in seperate enclosures with the goal of Low extension and quality sound.

I'm not trying to save money but rather have some fun and end up with something I won't want to upgrade tomorrow.

Here are my questions so far:
1)Is there any reason the SI 18 is a better choice or is it just the new flavor this week?
2)If I do 2 dual opposed builds, what amp/s should I go with? What others are there?
-Crest XLS5000 seems to have risen in price recently and be out of stock at most places.
-Sanway LG Clone doesn't have a warranty that I can tell and is subject to be DOA.
-EP4000 doesn't seem like it will work for dual opposed with these drivers
3)Can someone tell me the benefits to opposed vs single cabinets other than placement, wood savings and the 2 drivers canceling each other?

What else should I consider or know?

For #2-
Not an expert but was considering doing 2 dual opposed builds myself. From what I was gathering if you wire two Dayton's in parallel in a do box, that should give you a 2 ohm load, and then you could run 1 do box of off each side of the ep4000. Specs state 2x2000 at 2 ohm. Maybe someone with more experience could give their opinion on this though.
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post #4 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

I wanted to buy a pair of subs for my 4600Ft^3 room with concrete floor and I couldn't decide between PSA XS30s or Rythmik FV15HP's. I had been going back and forth for a month when I stumbled in to the DIY section and I haven't been back to the sub section of the forum. I like to learn and build things so this seems like a good idea.

I started playing with WinISD and a couple 18" options. It looks to me like the Dayton RSS460Ho and the Stereo Integrity HT18 model pretty much the same and shipped cost the same so I think I'll go with the Dayton's for aesthetic reasons. I entertained the 2 LMS Ultras in the Classified section but I'd like to keep the equipment total around $2k-ish

I'm thinking 4 subs either dual opposed or in seperate enclosures with the goal of Low extension and quality sound.

I'm not trying to save money but rather have some fun and end up with something I won't want to upgrade tomorrow.

Here are my questions so far:
1)Is there any reason the SI 18 is a better choice or is it just the new flavor this week?
They are both new on the market. The SI has a little more displacement and ends up a few bucks cheaper which makes it the current favorite.
2)If I do 2 dual opposed builds, what amp/s should I go with? What others are there?
-Crest XLS5000 seems to have risen in price recently and be out of stock at most places.
-Sanway LG Clone doesn't have a warranty that I can tell and is subject to be DOA.
-EP4000 doesn't seem like it will work for dual opposed with these drivers
Amp doesn't correlate to driver orientation. Use whatever amp can deliver 600-1000w x 4. Also consider how you will get A/C power to the amp(s). 4kw is pushing the limits of a 15a residential circuit.
3)Can someone tell me the benefits to opposed vs single cabinets other than placement, wood savings and the 2 drivers canceling each other?
Those are all the advantages. Dual opposed simply cancels vibration which is a loss of energy. Pointing the driver down at the floor reduces vibration as well while also reducing even order harmonic distortion.

What else should I consider or know?
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I was thinking there was a performance difference between Dual Opposed and 4 single cabinets. I suppose the loss of energy from vibrations is performance.

Based on the testing I can find for the EP4000, I think I want more power than I'd get in 2ohm stereo. I haven't seen any test results for the Crown or Cerwin Vega 5000, but they seem like better options assuming they put out the rated 5000 watts in 4 ohm bridged.

Should I also be looking to pick up a miniDSP or wait and see what kind of response I get in my room? I think I'll add the omnimic to my PE order list while I'm at it.

As far as power to the amp, the panel is close enough that I don't mind adding another drop if I need to. This crossed my mind and I think I have a couple 20amp breakers left over from my last home remodel. I know I have 10-2 and 12-2 wire and outlets.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 07:52 AM
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I guess I was thinking there was a performance difference between Dual Opposed and 4 single cabinets. I suppose the loss of energy from vibrations is performance.

I measured a 2db gain from turning front loaded 15" sub 90 degrees to point at the floor and standing it on some blocks. With 4 subs it would be better to have 4 separate sources in the room than 2, especially if you are not going to use DSP. Not to take anything away from a DO build. Those are good too...just some things to consider.
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Instead of tuning for absolute highest output can I use the miniDSP to lower the higher output frequencies and flatten response? I know this goes against the grain of most in here trying to squeek out every last db and bring their valleys up to match the peaks. I don't know if that makes sense.
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

Instead of tuning for absolute highest output can I use the miniDSP to lower the higher output frequencies and flatten response? I know this goes against the grain of most in here trying to squeek out every last db and bring their valleys up to match the peaks. I don't know if that makes sense.

yeah you can. the minidsp is really good it can do a ton of things, you should definitely get one.
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

Instead of tuning for absolute highest output can I use the miniDSP to lower the higher output frequencies and flatten response? I know this goes against the grain of most in here trying to squeek out every last db and bring their valleys up to match the peaks. I don't know if that makes sense.

This makes sense only if you have more peaks than valleys, and that they aren't the result of room-mode nulls,
most nulls cannot be overcome by added more signal boost; so this method doesn't usually work.

There are ALSO two downsides of doing it that way, you increase the risk of cliping the DSP's output or the amp's input stage, or even the EQ processing stage itself. (and that is a very bad thing, woofer-cooking).

On the flipside, humps in the response can be leveled fairly easily, and has no downside; gain can be slightly increased to compensate for any loss in SPL.... or if woofers are at their end, more subs can be added.
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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There are ALSO two downsides of doing it that way, you increase the risk of cliping the DSP's output or the amp's input stage, or even the EQ processing stage itself. (and that is a very bad thing, woofer-cooking).

You lost me on this one. I understand how boosting nulls can cause problems/clipping but not how retarding peaks can cause clipping


On another note while I making my PE shopping list, Is this what I want to use for LFE to amp? Is there another option I should consider?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-438
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-30-2013, 03:58 PM
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You lost me on this one. I understand how boosting nulls can cause problems/clipping but not how retarding peaks can cause clipping


On another note while I making my PE shopping list, Is this what I want to use for LFE to amp? Is there another option I should consider?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-438

you should get one of these http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10244&cs_id=1024404
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post #12 of 17 Old 01-31-2013, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it better? I already have sub cables and I hate to order from Monoprice for that one thing if I can avoid it. Shipping is as much as the cable.

Can I get some input on amps? I seem to want 5000 watts but I can't find any real numbers or testing on the 2 likely candidates, Crown XLS5000 and the CV 5000. I don't mind 2 amps but with these speakers in dual opposed, I'm looking for 2500 at 2 or 8 ohms stereo or 2 seperate amps each with 2500 at 8 ohm bridged. I know that's about the same thing but this limits my amp choices. I don't really want to go with a weaker output amp "to just get by"
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-31-2013, 08:05 AM
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it's just cheaper buying a cable instead of a sub cable and a converter, but if you already have the sub cable then it doesn't really matter.
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post #14 of 17 Old 05-11-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I finally got one of these finished. 7.5 cubic feet dual opposed Dayton RSS460HO 18". I put 5lbs of poly in. I've got the box built for the other one. I just need to finish it. The amp is a CV-5000

Couple initial issues & questions.
1)I have what I think is a ground loop/hum from the HDMI out of my DirecTV receiver. If I unplug it from the DTV box, it stops. It connects straight from the sat box to the TV. My Onkyo AVR is pre-HDMI. What's the fix for this?

2)The AVR is Onkyo TX-SR702, and even with the sub level at +12(max) and the gain all the way up on the amp, I can rarely even get the -20 light on the amp to flicker. I'd think I'd be clipping with everything wide open. I just don't have much output. and would prefer to have the levels backed off with the ability for overhead. Is the signal from the receiver too weak?

3) Next I'd like a DSP of some sort and a mic to get some measurements. I don't want a minidsp so what's the ticket for a rack mount job? Will this help with #2 if it's because of a weak signal from the AVR?

With all settings cranked up, it does sound pretty good though. Here's some pics.





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post #15 of 17 Old 05-11-2013, 05:50 PM
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John nice job on the cabnets. Good choice on the amp. That should be plenty for 4 daytons .run a piece of wire from DTV box to your receiver.just hold it on the metal case of each .and see if the buzz goes away . onkyo. should have enough drive to run the cv amp.somethings not right. I don't know that model. its got to be a setting on the onkyo.I'm sure some guys will chime in here soon with the answer
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post #16 of 17 Old 05-12-2013, 01:26 PM
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2)The AVR is Onkyo TX-SR702, and even with the sub level at +12(max) and the gain all the way up on the amp, I can rarely even get the -20 light on the amp to flicker. I'd think I'd be clipping with everything wide open. I just don't have much output. and would prefer to have the levels backed off with the ability for overhead. Is the signal from the receiver too weak?

I'd expect the sub to be overwhelming at that level. Some questions:

What volume are you listening at?

Have you tried different placement locations?

What version of audyssey do you have? If it calibrates the sub, what level did it set the sub to? What level are mains set to?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
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post #17 of 17 Old 05-12-2013, 01:36 PM
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Just googled the onkyo 702. It doesn't have audyssey but does have an onkyo auto mic calibration ability. I'd run that and see what all levels are set to. Be sure the Late Night volume feature isn't enabled. Since your AVR has no EQ abilities, you'd definitely benefit from some external EQ.

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