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post #271 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 09:20 AM
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Yes. A $2200 amp. Sadly, I only paid $480. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #272 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes. A $2200 amp. Sadly, I only paid $480. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Yeah how sad. I weep for you. lol
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post #273 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 09:55 AM
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Yeah how sad. I weep for you. lol

BWHHHHAHHAHAHA.

Listen, it has been a LONG time I have waited to buy my substage amp. And I may buy one more smaller version....
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post #274 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 02:13 PM
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WTFFFFFFF. You home yet?????tongue.gif
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post #275 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Unboxed them. UPS caused some small damage on these, which is somewhat expected with untreated wood. Some of the bottom under the slot port chipped off on both speakers. Nothing that isn't repairable before painting.

On to the sound. At first, the R-972 was being quirky and I wasn't getting any bass out of them, so I did a factory reset and ran Trinnov again. 0 on the volume knob means reference, and this was setting my speakers to -22 (off an Emotiva XPA-5. Quite efficient.

Set the speakers to full range and tried out some music. WHOA. WOW. These things can hit low! For most people in a small room, they would do fine with just these speakers. These put out quite a bit of bass, and it never really strains until a track hits under 30hz. Ran some Pendulum (dnb) and Lil Wayne and these speakers can play them on their own with no issues. There isn't enough bass from just the speakers in my room though, but when I flip the EP4000 switch on the dual 18s next to me, that problem is quickly solved.

Going to try more movies and pics. Got my HT demo disc ready to go.

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post #276 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 04:45 PM
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Right on. Nice pimp light. biggrin.gif

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post #277 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Right on. Nice pimp light. biggrin.gif

Its actually the light from a 125 gallon reef tank reflecting next to it. I have to turn off the return pump every time I do measurements and Trinnov.... but yes its pimp smile.gif

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post #278 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 05:03 PM
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Dude, that is sweet. I tore down my 240 reef about a year ago as it was just a huge freaking money pit. Even more than the theater. cool.gif

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post #279 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Dude, that is sweet. I tore down my 240 reef about a year ago as it was just a huge freaking money pit. Even more than the theater. cool.gif

Once everything is up and running, the costs aren't too bad. We have a store here that sells coral and fish crazy cheap. He just had a coral sale, SPS colonies for $20. Picked up 3 (the limit per person). Line out the door.

I don't think I'm ever going to cross these speakers over. They distinctly sound a bit better at full range compared to crossed at 80hz with music, most likely due to leveling out the bass in the front of the room, with my subs toward the back.

I think I spot some differences Joey did as well. My previous speakers were JBL 190 towers with a waveguide and dome tweeter.

*The SEOS12 and DNA-360 creates the same immersion effect of the sound stage, but on a much wider area compared to the 190 (most likely due to the size differences of the waveguides).

*Hi frequency cymbal crashes during some Clutch songs sound more clinical now, where with the dome they had a bit extra something to them... which was kind of desirable, but possibly not accurate. The SEOS/DNA is crystal clear even in full range with heavy bass playing, so I think the dome might be adding something. Is that what you were hearing JB? These don't have the extra push up high like the dome, but maybe they aren't supposed to, since I wanted the flat response.

*The louder the towers get, the better they sound. Unfortunately, I cant let these things loose until later this weekend.

Best speakers I've heard in my room so far. I'll tell you though, the difference isn't as grand as I thought it would be so far with just music. The SEOS/AE speaker is absolutely better in every aspect, but the JBL190 was selling for $150 per speaker at newegg a few weeks ago. That's a huge value on a speaker that used to cost $499, and it speaks volumes that its actually better than I thought they were.

Movies next
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post #280 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Ran the Incredible Hulk demo:

These speakers have just as much impact and bass as my old eD A2-300 subwoofer. That's just unreal.

I'm noticing the cloaked voices on some scenes too, but not always. The gap between loud noises and the cloaked voices is big enough to be distracting sometimes. Wondering if it needs to break in a bit more, is a byproduct of running phantom, or just be run loud all the time. The JBLs did this too, but to a lesser degree. Maybe it is just being more accurate than I'm used to... but it is still there with DRC night mode on.

This is absolutely a movie speaker though, and much stronger in music than I thought it'd be. F*cking incredible.

Holy sh*t I just ran War of the Worlds. A 2 way speaker should not be able to recreate this scene like this. lol. If you sit within 8 feet, you easily hit 20hz and lower with authority. Its not as strong back farther.
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post #281 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 08:09 PM
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post #282 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 08:42 PM
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That's an interesting comparison to the JBL's. I think these fall into the same category as everything else; diminishing return on investment. cool.gif I really expect these to be a lot better than my M80's, which cost a lot more than the JBL's, but I'm not sure they will sound 3x's better. I guess we'll see.

As far as the cloaked voices go; I'd attribute a lot of this to the phantom center. I played around with shutting my center on and off during movies, and noticed the same thing. Those who will contend that you can have the same effect without a center, have either never had one, or never had one. biggrin.gif

Can't wait to hear your impressions when you open these bad boys up.

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post #283 of 325 Old 05-24-2013, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That's an interesting comparison to the JBL's. I think these fall into the same category as everything else; diminishing return on investment. cool.gif I really expect these to be a lot better than my M80's, which cost a lot more than the JBL's, but I'm not sure they will sound 3x's better. I guess we'll see.

As far as the cloaked voices go; I'd attribute a lot of this to the phantom center. I played around with shutting my center on and off during movies, and noticed the same thing. Those who will contend that you can have the same effect without a center, have either never had one, or never had one. biggrin.gif

Can't wait to hear your impressions when you open these bad boys up.

You'll immediately notice the difference in the sweet spot, which will be huge in your theater. Highs should be less "harsh", and the mid/low mid is thundering.

I was more shocked that my previous speaker was better than I thought, and its because I Iisten under reference more than at it. If I tried this speaker after my old Acoustechs or Pioneers, I wouldn't have experienced anything like it. The surprise was taken away because I've gotten to experience constant directivity already from the JBL, so I already knew what it could do. A great waveguide creates an awesome soundstage and immersive imaging.

No doubt that the SEOS12/DNA/TD12X is a much better speaker outright, especially with its full range awesomeness provided by the woofer. I can tell already from quick volume bumps that once I actually play at reference that it will blow away the JBL, which wouldn't be able to keep up. The JBL 190 has a lot of similar characteristics due to its own waveguide, but on a smaller scale. If played under reference at normal listening volumes, its pretty capable and can compare, but not when the volume goes up.

I definitely made the right choice woofer wise though. Full range sounds so good with SW Plus+ (basically double bass) and the 18" SIs in the room. I'd be missing a little something if I went with a higher crossed over woofer I think. 80hz and sub just doesn't give the same feel.

I should take measurements of both in room to see if they truly are similar/different. That'll be awhile though. Still gotta enjoy these and paint em.
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post #284 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 04:24 AM
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nice write up.

"80hz and sub just doesn't give the same feel."

that sounds like an integration problem. placement near the mains, proper time alignment, crossover alignment, and eq should have them integrating as smoothly as if the mains were a passive 3-way design.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #285 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 05:04 AM
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bhazard, sounds like you have a killer setup! I am glad that you are liking the Seos speakers, and especially that AE TD12 woofer! I wish that I could afford to have the AE woofers in my Seos front stage. Are you going to look
into possibly adding some room treatments to your theater room? I would imagine that by adding some panels, and bass traps, you could improve the SQ even more. I didn't catch whether or not you have any measurement gear,
and if not, I highly recommend that you get some! I have recently added some bass traps to my theater room, as well as some panels, and to be honest, this is one of the most cost effective dollar per performance ratio upgrade that
I have ever done!
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post #286 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 05:51 AM
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Can you define what you mean exactly by sounding "Cloaked"?

I understand the definition, I am just wondering what you mean specifically by it.

Thank you for the write up on these, it has been fun watching this build.
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post #287 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 06:26 AM
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It will take a little time to get the sound of your old speakers out of your head. Once this happens you will notice more with the new towers. I would imagine that one of the bigger differences you are hearing now is just how dead silent the background is. Another is the exact playback of source material without any color or a brands sonic sound. Some Dome tweeters seam to put something unnatural or colored on the sound compared to a good quality Compression driver. If you do hear any bad sounds or something sounds off check your source material. Blurays and high quality recordings sound exact but copies off the webb sound less than stellar. If the material has any flaws at all it will be reproduced through the speakers. CDs that I have burned off of original cds sound like copies and not the originals.
SACDs sound alive. Bluray concerts are better than the real thing.
Things will really come together for you over the next month so seek out material that will really make those towers shine.
Great build all around.
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post #288 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 07:20 AM
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I'd have to agree, interesting comments and congrats on the entire project, very cool.

May I suggest as you continue to listen, don't be afraid to aggressively experiment with toe angles, and to a lesser degree, general placement. Big gains can be had when the proper synergy of placement and room interaction, subtly change tonality, SBIR, and FR smoothness.

Again, cool project cool.gif

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Dome tweeters seam to put something unnatural on the sound compared to good quality Compression drivers.

Chris, for me, I'd find it hard to lump dome tweeters in a group like that. You're entirely right if saying many dome tweeters color the reproduction vis-à-vis a good compression driver. However, a good dome could be every bit as capable as a compression driver, within it's operating limits. I prefer compression drivers too (I'm 7.3, and compression drivers all around), but there's plenty of dome designs whereby the break-up is pushed up and well damped out of the audible range.

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post #289 of 325 Old 05-25-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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The room is definitely trouble. Placement options are limited, awkward, and room treatment isn't an option. It's not optimal by any means. Trinnov does help a lot in that regard.

I'm thinking the cloaked voice thing that happens sometimes is because of the phantom center too, because it isn't there during music. Its just more apparent now than running phantom on the jbl. Trinnov usually does a great job with that too, so I'll try running a center at some point to confirm.

Started opening these bad boys up, and it started revealing its strong point. My face will distort before these speakers do. I toed them in a bit, but the sweet spot is so large it doesn't really do anything. Everything sounds so clean, so clear, especially at higher volumes. The speakers and the Stereo Integrity subs are a perfect blend.

I'm running the new Alice in Chains album and it sounds so much better than my car system (which uses $300 DLS components and a Dayton RF 15"). I worked for Jerry Cantrell when he put out Degradation Trip, and these speakers nail the guitar and his voice perfectly.

These speakers are so much fun, and I'm just getting started smile.gif
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post #290 of 325 Old 05-26-2013, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The room is definitely trouble. Placement options are limited, awkward, and room treatment isn't an option. It's not optimal by any means. Trinnov does help a lot in that regard.

I'm thinking the cloaked voice thing that happens sometimes is because of the phantom center too, because it isn't there during music. Its just more apparent now than running phantom on the jbl. Trinnov usually does a great job with that too, so I'll try running a center at some point to confirm.

Started opening these bad boys up, and it started revealing its strong point. My face will distort before these speakers do. I toed them in a bit, but the sweet spot is so large it doesn't really do anything. Everything sounds so clean, so clear, especially at higher volumes. The speakers and the Stereo Integrity subs are a perfect blend.

I'm running the new Alice in Chains album and it sounds so much better than my car system (which uses $300 DLS components and a Dayton RF 15"). I worked for Jerry Cantrell when he put out Degradation Trip, and these speakers nail the guitar and his voice perfectly.

These speakers are so much fun, and I'm just getting started smile.gif


Wow, bhazard, I am in envy with regards to you working for Cantrell! That must have been awesome! What did you do for him, (if you don't mind me asking)? I have heard that he is a really nice, down to earth guy.
I love listening to Alice in Chains on my Sierra-1's and since my Sierra-1's are back at Ascend getting the RAAL tweeter upgrade, I absolutely can not wait to get them back and play some Alice in Chains through them.
Rooster, Down in a Whole, Man in the box, and so many others are absolutely amazing on these speakers!
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post #291 of 325 Old 05-26-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow, bhazard, I am in envy with regards to you working for Cantrell! That must have been awesome! What did you do for him, (if you don't mind me asking)? I have heard that he is a really nice, down to earth guy.
I love listening to Alice in Chains on my Sierra-1's and since my Sierra-1's are back at Ascend getting the RAAL tweeter upgrade, I absolutely can not wait to get them back and play some Alice in Chains through them.
Rooster, Down in a Whole, Man in the box, and so many others are absolutely amazing on these speakers!

I was part of the publicity dept at Roadrunner Records at the time. Bands came to the office all the time, and whenever the bands play in NYC we would get to see them.
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post #292 of 325 Old 05-26-2013, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to see just how well these speakers held up with some heavier material, so I threw on Meshuggah - Koloss....

Normally, a metal cd like this causes all sorts of distortion from nonstop double bass kicks and guitar work, but not through these speakers. I can clearly hear everything from the drums, bass, cymbals, guitar, and vocals all at the same time. The separation is remarkable. I'm only hitting peaks of 95db and I'm getting looks from the neighbors. HAHAHA too bad, i'm offering free music education from your American Idol clouded minds.

Threw in Dark Side of the Moon Blu-Ray edition...... its never sounded better. Unreal.

I really need to hear the Noesis and Catalysts one day, because they've gotta be something special to really blow past these. The Noesis are already at a disadvantage because they could never play as deep as these on their own.
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post #293 of 325 Old 05-27-2013, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
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I was part of the publicity dept at Roadrunner Records at the time. Bands came to the office all the time, and whenever the bands play in NYC we would get to see them.


That is so cool! I have been a huge Alice in Chains fan, as well as a huge fan of late 80's early 90's rock bands ever since that time period! Was Cantrell a pretty cool dude? Down to earth? Or was he like Eddie Van Halen and acts like a jerk?
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post #294 of 325 Old 05-27-2013, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Jerry was ok. He had the rock star persona, but he wasn't an ass about it. Didn't really try to get to know us much.

One of the coolest, nicest guys I got to work with was Jeff Hanneman. Always said hi, never was an ass to us, fun to talk to. R.I.P. Tom was cool too, but Kerry and Dave not so much.
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post #295 of 325 Old 05-27-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

The room is definitely trouble. Placement options are limited, awkward, and room treatment isn't an option. It's not optimal by any means. Trinnov does help a lot in that regard.

I'd really enjoy experimenting, experiencing Trinnov in my system at some point, we'll see. I spent a very special listening session with the fascinating Curt Hoyt of Trinnov, just he and I auditioning an incredible and very capable system*. After hearing his take on DSP, and how Trinnov is implemented, I'd really dig going full Trinnov at some point.

I understand placement options are limited, but some modest, yet critical room treatment could be performed with a few simple DIY 2x4 portable panels. I've experimented so much with acoustics, what's most effective and what's less so yet still needed. It doesn't take much to really impact the sound in a significant manner, for a mere modest DIY investment.



*(I only mention this because it was one of the most powerful audio listening experiences I've ever had. It was a 7 channel system, w/12 sealed subs, fully custom, multi-driver cone/ribbon based line arrays 23 channels of 30kw of fully DSP contoured LabGruppen power, it was very, very cool stuff by Xtx group. Discussing the system's merits with Curt of Trinnov was enjoyable, and compelled me to pursue Trinnov at some time)


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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

I'm thinking the cloaked voice thing that happens sometimes is because of the phantom center too, because it isn't there during music. Its just more apparent now than running phantom on the jbl. Trinnov usually does a great job with that too, so I'll try running a center at some point to confirm.

This issue you refer to, "cloaked voice" from the phantom center, is to be expected with some sources.

Remember, that program material mixed for center channel use (LCR playback), creates problems when played back utilizing a phantom center. What happens is while listening, one encounters unavoidable HRTF (head related transfer function) spectral issues, primarily an approx two octave wide 2khz dip, that's associated with multi-channel material, and a phantom center. It's entirely possible this may be the issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Started opening these bad boys up, and it started revealing its strong point. My face will distort before these speakers do. I toed them in a bit, but the sweet spot is so large it doesn't really do anything. Everything sounds so clean, so clear, especially at higher volumes. The speakers and the Stereo Integrity subs are a perfect blend.

This sounds exciting cool.gif Experiencing live levels, realistic live levels with no significant compression or distortions ... is truly a revelation in the home setting. Hence my signature/tagline.


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These speakers are so much fun, and I'm just getting started smile.gif

Hell yeah, keep us updated!

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post #296 of 325 Old 05-29-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Went old school today and threw in some Sinatra and Michael Jackson. Perfection.

I'm now liking these better for music, and my room loves double bass from the TD12X.

I've also found that my couch produces a huge null if I lay back, but if I tilt my head forward everything goes back to normal. Gotta correct that with another mic calibration. Probably needs room treatment, but I would need something with a high WAF to pull that off.
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post #297 of 325 Old 05-30-2013, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Went old school today and threw in some Sinatra and Michael Jackson. Perfection.

I'm now liking these better for music, and my room loves double bass from the TD12X.

Excellent biggrin.gif
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post #298 of 325 Old 06-01-2013, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Speakers with grills. Today seems to be stealthy speaker day.

Hoping to do some putty + sanding + sanding sealer tomorrow, but its too damn hot out.

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post #299 of 325 Old 06-01-2013, 07:48 PM
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Those have an awesome old-school look to them right now. Are they going to be painted black?
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post #300 of 325 Old 06-01-2013, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Those have an awesome old-school look to them right now. Are they going to be painted black?

Piano Black with a mirror like finish (hopefully).

I do like the bare wood look, but since the front baffle is MDF and a different color, it looks weird. The piano black would make it a concealed, sexy, powerhouse. I've always wanted piano black too, and now is my chance.
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