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post #1 of 325 Old 01-30-2013, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently, I've gotten hooked on DIY audio and the bang for the buck you get from it. I already started a dual opposed 18" SI sub build, and now I want matching SEOS towers to go along with it. I'm not new to AV, but I am completely new to DIY audio.

I've taken lots of interest in Beastaudio's build, and would like to build something similar using the DIYaudiogroup ported tower baffle.

I would be using:

SEOS-12 Plastic Waveguide
12" TD12X
bwaslo's crossover design
40" ported tower baffle or blank baffle, sides made from BB.

I'm looking to get results similar to what beast got. A nice 40-50hz or so tune with good response that can play nice and low if desired for 2 channel audio.

The box doesn't need to be deep, but I would need help determining the best dimensions. I would only be giving each speaker AVR power for now (Denon 4311), and probably using 8ohm. Would two TD12X's in the tower be too complicated, worse off than 1 woofer, or too much? Would they share the crossover? It seems like I would get smoother and deeper response with it, but it also seems like overkill.

Any help is appreciated.
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post #2 of 325 Old 01-30-2013, 01:54 PM
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Two in one tower is an entirely different build, XO, and monster. The center to center distance from the CD and the furthest woofer would be different, and different means new crossover smile.gif

Here is the box:

14.5x30 front baffle, 16" deep box using 3/4BB after front baffle goes on, it would be 16 3/4" deep. internal slot port would be 13x13x2. Before port, driver and bracing displacement you are at 3.1cuft, after all that right about at 2.5 cuft with a 40hz tune :Nice:

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post #3 of 325 Old 01-30-2013, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Two in one tower is an entirely different build, XO, and monster. The center to center distance from the CD and the furthest woofer would be different, and different means new crossover smile.gif

Here is the box:

14.5x30 front baffle, 16" deep box using 3/4BB after front baffle goes on, it would be 16 3/4" deep. internal slot port would be 13x13x2. Before port, driver and bracing displacement you are at 3.1cuft, after all that right about at 2.5 cuft with a 40hz tune :Nice:

Would the 40" tall ported baffle work in keeping the tune in the same range with its 2.5" ports? It would be easier and take much less time on that one since all the cuts are done already. 10-12" deep maybe? 14.5 x 12 x 40?

Its too bad that there isn't a two woofer crossover design available for these. It would look so menacing smile.gif
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post #4 of 325 Old 01-30-2013, 03:28 PM
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12" deep would work. you then would have a 2.5 inch tall slot port 13" wide and a little over 9" deep. That is a 50hz tune

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post #5 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 05:06 AM
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Cool build! There can never really be enough SEOS projects around here. biggrin.gif It also seems like this is just the beginning. cool.gif
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post #6 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 05:51 AM
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Just out of curiosity, how would adding a second woofer (2 total pet tower) affect the crossover? I am new to this and have zero crossover knowledge, but, could the second woofer not be wired in series, (or parrellel, not sure) to pretty much look like one woofer to the crossover? With my limited crossover knowledge I am unsure...
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post #7 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I will probably use these ports instead of a slot port, since I have the room, and the cutout is already done.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-478

Any ideas for the optimal length of the port for the 40" baffle?
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post #8 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Just out of curiosity, how would adding a second woofer (2 total pet tower) affect the crossover? I am new to this and have zero crossover knowledge, but, could the second woofer not be wired in series, (or parrellel, not sure) to pretty much look like one woofer to the crossover? With my limited crossover knowledge I am unsure...

Not only would it change the impedance wiring them together, but the reason most only use a single woofer is that the woofer is not only doing bass duty, but midrange (up to 1.2khz) as well. basically, the sweet spot is dead center between the compression driver and the center of the woofer. the XO helps to voice the two together so that single point, is the point source. If you add another driver either above the horn or below that other woofer, then it changes that reference point completely, thus changing the XO schematic completely. Does this make sense?

Eessentially, the benefit of the danley synergy horns is ALL frequencies being reproduced are all coming from the exact same horn, and that is why they sound so good. With a horn woofer combo like this, you are getting the next-best thing to a full on point source, but since the midrange is still being done by the woofer, doubling that sound source to two different locations is a no-no for some, inluding myself.

Some exceptions:

A 2.5 way design where you do both drivers below the horn, one doing midrange duty AND bass, and then the lower one doing just the bass duty. Still requires changing the XO, but can be done. What is the benefit? A little higher sensitivity down low.

A larger horn with a 2-way compression driver that could potentially get down into the 3-400hz range therefore not requiring as much directivity out of the woofers, but go ahead and drop $700 on a 2 way compression driver, one for each speaker, and you are already at $2100, not including anything else...You first!! haha.
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post #9 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 08:11 AM
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There are quite a few 2way towers out there. Most run the second woofer in parallel so yes components need to be spec'd for the new impedance. The schematic of the JBL 4722 is a good one to follow for example. It's listed as a 2way screen array and the diagram showed the woofers wired similar. I'm making 4 Ohm towers out of our SHO10s with dual delta10a's. It's a future project since i'm still oconus at the moment. I have the parts to change to a 2.5way and experiment.

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post #10 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Design and color wise, I'm going with something unique.

Has anyone ever seen the HSU rosenut red color? I'm trying to closely match that with Transtint red mahogany stain http://www.woodworkingshop.com/product/hs6010/?inMed=GSTORE&gclid=CM6f0ciAk7UCFQVnOgodDU0AGw and clear coat on both the subs and towers. With the birch box on both, if it comes out good its going to look sexy as hell.
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post #11 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:17 AM
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Would twin woofers side by side (making a very wide squat overall speaker) work because the c-c distance would stay the same vertically and still be centered horizontally. Would still have to work out the change due to impedance and wiring. Just curious as I have no interest in building such a beast.

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post #12 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:21 AM
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Because of the existence of this...


I would say yes. Then again, I'm listening to a similar configuration right now and the $75,000 JBL is what made me think 'hey I'm not crazy, this sounds great, better than the vertical configuration'


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Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Would twin woofers side by side (making a very wide squat overall speaker) work because the c-c distance would stay the same vertically and still be centered horizontally. Would still have to work out the change due to impedance and wiring. Just curious as I have no interest in building such a beast.

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post #13 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:38 AM
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I'm sort of doing the same thing in my uber build but it's a cluster of four 15's. Side by side and top/bottom. tongue.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #14 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:43 AM
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That jbl still has a midhorn which once again helps with lowering that crossover point to dual woofers, thus improving the idea of the point source design. Your design also utilizes a horn that is capable much lower than most iirC. Isn't it a 1.4 or 2" CD? I guess my bottom line is with an SEOS12 and the dna360, I wouldn't suggest doing a dual driver setup, unless you also did a midhorn or upped the SEOS to an 18 or 24. A 1.2khz cross to the dual woofers would cause more issues than the added sensitivity is worth IMO

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post #15 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:47 AM
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Maybe an MTM then?

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post #16 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 09:53 AM
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yea that is better than TMM config IMO, and you would want to be dead center listening position vertically. right level with the CD. done this way, I think it would be VERY beneficial, but as far as what to change on the XO, I would even know where to start...

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post #17 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 10:01 AM
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Sometimes I forget that smaller horns have a physical limit on how low they can play. I'm using the exact same crossover point as JBL - 700 hz w/24db curve. I want fiberglass SEOS 24s, they look awesome but yeah my CD is 2" exit so no-go... and a full replacement is probably not worth it.
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That jbl still has a midhorn which once again helps with lowering that crossover point to dual woofers, thus improving the idea of the point source design. Your design also utilizes a horn that is capable much lower than most iirC. Isn't it a 1.4 or 2" CD? I guess my bottom line is with an SEOS12 and the dna360, I wouldn't suggest doing a dual driver setup, unless you also did a midhorn or upped the SEOS to an 18 or 24. A 1.2khz cross to the dual woofers would cause more issues than the added sensitivity is worth IMO

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post #18 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 10:28 AM
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Couple things:

1. That JBL is actually a 3.5way with one woofer coming in lower than the other. They don't cover the same range. One woofer covers 150hz and lower, the other covers 700hz and lower.
2. You don't want to run two 12" or 15" woofers side by side covering the same range with a crossover in the 1khz range. Directivity will collapse well below 90deg. I wouldn't do run them higher than maybe 500hz if you are matching to a 90deg horizontal horn but it would be best to measure the directivity of the woofers.

iMagic, I don't mean to be rude and I'm sure your speakers sound good to you, but they won't measure very well, especially the directivity. Did you take measurements when dialing in your DSP? You would actually be best served by a single woofer.

To the OP, if you are using a predesigned crossover like Bwaslo's use a similar baffle width and driver to horn spacing. Any changes to these parameters, or changes to the drivers or horns used will require a complete redesign. Crossover design is not trivial. It requires measurements, design tools and design knowledge. The same goes for proper active DSP design although it is quicker to complete and requires less knowledge (although more than most people realize).
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post #19 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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No changes. I will just be using the 40" tower baffle from Erich H. and using it in a tower config instead.

The JBL 190s I currently use have constant directivity waveguides as well. Based on listening to those, I know the SEOS design will further improve the great imaging I already hear.

On top of that, my Sherwood R972 I ordered finally shipped. With a dual 18" SI sub, TD12X SEOS, and Trinnov, this is going to be a high class system for mid-range $.
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post #20 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 10:43 AM
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I've taken days worth of measurements - over the course of some months - and worked with DSP extensively... and I have tried a number of configurations from one woofer on up to four. Yes, they sound excellent - to me as well as to my guests. I don't have directivity issues that affect my listening experience. I'm not the least bit offended by your suggestion. Others have suggested that I 'shade' one woofer, hopefuly nobody is offended that I don't see the need. When I pick up one more DSP amp, I'll consider adding the feature. One of the beautiful things about a fully custom speaker is you end up tailoring it to the space they are in, because performance characteristics outside the listening zone are wholly irrelevant, so I'm not worried about full 90 degree coverage. As for FR, they measure great throughout the LP.
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Couple things:

1. That JBL is actually a 3.5way with one woofer coming in lower than the other. They don't cover the same range. One woofer covers 150hz and lower, the other covers 700hz and lower.
2. You don't want to run two 12" or 15" woofers side by side covering the same range with a crossover in the 1khz range. Directivity will collapse well below 90deg. I wouldn't do run them higher than maybe 500hz if you are matching to a 90deg horizontal horn but it would be best to measure the directivity of the woofers.

iMagic, I don't mean to be rude and I'm sure your speakers sound good to you, but they won't measure very well, especially the directivity. Did you take measurements when dialing in your DSP? You would actually be best served by a single woofer.

To the OP, if you are using a predesigned crossover like Bwaslo's use a similar baffle width and driver to horn spacing. Any changes to these parameters, or changes to the drivers or horns used will require a complete redesign. Crossover design is not trivial. It requires measurements, design tools and design knowledge. The same goes for proper active DSP design although it is quicker to complete and requires less knowledge (although more than most people realize).

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post #21 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I've taken days worth of measurements - over the course of some months - and worked with DSP extensively... and I have tried a number of configurations from one woofer on up to four. Yes, they sound excellent - to me as well as to my guests. I don't have directivity issues that affect my listening experience. I'm not the least bit offended by your suggestion. Others have suggested that I 'shade' one woofer, hopefuly nobody is offended that I don't see the need. When I pick up one more DSP amp, I'll consider adding the feature. One of the beautiful things about a fully custom speaker is you end up tailoring it to the space they are in, because performance characteristics outside the listening zone are wholly irrelevant, so I'm not worried about full 90 degree coverage. As for FR, they measure great throughout the LP.

iMagic, I apologize for the assumptions. BTW, what size are those woofers? They might not actually be all that bad at a 700hz crossover point if they are 10s or 12s. They would likely be better in a box without the slot port between them though.

Off-axis response is hardly irrelevant. In fact it is second only to on-axis response in importance. I'm not referring solely to even coverage either.
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post #22 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 12:42 PM
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12" drivers. FWIW I would not have built it that way, with a slot there in the middle. I was testing the configuration because I am going to build cabinets at some point and I wanted to try all sorts of configurations before committing to something permanent. I thought putting the car subs on top would be a joke - jokes on me sometimes. It's always optional, I've got discreet wiring for all the drivers so I can mix-match impedance and selectively disable drivers of get rid of them. So far they survive the test, I've gone OCD over it so I'm confident they are keepers.
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iMagic, I apologize for the assumptions. BTW, what size are those woofers? They might not actually be all that bad at a 700hz crossover point if they are 10s or 12s. They would likely be better in a box without the slot port between them though.

Off-axis response is hardly irrelevant. In fact it is second only to on-axis response in importance. I'm not referring solely to even coverage either.

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post #23 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
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12" drivers. FWIW I would not have built it that way, with a slot there in the middle. I was testing the configuration because I am going to build cabinets at some point and I wanted to try all sorts of configurations before committing to something permanent. I thought putting the car subs on top would be a joke - jokes on me sometimes. It's always optional, I've got discreet wiring for all the drivers so I can mix-match impedance and selectively disable drivers of get rid of them. So far they survive the test, I've gone OCD over it so I'm confident they are keepers.

You are likely getting some waistbanding in the directivity from about 600-800hz. In a new box, you should push them together as tightly as possible and any waistbanding will be minimized. Running them over the same range gives you the benefit of lower directivity control vs using them stacked. JBL's use of stacked woofers in the 4722 is less than ideal IMO at the crossover points they use. I believe they do this because it is worth the tradeoff for greater output capability with two woofers. They would have directivity issues if they used them horizontally.
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post #24 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
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JBL's use of stacked woofers in the 4722 is less than ideal IMO at the crossover points they use. I believe they do this because it is worth the tradeoff for greater output capability with two woofers. They would have directivity issues if they used them horizontally.

The JBL two way 4722 have made it into some home theaters and are a icon and benchmark to me. Let's ask notnyt how bad their directivity is biggrin.gif

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post #25 of 325 Old 01-31-2013, 08:48 PM
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Just browsing the thread. If you have DSP, something like this is always a possibility for using multiple woofers as well. It allows you to get the centers closer together and also gives you ability to match the dispersion of the woofers a little better to the waveguide. Only issue is that it can get wide then.

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post #26 of 325 Old 02-01-2013, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
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The JBL two way 4722 have made it into some home theaters and are a icon and benchmark to me. Let's ask notnyt how bad their directivity is biggrin.gif

The issue with the 4722N is not a matter of horizontal directivity, but of vertical nulls causing response issues. The passive version has an 800hz crossover and a center to center distance of approximately 25". This means the nulls are centered about 19deg above and below the front axis. This is where they are centered and given the slopes in the crossover I'd estimate the actual window at about 25-30deg. This isn't bad, but not optimal. The active version specs a 630hz crossover which is much better and should show a window of about 35-40deg.

This doesn't mean the 4722 is bad. In fact, I think it is an excellent speaker and an even better value (IMO its street price is one of the best values outside of DIY if you have the space). With that said, JBL made some compromises like every speaker design makes, especially speakers that are built to sell in large quantities to price conscious buyers such as theater owners.
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post #27 of 325 Old 02-01-2013, 05:10 AM
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With all of this talk regarding adding multiple woofers, I can't help but wonder what would happen if we could find a good mid-range driver and horn and use the Seos12 and the DNA360 as the very top end, then using a good woofer such as the JBL2226j or one of the AE woofers for the really low stuff? You could possibly cross the woofer at 300 to 400hz, (or lower?), then have the dedicated mid-range driver pick up from 400hz and extend all the way up to 3khz or higher?

I would be a whole lot more interested in doing this as opposed to adding a second or third woofer pet cabinet.
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post #28 of 325 Old 02-01-2013, 06:35 AM
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You would not be reinventing the wheel. You'd be using better parts to build something like this: http://www.amazon.com/BIC-RTR-EV15-Eviction-Bi-Ampable-High-Efficiency/dp/B003H3L76I



It is well reviewed and cheap, which is usually a good sign that the fundamental design works. With the parts you are thinking of using, it should rock and roll.
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

With all of this talk regarding adding multiple woofers, I can't help but wonder what would happen if we could find a good mid-range driver and horn and use the Seos12 and the DNA360 as the very top end, then using a good woofer such as the JBL2226j or one of the AE woofers for the really low stuff? You could possibly cross the woofer at 300 to 400hz, (or lower?), then have the dedicated mid-range driver pick up from 400hz and extend all the way up to 3khz or higher?

I would be a whole lot more interested in doing this as opposed to adding a second or third woofer pet cabinet.

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post #29 of 325 Old 02-01-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's an idea tossing around in my head that will affect the whole build....

Those of you that have heard the Noesis compared to SEOS.. how close does it get, and how much better would the Noesis be? I see that this SEOS design impressed beast over his previous JTRs, but with the sale of some of my other equipment, I could afford 2 Noesis towers if I wanted to.

If it equaled the Noesis, no question I would want SEOS, if it comes 90% close, I'll probably still want SEOS. If the Noesis is just that much better and awe inspiring... I think I might head in that direction. Thoughts? Both would be nice upgrades to my JBL 190s, but those have performed admirably as well.
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post #30 of 325 Old 02-01-2013, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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The 40" pre-cut woofer and ported tower baffle is no longer on Eric's site frown.gif
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