DIY Subwoofer ideas needed for dedicated theater. Specs and pictures inside. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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OK So i'm doing a dedicated DIY theater build right now and I'm getting to the point where I want to start thinking about some of the finer details.

Room Dimension:
14' x 19'

Speakers:
Sunfire CRw-2 Inwall speakers
L/R: http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=22
C: http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=21
Surrounds: http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=26

I will have a false wall built in front of in-walls but only a few inches in front.

I do have an opening below the speakers for possible subwoofer placement.

I also have wired for two subs behind the rear seats on the riser.

I've got all the tools for building speakers and the woodworking knowledge, but very little actual speaker knowledge.

What I'm looking for is a recommended woofer/plan/placement setup for this size room. My budget is around $300 for each subwoofer not including amps.

Listening habits: 90% movies, 5% concerts, 5% music

Any ideas would be helpful.

Here is a pic of the front stage:


Here is a pic of the riser:
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post #2 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 09:59 AM
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I am close by in Maple Grove, welcome to the club.

Your budget seems pretty reasonable and with your room size, I would probably be looking at some sealed 15" subs. I am not sure how a sub would sound in the front of the room inside the wall cavity, would you be able to place smaller sealed subs in each front corner and then two in the rear corners?

As for woofers in your price range you have lots of options. The new SI 15" woofers are pretty solid and are in budget:
http://stereointegrity.com/index.php?id=57#

Another one:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-469

How large a box would you feel comfortable fitting in your space? This will dictate whether you can go ported or sealed, and what size drivers. A 3.0-3.5 cu ft box usually models pretty well for 15" drivers, for ported you typically need a larger box that is 5-7cu ft depending on the woofer and your tuning frequency.

This is a good place to start:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html#axzz2K2hFYjJU

Simple to install and, following the guide and asking some questions, you should be able to start modeling different woofers in different sized enclosures and also see ported vs sealed.

This thread is a great starting point:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443078/new-to-diy-faqs-in-here

I was pretty much where you are now late last year, my thread may help you get some ideas:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440277/acks-diy-subwoofer-build-idea-thread-newbie-alert

I also spent considerable time reading through different build threads to get some ideas.
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post #3 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply ack. I obviously have a lot of reading todo.

I think the biggest I want to go with for a woofer is 15". I think I'd like to do two 15".

I think sealed is going to be best for me as it will give me the most opportunity to move it around. With sealed I could keep the size down and also have better luck putting them behind the screen.

There is no room to put them in the front corners.

Do you know of any sealed 15" SI build threads? I'm digging through threads right now trying to find something.
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post #4 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 11:12 AM
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How big is that cubby in the front, is that where you were planning on putting your subs?

The Dayton DVC385-88 is a good choice for a 15. The SIs are also a possibility although if you put 2 in that cubby up front it would be about twice as much $ as the Daytons. I think last sims I did suggested the SI HT15D2 wanted 2.0-2.5 cubic feet per driver.
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post #5 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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The cubby is 27" high, 45" wide and 28" deep.

The subwoofer(s) could stick out the front of the cubby about 4 inches as the false wall will be out a bit.
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post #6 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

Thanks for the reply ack. I obviously have a lot of reading todo.

I think the biggest I want to go with for a woofer is 15". I think I'd like to do two 15".

I think sealed is going to be best for me as it will give me the most opportunity to move it around. With sealed I could keep the size down and also have better luck putting them behind the screen.

There is no room to put them in the front corners.

Do you know of any sealed 15" SI build threads? I'm digging through threads right now trying to find something.

I don't know of any build threads, but when I have time later I would be happy to model the driver in a few different sized sealed enclosures for you. Honestly, I would say 3 to 3.5 cu ft sealed is a good place to start and you can go smaller if you throw more power at them. I built four 3.8 cu ft boxes (I really could have built 3.2 to .3.5 but I have aspirations of potentially adding 18" woofers at some point) and used the Dayton DVC 385-88 drivers when they were $99 apiece at Part's Express.

If you want to save some money you could go with a pair of those as well (they are on sale for $119 right now) and something like an iNuke 1000DSP amp bridged which will give you 1000 watts at 4ohms. If you go with the SI drivers or the Dayton 15 HO's you will want something with some more power, as those drivers can take more power.

The SI drivers seem pretty impressive though, and if you are only looking to build two smaller sealed subs, those 15" drivers with some power thrown at them will model pretty well I suspect.

I will model a few options for you later tonight to see what you think.

One question, when you said you wired for subs, what did you mean? Did you use RCA sub cables, or did you pull speaker wire for passive subs? Also, where will your equipment rack be?
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post #7 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks ack!

For power, I don't mind spending a few hundred on something like the EP4000 (which seems pretty popular).

I wired RCA to the rear corners but also have smurf tube so I can run speaker cable at any time. For the 'cubby' it's open on the other side so I can run anything I want. The media equipment will be in the room behind the screen (open furnace room).

Thanks for your help! I'm on knowledge overload already smile.gif
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post #8 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

Thanks ack!

For power, I don't mind spending a few hundred on something like the EP4000 (which seems pretty popular).

I wired RCA to the rear corners but also have smurf tube so I can run speaker cable at any time. For the 'cubby' it's open on the other side so I can run anything I want. The media equipment will be in the room behind the screen (open furnace room).

Thanks for your help! I'm on knowledge overload already smile.gif

The EP4000 is a great value. The iNuke series is nice if you want some EQ. Smurf tube will definitely make things easy. I love my AT screen with the speakers behind it. I take it you are going with a projector and an AT screen? Those Sunfire speakers look interesting.. Should be a very nice room when it is done.
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post #9 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll check out the iNuke series as well. Yep AT screen and probably a Panasonic AE8000 unless something else comes out before I purchase in a few months.
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post #10 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

I'll check out the iNuke series as well. Yep AT screen and probably a Panasonic AE8000 unless something else comes out before I purchase in a few months.

I am not sure if you have looked into the BenQW7000 at all. I have owned several LCD projectors in the past but am really sold on DLP now. I have an Acer 9500 (DLP), but have some hands on time with the BenQ W7000 with the new firmware and I really am impressed with the PQ. Hard to beat for the price. Bright picture, great DLP sharpness, and solid black levels and the DLP projectors do 3D better than the LCD/Lycos projectors.
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post #11 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 04:22 PM
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Here are some comparisons for you. Yellow is a pair of SI 15 D2 drivers each in a 3ft enclosure powered by 600watts each (RMS). Pink is a pair of Dayton DVC 385-88 drivers each in 3ft enclosure and each powered with 350 watts (RMS). Orange is a pair of Dayton 15" RSS390-4 HO subs in 3cu ft each with 800 watts RMS each.



The Dayton HO 15" drivers and SI 15's model really close based on the above parameters and are up roughly 3db vs the Dayton DVC-385-88 drivers. Of course, the 385's are by far the cheapest, and if you added another 3 cu ft sub with a DVC driver based on the cost savings, it would be equal or better than the others.

Also this is not max SPL/power and all the drivers can take more that the base RMS. But all things equal, this is how they should model for you. Three good options.
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post #12 of 26 Old 02-05-2013, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Here are some comparisons for you. Yellow is a pair of SI 15 D2 drivers each in a 3ft enclosure powered by 600watts each (RMS). Pink is a pair of Dayton DVC 385-88 drivers each in 3ft enclosure and each powered with 350 watts (RMS). Orange is a pair of Dayton 15" RSS390-4 HO subs in 3cu ft each with 800 watts RMS each.



The Dayton HO 15" drivers and SI 15's model really close based on the above parameters and are up roughly 3db vs the Dayton DVC-385-88 drivers. Of course, the 385's are by far the cheapest, and if you added another 3 cu ft sub with a DVC driver based on the cost savings, it would be equal or better than the others.

Also this is not max SPL/power and all the drivers can take more that the base RMS. But all things equal, this is how they should model for you. Three good options.

That plot is very insightful, ack...thanks! I read somewhere that using a HPF around 18Hz is recommended for the HOs...can anyone comment if this is true? The flat packs from Erich for the HOs look nice for a quick build...

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/3-sub-flat-pack.html
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/35-sub-flat-pack.html

Powering them with the iNuke3000DSP in stereo is almost perfect for that RMS rating...
www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx
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You could series/parallel wire 3 of the DVC385-88 to about 5 ohms... (each at 16 ohms and then in parallel). Each driver can take about 400W without a HPF. It would be good for about 112 dB at 20 Hz and 106 dB at 15 Hz... 3 of them would fit in that space if you put the one in the middle a little higher than the other 2.

These 3 would perform slightly better than 2 of the RSS460HO-4s and still be the cheapest option.
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post #14 of 26 Old 02-07-2013, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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OK after doing a lot of research I'm leaning towards two 3 cu ft sealed boxes with SI 15 subs.

So now I can figure out the dimensions of a 3cu box but what kind of bracing is required? Looking at Erich's flat packs, he seems to have an interesting bracing design.

I have yet to find any patterns or examples of how to build the bracing.

Anyone have any ideas on that?

Also, I've seen some people use a single layer of 3/4" mdf and double layer on the front. I've also seen some sealed boxes that are double layer 3/4" all around.

Is there really a major difference?
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post #15 of 26 Old 02-07-2013, 08:24 PM
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Did you buy the sunfire lcr that was on mpls craigslist for a couple months? Honestly for the $$ i'd build a seos setup before using any commercial offerings in that price range. I'm in isanti btw.
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post #16 of 26 Old 02-07-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

OK after doing a lot of research I'm leaning towards two 3 cu ft sealed boxes with SI 15 subs.

So now I can figure out the dimensions of a 3cu box but what kind of bracing is required? Looking at Erich's flat packs, he seems to have an interesting bracing design.

I have yet to find any patterns or examples of how to build the bracing.

Anyone have any ideas on that?

Also, I've seen some people use a single layer of 3/4" mdf and double layer on the front. I've also seen some sealed boxes that are double layer 3/4" all around.

Is there really a major difference?

See this post for minimal bracing ideas:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422986/how-to-put-braces-into-a-subwoofer#post_22274625

You don't have to use dowels, you can use plywood or MDF scraps.

3/4" MDF is more than enough with good bracing. I did the double baffle front just so I could recess the driver and the double baffle does add support. Double layer 3/4" is overkill and a waste of money.

This is the enclosure volume calculator I used:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/enclosure-volume-calculator/#axzz2KHh9LhCQ
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post #17 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Did you buy the sunfire lcr that was on mpls craigslist for a couple months? Honestly for the $$ i'd build a seos setup before using any commercial offerings in that price range. I'm in isanti btw.

Yep I think they are the same ones I got off craigslist. I would built them in a heartbeat but I need in-walls for l/c/r.
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post #18 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

See this post for minimal bracing ideas:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1422986/how-to-put-braces-into-a-subwoofer#post_22274625

You don't have to use dowels, you can use plywood or MDF scraps.

3/4" MDF is more than enough with good bracing. I did the double baffle front just so I could recess the driver and the double baffle does add support. Double layer 3/4" is overkill and a waste of money.

This is the enclosure volume calculator I used:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/enclosure-volume-calculator/#axzz2KHh9LhCQ

Thanks ack! Looks pretty straightforward. I'm leaning more towards an iNuke with an EQ so I have future tweaking possibilities.

3/4" mdf and double baffle with minimal bracing looks good to me.

ack, did you use any cut-sheet software to try and maximize your mdf sheets?
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Just to throw a monkey wrench in things, what about 2x Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" subs? Seems like they would fit in your front space. I believe they would outperform those 15" SIs and it appears you have enough space to make that work. They are $250 each/shipped so about $30/each more than the SI subs.

EDIT: I just saw you don't want to go any larger than 15". Any particular reason for that? I used to think that smaller drivers sounded better, but this forum has opened my eyes. In all the subwoofer shootouts, the 18" drivers are winning in both music and movies.
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post #20 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Just to throw a monkey wrench in things, what about 2x Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" subs? Seems like they would fit in your front space. I believe they would outperform those 15" SIs and it appears you have enough space to make that work. They are $250 each/shipped so about $30/each more than the SI subs.

I did consider 18"s but that would limit the possible locations as I wouldn't be able to put them in the back row of theater. If I knew that they would sound good enough in that space, I would go for 18s.
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post #21 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

I did consider 18"s but that would limit the possible locations as I wouldn't be able to put them in the back row of theater. If I knew that they would sound good enough in that space, I would go for 18s.

You could do 18s in the front and 15s in the back. That space should be plenty big enough for 2 18" drivers. Using Enclosure Volume Calculator I estimate you could have as much as 13.5 cubic feet net internal using 3/4" material and 1000 sq. inches of bracing, plus 2 18" drivers.
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post #22 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Bracing like this puts the emphasis on minimal, read slightly better than nothing. Ideally, you really do not want to tie two parallel walls together.
Bracing like this is the most effective form there is. Tying two parallel walls together is exactly what you want to do. A single brace connecting the middle of two parallel walls has the same stiffening effect as doubling the panel thickness. More than one is even better.

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post #23 of 26 Old 02-08-2013, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

You could do 18s in the front and 15s in the back. That space should be plenty big enough for 2 18" drivers. Using Enclosure Volume Calculator I estimate you could have as much as 13.5 cubic feet net internal using 3/4" material and 1000 sq. inches of bracing, plus 2 18" drivers.

I like the way you think wink.gif

My budget won't let me do that right now but I can see getting 15"s and at some point moving them to the back to add more.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Bracing like this is the most effective form there is. Tying two parallel walls together is exactly what you want to do. A single brace connecting the middle of two parallel walls has the same stiffening effect as doubling the panel thickness. More than one is even better.

I deleted my post because I didn't to get into this here. More bracing is better, I absolutely agree with. The rest I respectfully disagree and will not use another's thread to hash out an off topic subject.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScAndal View Post

Thanks ack! Looks pretty straightforward. I'm leaning more towards an iNuke with an EQ so I have future tweaking possibilities.

3/4" mdf and double baffle with minimal bracing looks good to me.

ack, did you use any cut-sheet software to try and maximize your mdf sheets?

No, I did not use any cut-sheet software, I had some scraps, but not too much. I bought 4'x4' sheets of Baltic Birch (Menards in Maple Grove actually had some decent stuff on sale and it was only about 10% more than MDF) vs 4'x8' since it was easier to handle with the table saw, and that also resulted in some more scrap, but I saved so much money going DIY, I was not too concerned smile.gif
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post #26 of 26 Old 02-19-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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OK so I ordered an iNuke 3000DSP and got the MDF ready to start cutting.

I'm going to be ordering subs this weekend and I'm stuck at 2 vs 4 ohm.

If I am building 2 subs with the potential to go 4, would I be better off going 2 ohm vc woofers? I'm having a hard time grasping the concept.
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