The BMS group buy thread!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, as Andrew(Gorilla) has said in other threads, I have secured us a heafty discount on BMS gear through a group buy. My contact has aggreed to a very large discount off of msrp for an order that exceeds $10k in gross msrp cost. I am waiting on a reply from him at the moment to make sure there won't be any additional shipping cost for each drop, and to get and identifying order number that each party can referrance and make their purchase.

I would like to get this moving as quickly as possible, as I have a Frankenspeaker I want to attempt to show off at the April GTG at Andrew's house:D Feel free to pm me with any questions or for more details, or just post up in the thread.


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post #2 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 08:48 AM
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Sounds cool..........who is BMS again?

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post #3 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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ok I'm back already. Erich has made a very generous offer to us. If the BMS rep will only apply our discount and ship to one location, Erich of DIYsoundgroup has offered to receive the shipment and get each piece/sets of pieces to there recipients!!


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post #4 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 08:52 AM
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they make some really nice compression drivers.
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post #5 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 08:59 AM
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Interested in this. BMS driver + TD12X + SEOS 12 and a crossover for it would be a killer combo.
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post #6 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:00 AM
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Mark me down as a potential - I would need to clear the funding with the better half, but I'd kick myself if I miss out on this!


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post #7 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:04 AM
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BMS is the compression driver used in JTR's new Noesis so I am definitely interested.

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post #8 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:15 AM
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Definitely intrigued, potentially interested depending on timing and specifics and such. Have you guys in your research an planning decided on the SEOS 24 or are there other waveguides being discussed/researched.

Chop, is there a good central location to view products and MSRP? If not could you try to obtain such a list?
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post #9 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:24 AM
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I'm potentially in also for 3 of them. This is almost to sick to pass up even though my build won't be till about a year from now. Great work Jake and all the others involved. BTW Erich is the man to the DIY community
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post #10 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:32 AM
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Which BMS driver though? Or any BMS driver?


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post #11 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Which BMS driver though? Or any BMS driver?

As far as I know it will apply to any BMS woof or CD.


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post #12 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 10:08 AM
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Count me in. smile.gif

Great job on getting this put together.

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post #13 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 10:31 AM
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I'd be interested in a few CDs. Most likely the 4550's which retail for ~$150.

FYI, the SEOS-12/15/18 were designed to match the exit angles of the B&C DE-250, Erich's DNA-360/350 and the BMS 4550. Of course all present designs are for the DE250 or DNA360. The 4550 is very high quality though.

To those considering the BMS coax compression drivers, they retail for ~$700 and require a 1.4", 1.5" or 2" horn throat. It also requires some sort of crossover, active or passive, between the high and mid.

I'm not sure there is a ton of value in trying to clone the Noesis given its $2100 price. Even if you can get the BMS coax at half of retail, you still need two high quality woofers ($750 for TD12X's let's say) and a XR1464 horn for $120. That is $1220 in parts alone. Add in the cost of crossover parts in a 3-way and a cabinet and you aren't far off of JTR's price. Yes, the TD12's are likely better woofers than what JTR uses (I don't know exactly what they use). You would also still need to design your own crossover which is hardly trivial.

There are other options for the BMS coax's though. One good option for guys with lots of space would be the horn from the JBL 4722. It is a 1.5" throat and would definitely take advantage of the BMS's ability to play down to 500hz. It is a better driver than what the 4722 comes with and far cheaper than JBL's upgraded drivers. You can get them from JBL parts for around $100. Same caveats though about designing a crossover. For a woofer, a single high quality pro 18 or 21" would work well. The BMS 18N862 would be a good choice especially if group buy prices are nicely discounted. A single in 170L tuned to ~30hz would be very nice. You could do a pair, but not needed. If I needed a pro 18" that could go full range and the price was nicely discounted the 18N862 would be one of my top choices (the other being the TD18H). I think they retail for around $500-600 but they are fairly new so prices are hard to find.

Another good horn option for the BMS coaxials are the Iwata horns from Poland. They aren't my preference, but many people like them and there are arguments for their use.
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post #14 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 10:34 AM
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So how can I determine which BMS CD to use? Of coarse there is the size but what model? Bhazard when you figure it out let me know since we are doing almost the same build. I am trying to use JTR website for specifications but that is easy to confuse. If anyone knows exact Noesis 212 & 228 models please post the #s.
Thanks
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Thanks Coctostan
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post #15 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

So how can I determine which BMS CD to use? Of coarse there is the size but what model? Bhazard when you figure it out let me know since we are doing almost the same build. I am trying to use JTR website for specifications but that is easy to confuse. If anyone knows exact Noesis 212 & 228 models please post the #s.
Thanks
Chris
Thanks Coctostan

If anything, you would need to wait on a design. I would buy an appropriate driver in advance for any designs that get thrown around to help get the discounted price.
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post #16 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:02 AM
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If anything, you would need to wait on a design. I would buy an appropriate driver in advance for any designs that get thrown around to help get the discounted price.

Ya, I was gonna say. There should be some coordination for a design. Like, BMS 4550 / SEOS12 / BMS *most popular woofer*. If people buy very nice parts willy nilly they better be ready to design a cross over for them.
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post #17 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:05 AM
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Ya, I was gonna say. There should be some coordination for a design. Like, BMS 4550 / SEOS12 / BMS *most popular woofer*. If people buy very nice parts willy nilly they better be ready to design a cross over for them.

X3. Maybe we could work on a few different designs to help spread some ideas.

I know Jake is working with MTG90 on his "uber-build" which would be at the higher end of the price spectrum. It would be cool to see some lower cost / single driver options using the 4550 CD as well.

Tux - You down? biggrin.gif

Assuming they have capacity (namely phase plugs!) it would be cool to work out another GP with AE in partnership with this deal.


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post #18 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post


Tux - You down? biggrin.gif

If someone mailed me a woofer and a CD I'd work out what ever people wanna build, but I just moved and have been spending lots of money getting my new place setup so I won't be buying anything from this group buy. I live in Canada so sending me parts is a pain, but my parents live in Minnesota so I'm there often enough to get parts.

Should pick a woofer that fits into one of Erichs baffles.
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post #19 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:15 AM
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Wait, let me get this straight. You guys are doing a group buy of the compression driver that is used in the Noesis thus creating a Noesis for far cheaper?

Goddam*it. mad.gif

I hope you guys screw it up and it sounds like arse!! What's worse is I bet anything Kevin (mrsmithers) is going to build one and then I'll have to hear it compared to the Noesis. He'll tell me it cost 50 bucks per speaker and then I'll go start the car in the garage with the door closed and take a nap in the back seat.




LALALALALALA... *this thread doesn't exist* .... LALALALALALALA




Who am I kidding - subscribed. frown.gif


Seriously though, after I get my SI subs built I should never come back to AVS again. EVAH!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #20 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post


I'm not sure there is a ton of value in trying to clone the Noesis given its $2100 price. Even if you can get the BMS coax at half of retail, you still need two high quality woofers ($750 for TD12X's let's say) and a XR1464 horn for $120. That is $1220 in parts alone. Add in the cost of crossover parts in a 3-way and a cabinet and you aren't far off of JTR's price. Yes, the TD12's are likely better woofers than what JTR uses (I don't know exactly what they use). You would also still need to design your own crossover which is hardly trivial.

Hey, I missed this before my last post - I feel a little better now... smile.gif Just a little though.


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post #21 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad to hear the interest! As Andrew stated, its for all BMS product. I personally have a design that I am being helped with that will incorporated the 4594 coax and the SEOS24. The goal is not to equal the Noesis and save a few bucks, but to make an effort ot surpass it in a semi, cost no obejct build. For those interested, the BMS distributor actually has xovers for the mid/hf section of the bms coaxials for really a really good price. It makes the project that much easier. It also looks like I will have everything shipped to Erich and he will send them out. Everyone can contact the distributor and pay for there own..once the order is complete, they will ship to Erich, he will break it down and ship to us. A huge effort on his part, he is the man! This is the only was to take full advantage and avoid shipping charges from BMS..one drop by them. If evryone who wants to buy stuff pms me, I will get you the info on the distributor and group buy ID.


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post #22 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:33 AM
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The JTR 212 and 228 are quite different. The 212 uses the BMS 4593ND. It is a coaxial driver so the speaker is a 3-way with a coaxial compression driver (two compression drivers using 1 horn...unique to BMS) and two 8" woofers. The horn is the 18Sound XR1464 which has a 60x40 pattern and a 1.4" throat.

The 228 is a 2-way with a more conventional compression driver and a 1" throat version of the other horn (18Sound XR1064). I don't know which CD this model uses. It may not even be a BMS. If it is a BMS, it is probably either the 4550 or 4552ND.

I have no clue what woofers are used. I have a feeling this is where costs are cut a bit although I'm sure they are quality woofers, just not AE or top of the line BMS woofers.

Remember, designing a crossover for this is not trivial, especially with the coax CD. I really don't see the point of cloning the Noesis because JTR's prices are pretty damn low.


I also forgot to mention that there is the SEOS-24 horn which I think has to be ordered from Poland. This would work well with the BMS 4593ND.
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post #23 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:35 AM
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nvm he posted what i wanted to know
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post #24 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The goal is not to equal the Noesis and save a few bucks, but to make an effort ot surpass it in a semi, cost no obejct build.

Seriously, if you could get a speaker that sounds like the Noesis (or better), has the same sensitivity, BUT has extension like I'm seeing in some of these SEOS builds - wow, un-friggin-real. There is something about running mains only no sub for music that is so appealing whether it's needed or not.

Chopshop, you've come a long way since the custom eD Cinema 12 ordering days!! smile.gif


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post #25 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Glad to hear the interest! As Andrew stated, its for all BMS product. I personally have a design that I am being helped with that will incorporated the 4594 coax and the SEOS24. The goal is not to equal the Noesis and save a few bucks, but to make an effort ot surpass it in a semi, cost no obejct build. For those interested, the BMS distributor actually has xovers for the mid/hf section of the bms coaxials for really a really good price. It makes the project that much easier. It also looks like I will have everything shipped to Erich and he will send them out. Everyone can contact the distributor and pay for there own..once the order is complete, they will ship to Erich, he will break it down and ship to us. A huge effort on his part, he is the man! This is the only was to take full advantage and avoid shipping charges from BMS..one drop by them. If evryone who wants to buy stuff pms me, I will get you the info on the distributor and group buy ID.

Yes, the 4594 or 4593 would be great with the SEOS-24. If executed properly, it should outperform the Noesis. Of course, it will be a much bigger speaker.

I'm not sure I would suggest using the BMS stock crossover though. I've heard that it is far from optimal. Are you going active DSP from the coax to woofer? I think that is an excellent approach. Passive on the coax to get phase solid and decent frequency response around crossover point, then use DSP to treat the rest as a 2-way. There is no benefit from a 3-way active DSP on something like this IMO.
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post #26 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Seriously, if you could get a speaker that sounds like the Noesis (or better), has the same sensitivity, BUT has extension like I'm seeing in some of these SEOS builds - wow, un-friggin-real. There is something about running mains only no sub for music that is so appealing whether it's needed or not.

Chopshop, you've come a long way since the custom eD Cinema 12 ordering days!! smile.gif

Hahaha..for sure dude! I knew that whole ball of crap would come up at some point. Those gusy actually did me a huge favor....turned me on to this world and gave me my $$ when it came down to it. I know this buld will be way out there, but it will be lots of fun. It will be far more than I need, I think, but you can't go faster if the pedal is at the floor, you can however, back off if you start going too fast wink.gif


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post #27 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Yes, the 4594 or 4593 would be great with the SEOS-24. If executed properly, it should outperform the Noesis. Of course, it will be a much bigger speaker.

I'm not sure I would suggest using the BMS stock crossover though. I've heard that it is far from optimal. Are you going active DSP from the coax to woofer? I think that is an excellent approach. Passive on the coax to get phase solid and decent frequency response around crossover point, then use DSP to treat the rest as a 2-way. There is no benefit from a 3-way active DSP on something like this IMO.

To be honest, I am just going to order one of the BMS passives to use (ok for Matt to use) to design the final xovers. I am going to build passives for all the speakers, but mount them in a unique fashion so they can be disabled to compare to some attempts at active. I'm leaking a bit of info early here, but do you guys wanna see a surround with a SEOS24, BMS 4594 and dual 12s...???!!! biggrin.gif:D:D


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post #28 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 11:59 AM
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There is something about running mains only no sub for music that is so appealing whether it's needed or not.
Since I own full range mains but prefer (for now wink.gif) to use my subs with them, I'm curious what you find so appealing. If you like your bass boosted and EQ'd then full range speakers won't allow that in your current system.
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post #29 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 12:05 PM
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Since I own full range mains but prefer (for now wink.gif) to use my subs with them, I'm curious what you find so appealing. If you like your bass boosted and EQ'd then full range speakers won't allow that in your current system.

I'm not sure... back in the mid 90's when I had no idea what I was doing (still don't...) I had the Cerwin Vegas with 15 inch mains and boosted the bass on my graphic eq about as much as possible and was in heaven. Even though that setup would sound like pooo to me now, there is just something about having all the sound coming from 2 just sources.

Now, it's not that big of a deal and I love being able to change the sub volume with a touch of the receiver button.

But, if I had the choice to have my Noesis as is or have the same sound with extension to 20hz I'd take the 20hz even though like you say it really doesn't matter since I'd be using a sub almost 100 percent of the time.


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post #30 of 492 Old 02-07-2013, 12:07 PM
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I guess what I'm saying is I crave overkill. Wanting something even though I don't need it.


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