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post #451 of 1538 Old 04-30-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I agree Mark. You'll end up spending a lot of money going totally full active chop. But hey, it's a mega build so sparing no expense ain't so bad. I just had to laugh cause even in PM before this thread started I remember saying go active on the woofer, the coils alone will suck up power and cost more than the dsp. Glad you're seeing the light wink.gif

Have any construction photos yet ?

I know, you guys were right all along for sure. Not sure why I was hesitant, but after hearing the CAT12s and talking with Mark, I couldn't resist. I appreciate all the good advice along the way leading up to it.
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post #452 of 1538 Old 04-30-2013, 06:58 PM
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Glad you aren't skimping on the rear channels .... I might want to use them as my mains smile.gif
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post #453 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad you aren't skimping on the rear channels .... I might want to use them as my mains smile.gif

The rears will be no slouches for mains...probably more than anyone could really need in a reasonable sized room for sure.

Thinking out loud, Marks' suggestion to look into the Lab c series is a good one I think. We can get the best seperate processor for the job and be a bit more economical with both cash and rack space due to the greater number of channels in each amp. Lab offers the c in 4 and 8 channel configurations with anywhere from 125w to 2200w per channel eek.gif
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post #454 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 10:03 AM
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I would second the option for the Lab Gruppen C series. Have used them locally here a few times. Combined with the BSS London processing would work extremely well.

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post #455 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I would second the option for the Lab Gruppen C series. Have used them locally here a few times. Combined with the BSS London processing would work extremely well.

Sweet, glad to hear you have used them. I figure I could get away with two of the 20.8 and two of the 28.4. That would put 350w per woofer to the mains,so 1400w to woofs, 250w to each surround woofer and 250 to each CD with passive. That cuts the retail cost of amps to a third of what the ipd would be...add in $4-5k for the BSS and I'm under $15k in amps/DSP
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post #456 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 01:55 PM
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Have you considered the ATI amps instead ?
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post #457 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 02:54 PM
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The ATI or Outlaw amplifiers are another very good option with the desired very low noise floor for such efficient compression drivers. Either of these should easily push each driver section past 130dB @ 1m, if not more.

Of course the C48:4 & C68:4 look quite tempting with all that Voltage headroom into 8 Ohms. cool.gif Again I think we'll want to connect one to a compression driver and see what the noise floor is like... There's a big difference in effective noise floor between 95-99dB and 105-110dB @ 1W/1m drivers.

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post #458 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 03:46 PM
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I'm under $15k in amps/DSP

Which is a mere 5 times the entire cost of my HT eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #459 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Have you considered the ATI amps instead ?

I had both ATI and Outlaws, and while they were great, they would not offer a power or cost savings advantage in this case.

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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The ATI or Outlaw amplifiers are another very good option with the desired very low noise floor for such efficient compression drivers. Either of these should easily push each driver section past 130dB @ 1m, if not more.

Of course the C48:4 & C68:4 look quite tempting with all that Voltage headroom into 8 Ohms. cool.gif Again I think we'll want to connect one to a compression driver and see what the noise floor is like... There's a big difference in effective noise floor between 95-99dB and 105-110dB @ 1W/1m drivers.

The 48.4 could be doable if need be too. Believe it or not, with the discount I can get, the LGs actually wind up the most economical.
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post #460 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 05:01 PM
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I agree a daisy chain of 2x4 minidsps would be pretty sad redface.gif What about some of the larger minidsp options? I haven't looked closely but there's some 10x10 and others I believe. Possibly would only need two.

The 10x10HD is the largest. I ordered one a couple weeks ago. It just shipped yesterday. Looking forward to playing with it. smile.gif

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post #461 of 1538 Old 05-01-2013, 07:44 PM
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The 10x10HD is the largest. I ordered one a couple weeks ago. It just shipped yesterday. Looking forward to playing with it. smile.gif

Mike - Are you planning on using the RCA inputs or XLRs on the 10x10? Looking forward to your impressions.
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post #462 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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What's that honey?? A bunch of boxes arrived today???



What are these...maybe sinks???



You get a decent idea fromt the pics in the Rally thread, but in person, these things are huuuuugggeee!! That's one of my Dayton 18 boxes.



Flange



I am trying to geget a template made to add the mounting holes, but am unsure how to recess them a bit...any thoughts? I don't want to botch one of these beauties. I also have to figure out the perfect depth to route the recess in the mounting hole on the baffles (which aren't even started yet, just want to be ready with a template for that too).
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post #463 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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This may be a silly question, but what does anyone know about the limitations of the Crown drivecore series vs the likes of the LGs?? The snr on them is >103, but I am not advanced enough yet to know whether or not they have the xover capabilities I will need. Mark will probably give me a face palm for asking since we haven't even tested yet biggrin.gif, I'm just spit-balling because I have nothing else to play with now...I just looked at Andrew's thread and it go tme thinking about amps. If the xover capabilities were there, it's like $300/channel for power and dsp on the XLS Dcore. Maybe not the best option, but thought I'd bring it up for discussion...
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post #464 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

This may be a silly question, but what does anyone know about the limitations of the Crown drivecore series vs the likes of the LGs?? The snr on them is >103, but I am not advanced enough yet to know whether or not they have the xover capabilities I will need. Mark will probably give me a face palm for asking since we haven't even tested yet biggrin.gif, I'm just spit-balling because I have nothing else to play with now...I just looked at Andrew's thread and it go tme thinking about amps. If the xover capabilities were there, it's like $300/channel for power and dsp on the XLS Dcore. Maybe not the best option, but thought I'd bring it up for discussion...

Jake - Have you checked out the XTI series? They are a little more expensive, but have quite a bit more DSP options. I'm leaning toward trying the XLS2000 or XTI2002 soon.
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post #465 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 09:03 AM
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I didn't know the XLS came with a dsp option?

Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of the cheap dsp options that come piggy backed on these cheap pro amps (when I say cheap, I'm not putting them down) often don't have the dsp capability you actually need to do a proper XO. They're more for basic room eq and subwoofer cross overs in PA applications. You need fine delay, all slopes and slope types, PEQ, LT, etc. Not all dsp is created equal.
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post #466 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 09:07 AM
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Yep, the Drivecores are just going to do simple HP/LP filters, not really DSP per se.

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post #467 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

You get a decent idea fromt the pics in the Rally thread, but in person, these things are huuuuugggeee!! That's one of my Dayton 18 boxes.



Flange



I am trying to geget a template made to add the mounting holes, but am unsure how to recess them a bit...any thoughts? I don't want to botch one of these beauties. I also have to figure out the perfect depth to route the recess in the mounting hole on the baffles (which aren't even started yet, just want to be ready with a template for that too).

Seeing that 18" cutout below the horn gives some crazy perspective. That horn makes the cut out look like a 12" woofer!

It's easy to have one of my shops or John Janowitz cut a template for the recess, and Erich can certainly do the same with his sources, but no probably just doing a few.

I suspect yours showing up means I'll see my delivery from Erich here in the next few days. cool.gif

On the amps, I'm still leaning toward the separate DSP and amplifiers for many reasons. For the Mid/HF, it's simply a matter of low absolute noise floor (which while intertwined, isn't always clear through S/N), and enough Voltage swing into 8 Ohms. I'd prefer to see Voltage capability for 130dB @ 1m, which allows you to not have to worry about clipping. Remember the most audible differentiators of amplifiers are clipping behavior and HF magnitude response vs. load (some of the class D amps change HF response with load). I'm thinking a safe expectation/target is 250W or so into 8 Ohms, but we won't know for sure until some testing is done.

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post #468 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 11:12 AM
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Holy crap Jake. Those things are massive. Looks like a funnel from an oil refinery. biggrin.gif

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post #469 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Seeing that 18" cutout below the horn gives some crazy perspective. That horn makes the cut out look like a 12" woofer!

It's easy to have one of my shops or John Janowitz cut a template for the recess, and Erich can certainly do the same with his sources, but no probably just doing a few.

I suspect yours showing up means I'll see my delivery from Erich here in the next few days. cool.gif

On the amps, I'm still leaning toward the separate DSP and amplifiers for many reasons. For the Mid/HF, it's simply a matter of low absolute noise floor (which while intertwined, isn't always clear through S/N), and enough Voltage swing into 8 Ohms. I'd prefer to see Voltage capability for 130dB @ 1m, which allows you to not have to worry about clipping. Remember the most audible differentiators of amplifiers are clipping behavior and HF magnitude response vs. load (some of the class D amps change HF response with load). I'm thinking a safe expectation/target is 250W or so into 8 Ohms, but we won't know for sure until some testing is done.

It's crazy because I knew all along that they were 15" x 24", but you just don't realize how big that is for a horn until you see them in your hands. They really make a relatively large enclosure(not in the diy world of course cool.gif ) look pretty small. They are really well made too, very high quality look and feel in person. I specifically took pictures of the metal flange to show what a worthwhile upgrade I think it was.

I'm still with ya on the amps/dsp....I was thinking at a level above my paygrade tongue.gif

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Holy crap Jake. Those things are massive. Looks like a funnel from an oil refinery. biggrin.gif

Yeah they are nuts for sure biggrin.gif
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post #470 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 02:39 PM
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They are really well made too, very high quality look and feel in person. I specifically took pictures of the metal flange to show what a worthwhile upgrade I think it was.

only problem is that the metal flange is too f*&%$ng small!... it will likely work for your BMS CDs as the bolt pattern for the BMS is smaller than other CDs I have here (the 4595NDs I got on the group buy seem to line up to the pre-drilled holes on the SEOS24 metal flange)... but for those of us that explicitly ordered them for the big JBL CDs with beryllium replacement diagphragms, the metal flange doesn't even cover where the mounting holes are supposed to be if I wanted to drill them....the entire flange sits inside the threads sticking out of the 2447Hs I have here.... completely useless and beyond idiotic and stupid......

I thought I'd calmed down after last night when I went to hook them up.... nope... still beyond pissed....

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post #471 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 02:48 PM
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as long as the opening for the diapram lines up you should be able to fab something that attaches to the existing flange and extendes to the holes on the 2447Hs
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post #472 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 02:54 PM
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as long as the opening for the diapram lines up you should be able to fab something that attaches to the existing flange and extendes to the holes on the 2447Hs

Yes, but the point is I shouldn't have to.... that's why you spec exactly what CD will be attached to it when placing the order... when you're spending $1200 for horns and you spec the units that will be attached to them, you shouldn't have to jury rig something to make them work when they arrive.... at least, that's my expectation...

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post #473 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 05:32 PM
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Hey now, those two 1.5" SEOS-24's weren't $1200. smile.gif

As mentioned, it was just you and I that ordered a pair of them for 1.5" JBL intakes. I haven't looked at them closely yet, but my guess is that it shouldn't be too horribly difficult to make it all work out. But it is a bummer that they don't work right out of the box. I don't have too much control over these group buys except that I put in the order and package them when they arrive.

So how much cursing did you do my friend? biggrin.gif


My reaction:

Removed bubble wrap, liked the waveguide.

Tried lining up CD's threaded rods into mounting flange, screws did not line up.

"Bummer, I'll sit this over here in my living room and look at it later."



Year 2016......"Hey what's this shiny thing behind my couch?"

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post #474 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 05:48 PM
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Year 2016......"Hey what's this shiny thing behind my couch?"

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And here I thought I was the only one that did that. cool.gif

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post #475 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 06:13 PM
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Hey now, those two 1.5" SEOS-24's weren't $1200. smile.gif

As mentioned, it was just you and I that ordered a pair of them for 1.5" JBL intakes. I haven't looked at them closely yet, but my guess is that it shouldn't be too horribly difficult to make it all work out. But it is a bummer that they don't work right out of the box. I don't have too much control over these group buys except that I put in the order and package them when they arrive.

So how much cursing did you do my friend? biggrin.gif


My reaction:

Removed bubble wrap, liked the waveguide.

Tried lining up CD's threaded rods into mounting flange, screws did not line up.

"Bummer, I'll sit this over here in my living room and look at it later."



Year 2016......"Hey what's this shiny thing behind my couch?"

biggrin.gif

nope, they weren't $1200 by themselves... but if the flange is wrong on the SEOS24, how much you want to bet the flange is the same wrong size on the $400 each Iwata-300 horns I also ordered?.... and won't work with the JBL 2446 2" throat CDs that I specifically ordered those horns for?... $400 + $400 +$200 + $200 + shipping + *many* months of waiting...... and I still can't listen to the JBL CDs with the beryllium diaphragms and get a feel for what they sound like?... it's more than a little frustrating... and yes.... many, many, many curse words have left my mouth in the last 24 hours....

It's great that you do this Erich, but here's the flip side of the group buy scenario with you... I have no recourse... It's a pretty thankless, great deed you do... but I'm left with the horns in the physical condition they showed up in, both as it relates to the flanges and the other issues we discussed.... I'm honestly wishing I went direct and paid the premium shipping so at least I have recourse to go back to them on this... in the grand scheme of things, $1200 is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the money I've wasted on this hobby and definitely not even worth noting compared to the money I've dropped trying out new gear for my commercial business.... my frustration will pass and I'll blow it off as a life lesson..... it's more about the turnaround time on these things.... I'm remembering now why I abandoned DIY related things years ago other than my own custom subs I'd build for customers... these ridiculous delays and wrong things showing up is just not worth the headache....

Can it be made to work? Sure... But again, I shouldn't have to fabricate something to do that given I specifically ordered them for the JBL drivers (the BMS group buy purchases I made were a last minute thing months after I'd ordered and paid for the horns from Poland)... I can still use them as is on the BMS CDs.... but the primary purpose for these purchases was to listen to the JBLs... and I can't do that without fabricating something to basterdize it into working... that pisses me off after waiting this long....

Shane
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post #476 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 06:36 PM
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nope, they weren't $1200 by themselves... but if the flange is wrong on the SEOS24, how much you want to bet the flange is the same wrong size on the $400 each Iwata-300 horns I also ordered?.... and won't work with the JBL 2446 2" throat CDs that I specifically ordered those horns for?... $400 + $400 +$200 + $200 + shipping + *many* months of waiting...... and I still can't listen to the JBL CDs with the beryllium diaphragms and get a feel for what they sound like?... it's more than a little frustrating... and yes.... many, many, many curse words have left my mouth in the last 24 hours....

It's great that you do this Erich, but here's the flip side of the group buy scenario with you... I have no recourse... It's a pretty thankless, great deed you do... but I'm left with the horns in the physical condition they showed up in, both as it relates to the flanges and the other issues we discussed.... I'm honestly wishing I went direct and paid the premium shipping so at least I have recourse to go back to them on this... in the grand scheme of things, $1200 is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the money I've wasted on this hobby and definitely not even worth noting compared to the money I've dropped trying out new gear for my commercial business.... my frustration will pass and I'll blow it off as a life lesson..... it's more about the turnaround time on these things.... I'm remembering now why I abandoned DIY related things years ago other than my own custom subs I'd build for customers... these ridiculous delays and wrong things showing up is just not worth the headache....

Can it be made to work? Sure... But again, I shouldn't have to fabricate something to do that given I specifically ordered them for the JBL drivers (the BMS group buy purchases I made were a last minute thing months after I'd ordered and paid for the horns from Poland)... I can still use them as is on the BMS CDs.... but the primary purpose for these purchases was to listen to the JBLs... and I can't do that without fabricating something to basterdize it into working... that pisses me off after waiting this long....


just buy 8 small c clamps and your good to go.
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post #477 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 08:22 PM
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... how much you want to bet the flange is the same wrong size on the $400 each Iwata-300 horns I also ordered?.... and won't work with the JBL 2446 2" throat CDs that I specifically ordered those horns for?...

I am running IWATA 300s with JBL 2446 CDs and Truextent Be diaphragms. I've had them for a while as mine came on the first pallet. I am using a JBL 2509A bracket. Last I knew Erich had a few for sale. They work great! No problems mating them up. That combination is the best investment that I've made in a long time. Thank you Erich for facilitating that! 'Chillax' and enjoy your shiny new toys.
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post #478 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 09:36 PM
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You seem to be the only one having problems HT Doc.
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post #479 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

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Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

... how much you want to bet the flange is the same wrong size on the $400 each Iwata-300 horns I also ordered?.... and won't work with the JBL 2446 2" throat CDs that I specifically ordered those horns for?...

I am running IWATA 300s with JBL 2446 CDs and Truextent Be diaphragms. I've had them for a while as mine came on the first pallet. I am using a JBL 2509A bracket. Last I knew Erich had a few for sale. They work great! No problems mating them up. That combination is the best investment that I've made in a long time. Thank you Erich for facilitating that! 'Chillax' and enjoy your shiny new toys.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Carl,

Wasn't the first run where they made the horns with mdf mounting rings not metal? And didn't a few of them have issues of cracking?

If you have a metal mounting flange that works with the jbls then that pisses me off even more if mine show up with these same seos24 flanges....if they've built it before, they should know how to do it again. If the iwatas show up for me with correct sized metal mounting flanges, then that is even worse for them to get it right on one item in the order and wrong on the second set. I can't confirm or deny because I'm still waiting on the iwatas... Erich is supposed to get them shipped this weekend hopefully. I already have the jbl 2509 mounts as a temp option for design. If the speakers stay, likely going to have something built that will look a little nicer and blend with the aesthetic better..

Shane
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post #480 of 1538 Old 05-02-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

Carl,

Wasn't the first run where they made the horns with mdf mounting rings not metal? And didn't a few of them have issues of cracking?

If you have a metal mounting flange that works with the jbls then that pisses me off even more if mine show up with these same seos24 flanges....if they've built it before, they should know how to do it again. If the iwatas show up for me with correct sized metal mounting flanges, then that is even worse for them to get it right on one item in the order and wrong on the second set. I can't confirm or deny because I'm still waiting on the iwatas... Erich is supposed to get them shipped this weekend hopefully. I already have the jbl 2509 mounts as a temp option for design. If the speakers stay, likely going to have something built that will look a little nicer and blend with the aesthetic better..

Yea, my IWATAs have MDF mounting rings and I had one of the rings break completely free of the horn body. But it was an easy fix and a good excuse to sniff resin fumes! I bought a fiberglass boat repair kit and reattached the ring. I then set about building up the area where the horn attached to the ring using fiberglass that came in that same kit. Add in a spritz of paint and all was good! The repair is invisible. I've had no problems since. I shared my experience with our friends in Poland, they modified their build process and we are both wiser from the experience.

It is easy to crack the fiberglass if you over tighten the CD mounting bolts. It is way too easy to do! To avoid cracks I always use a rubber washer under the bolt head where it makes contact with the mounting flange. I use rubber washers on the SEOS waveguides as well.

I'm sure somebody here would be eager to buy your pair of SEOS 24 waveguides should you decide that you no longer want them. They look to have the potential to be a phenomenal performer.
______________
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Carl Huff
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