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post #601 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well guys, it's a sad day. With the cost of my house spiralling out of control and some new family obligations, I will no longer have the time or $$ to complete this project the way it deserves. I am going to have to sell off the components. The BMS CD are spoken for, but I have 20 AE TD15M in the classifieds. It's not all bad, I will be able to do something nice, just not this nice. The extras required to do it right will push this above the six figure mark as a whole and I just can't do it. It's a sad diy day for me, but some fols will get a second chance at AE group buy prices with my woofs.


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post #602 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 12:59 PM
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Sorry to hear this, I was looking for some competition. biggrin.gif

If your CD's have a 1.4" exit, LMK if your BMS CD buyer backs out.

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post #603 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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I don't understand? Can't you just scale it back? Even 1 woofer per channel would still be a really nice speaker and significantly reduce the price. If the exotic amps and dsps were to pricey, go passive or with a meager minidsp like us common folk.
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post #604 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:20 PM
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There's also Crown's XTi amps...IMO, they're not crazy expensive, plus they're simpler to use and more reliable than the MiniDSP.

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post #605 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:21 PM
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I don't understand? Can't you just scale it back? Even 1 woofer per channel would still be a really nice speaker and significantly reduce the price. If the exotic amps and dsps were to pricey, go passive or with a meager minidsp like us common folk.

That's what I'm thinking. No reason you couldn't do a 15m with a 4550 and have a killer setup for a 10th the price.

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post #606 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:26 PM
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or do you still have your Sentinels?

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post #607 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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To be honest guys, I would just rather start over. The Sentinels are gone too. Once I get all of this gear moved I will buy a few Noesis or CAT12s and be done for a while. If I'm gonna diy it, it's gotta be nuts, otherwise, the time I don't have now is worth a couple bucks. I'm broken up about it honestly because I had such wild dreams for it, but it doesn't change the outcome.


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post #608 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:36 PM
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That sucks man, it was going to be one hell of a system.
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post #609 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:36 PM
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Dang chop...I agree with the guys above. Since the CD's are spoken for, maybe keep three of the AE's and work something out later. At least you'd have something for the front three to design/play with. I know a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, though.

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post #610 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

To be honest guys, I would just rather start over.
So does that mean you are back to looking at ED Cinema 12s again. smile.gif
It has been a long enjoyable journey. You came close.wink.gif
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post #611 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 01:56 PM
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610 posts. no build pictures. then dead.

what a bummer!!

why the JTR's or Seaton's though. those are way more expensive than using three of those TDM's. Erich could do a baffle for you and make it really easy.

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post #612 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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Well it was a good mental excersize tongue.gif

Still think you should consider DIY. Even get the cabs built by someone to save time. Not that your speakers of choice are bad, I just think DIY has a lot of advantages as far as, custom color, look, fit to room, performance match to room, etc. And you already have the parts. Either way, good luck.
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post #613 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 03:14 PM
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Well it was a good mental excersize tongue.gif

And you already have the parts.

And there just happens to be a xover schematic for a 4 ohm TD15m and 4550. biggrin.gif

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post #614 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 03:59 PM
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I'm sorry. I smell an over-ruling by the finance committee. If you know what I mean!! LOL

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post #615 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Well guys, it's a sad day. With the cost of my house spiralling out of control and some new family obligations, I will no longer have the time or $$ to complete this project the way it deserves. I am going to have to sell off the components. The BMS CD are spoken for, but I have 20 AE TD15M in the classifieds. It's not all bad, I will be able to do something nice, just not this nice. The extras required to do it right will push this above the six figure mark as a whole and I just can't do it. It's a sad diy day for me, but some fols will get a second chance at AE group buy prices with my woofs.

That sucks. I was kind of hoping I'd have an 'uber mains build buddy' or something this summer. tongue.gif

You gotta do what you gotta do though. I get it.

You should prolly hang onto a trio of the TD15's though and maybe just make something small and passive with them. Since you have em', I mean.


Either way, good luck sir! Another attempt is for the future. smile.gif


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post #616 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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And there just happens to be a xover schematic for a 4 ohm TD15m and 4550. biggrin.gif

This thought did cross my mind, I just don't know. Even a single with the 4594 in the lcr and 4550 in the surrounds could have been good. The sale of the other nine woofers could fund the entire remainder of the project at that point. My issue with that is that I don't know if that would outperform a CAT12 or Noesis setup, which could be funded by the sale of all existing gear, and I would still need a xover design or active gear. I really think it's going to be best to unload it all. I feel like I keep getting in over my head with the builds. I'm gonna diy the build out of the room,etc, so I'll see have some diy pride there. I'd like to think I'm capable of this, but it's false confidence and I don't have the cash flow to pay someone to babysit the whole thing.


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post #617 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

This thought did cross my mind, I just don't know. Even a single with the 4594 in the lcr and 4550 in the surrounds could have been good. The sale of the other nine woofers could fund the entire remainder of the project at that point. My issue with that is that I don't know if that would outperform a CAT12 or Noesis setup, which could be funded by the sale of all existing gear, and I would still need a xover design or active gear. I really think it's going to be best to unload it all. I feel like I keep getting in over my head with the builds. I'm gonna diy the build out of the room,etc, so I'll see have some diy pride there. I'd like to think I'm capable of this, but it's false confidence and I don't have the cash flow to pay someone to babysit the whole thing.

Chop. Props for calling it. I feel you on the pride front. Nothing but love for ya brother.

Hopefully this will take a load off of your shoulders and let you focus on other (more important) things.

 

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post #618 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Chop. Props for calling it. I feel you on the pride front. Nothing but love for ya brother.

Hopefully this will take a load off of your shoulders and let you focus on other (more important) things.

Thanks Austin, appreciate it. It's a kick in the nads to realize that I don't have the skill, but I guess if I did, I'd own a speaker company and not an insurance agency biggrin.gif

It will help for sure.


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post #619 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Chop. Props for calling it. I feel you on the pride front. Nothing but love for ya brother.

Hopefully this will take a load off of your shoulders and let you focus on other (more important) things.

Thanks Austin, appreciate it. It's a kick in the nads to realize that I don't have the skill, but I guess if I did, I'd own a speaker company and not an insurance agency biggrin.gif

It will help for sure.

Fully agreed on taking a load off, as this was a pretty lofty project.

I think many also forget you are already building boxes for 16! RS-18 drivers you already have in your possesion. If you take on building any of the detail work in the theater like columns and such, you can quickly have a LOT of work on your hands with a lot of potential savings and means to personalize.

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post #620 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 08:51 PM
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keep 5 of the td15m's and go with a seos-based top end.

that will cut the speaker cost to next to nothing for you and yet still have a deep 99th percentile performer.

btw, imax is 5.1 (plus a "god" channel that rarely gets used).

a tactical retreat is one thing. a full surrender is another. no need for surrender here. ;-)

not sure if something like this would work for you: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=182.0

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post #621 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 08:58 PM
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keep 5 of the td15m's and go with a seos-based top end.

that will cut the speaker cost to next to nothing for you and yet still have a deep 99th percentile performer.

btw, imax is 5.1 (plus a "god" channel that rarely gets used).

a tactical retreat is one thing. a full surrender is another. no need for surrender here. ;-)

not sure if something like this would work for you: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=182.0

+1

By all accounts this should be an extremely capable speaker, and you've already eaten the bulk of the cost.


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post #622 of 1538 Old 05-28-2013, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Fully agreed on taking a load off, as this was a pretty lofty project.

I think many also forget you are already building boxes for 16! RS-18 drivers you already have in your possesion. If you take on building any of the detail work in the theater like columns and such, you can quickly have a LOT of work on your hands with a lot of potential savings and means to personalize.

ror... I did indeed forget about that. Should keep you occupied for awhile.

biggrin.gif

 

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post #623 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 03:40 AM
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No shame in doing the right thing, my hats off to you, Chop! I still say that you should keep 3 of the TD15's and 3 of the BMS CD's and use them to build a nice enclosure consisting of a single TD15 and BMS CD in each speaker with active crossovers through some Crown
XTI amps. But, if you decide on selling all of that and just going with a turn key JTR or Seaton then I completely understand. I hope that what ever you choose, you are happy in the end! By the way, you have a PM!
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post #624 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 04:38 AM
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This build would have been nice once all the details came together but it was going to take alot of effort.
There has to be some satisfaction with picking up a phone, making one call, and 2-4 weeks later 3 Cat 12s (if not Noesis 212s) show up on the front porch.
Talk about effortless.biggrin.gifsmile.gif
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When someone or anyone states that they are looking to build a speaker that "outperforms" The Cat 12s or Noesis 212, Other than price, What specifically is the goal to better performance?
How big would a room have to be to notice a performance gain? How big would the final speaker be?
Since these 2 speakers are noted for ungodly SPL and crystal clear clarity what is there to outperform?
$2G for the passive and $3600 active w/dsp in a cabinet 40"x16.5"x 14" size cabinet is hard to beat.
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post #625 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 09:44 AM
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That's a bummer to hear Chop, but you have to do what is smart for yourself. Time is exceptionally valuable and it sounds like that is the biggest sticking point (it always is for me). Have you unloaded the SEOS-24's? How many did you get?

Honestly I still think that you could make something happen on the DIY front that scales back the cost AND time while not sacrificing significant performance.

First, I would stick to simpler surrounds (I can't recall if you were still looking at SEOS-24 surrounds). Something like passive SEOS + 4550's an a single TD15M. You could even use a flat pack or baffle kit.

Second, I would downsize to dual TD15M's with the SEOS-24 in between. It would be very similar to this speaker which also uses a BMS coax on a similar sized horn: http://www.professionalhomecinema.com/loudspeakers/scr-2215sm1/

The surrounds would be passive and the LCR's would be hybrid passive/active DSP. Simple passive between HF and mid on horn. Active DSP between woofers and horn. I would suggest either a Behringer DCX2496 or MiniDSP 8x8. For amps, you could do 3 Behringer EP4000's. Your LCR amps + DSP would be $1200-1500...less than the cost of a single amp+DSP in your prior plan.

The final question is box building. If you are building your own room, you might as well build these enclosures. Since they will be behind a screenwall, they don't have to look pretty. 2x2's are good for bracing. Have the baffles CNC'd.

Of course, if you have just lost the will, I understand. I just think you could get 99% of your original planned performance for no more than about 20% of the cost and complexity.

One other thing, I would suggest farming out some of the HT build. Many of those tasks are far more time consuming (and relatively cheap on labor) than building 3 speakers.
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post #626 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 09:52 AM
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^ This is exactly what I would be after in my "uber" (relative to me, this is uber!) build. A pair of TD15's paired with the BMS and a large horn. I'd be willing to chip in for time/effort/costs in crossover and baffle design if that helps, Chop. biggrin.gif


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post #627 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

This build would have been nice once all the details came together but it was going to take alot of effort.
There has to be some satisfaction with picking up a phone, making one call, and 2-4 weeks later 3 Cat 12s (if not Noesis 212s) show up on the front porch.
Talk about effortless.biggrin.gifsmile.gif
Chris W

When someone or anyone states that they are looking to build a speaker that "outperforms" The Cat 12s or Noesis 212, Other than price, What specifically is the goal to better performance?
How big would a room have to be to notice a performance gain? How big would the final speaker be?
Since these 2 speakers are noted for ungodly SPL and crystal clear clarity what is there to outperform?
$2G for the passive and $3600 active w/dsp in a cabinet 40"x16.5"x 14" size cabinet is hard to beat.

A Noesis clone is a waste of time and money IMO even with GB prices. There isn't a huge amount of margin in them making them an exceptional value. The small (relative) size is the area where a DIYer can make improvements over the Cat's and Noesis. The horn can be much larger controlling directivity lower and potentially a better horn too. Larger woofers in larger cabinets can also be used for greater output with more extension.

With that said, how much difference would there be? Well, there is no way to quantify that since you can meet the Noesis specs with something like a QSC KW153 for half the price when you account for amps...but are they as good? I doubt it but how far off are they? You can measure things like directivity control and distortion, but even translating that into relative subjective terms is not possible.
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post #628 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a bummer to hear Chop, but you have to do what is smart for yourself. Time is exceptionally valuable and it sounds like that is the biggest sticking point (it always is for me). Have you unloaded the SEOS-24's? How many did you get?

Honestly I still think that you could make something happen on the DIY front that scales back the cost AND time while not sacrificing significant performance.

First, I would stick to simpler surrounds (I can't recall if you were still looking at SEOS-24 surrounds). Something like passive SEOS + 4550's an a single TD15M. You could even use a flat pack or baffle kit.

Second, I would downsize to dual TD15M's with the SEOS-24 in between. It would be very similar to this speaker which also uses a BMS coax on a similar sized horn: http://www.professionalhomecinema.com/loudspeakers/scr-2215sm1/

The surrounds would be passive and the LCR's would be hybrid passive/active DSP. Simple passive between HF and mid on horn. Active DSP between woofers and horn. I would suggest either a Behringer DCX2496 or MiniDSP 8x8. For amps, you could do 3 Behringer EP4000's. Your LCR amps + DSP would be $1200-1500...less than the cost of a single amp+DSP in your prior plan.

The final question is box building. If you are building your own room, you might as well build these enclosures. Since they will be behind a screenwall, they don't have to look pretty. 2x2's are good for bracing. Have the baffles CNC'd.

Of course, if you have just lost the will, I understand. I just think you could get 99% of your original planned performance for no more than about 20% of the cost and complexity.

One other thing, I would suggest farming out some of the HT build. Many of those tasks are far more time consuming (and relatively cheap on labor) than building 3 speakers.

I think these are solid ideas too. I have convinced myself that the CAT or Noesis would be better than my effort at the above though, that's my issue. Maybe with some convincing, I would sell 6 of my woofers instead and keep the rest...also sell 6 of the seos24 and keep three for the mains.

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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

^ This is exactly what I would be after in my "uber" (relative to me, this is uber!) build. A pair of TD15's paired with the BMS and a large horn. I'd be willing to chip in for time/effort/costs in crossover and baffle design if that helps, Chop. biggrin.gif

You will have a pm shortly sir biggrin.gif


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post #629 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I think these are solid ideas too. I have convinced myself that the CAT or Noesis would be better than my effort at the above though, that's my issue. Maybe with some convincing, I would sell 6 of my woofers instead and keep the rest...also sell 6 of the seos24 and keep three for the mains.

It will be easier to find buyers for fewer of the items. There might not even be a tangible difference in performance between twin TD15Ms vs quad TD15Ms. The LCRs are far more important than surrounds so I would put the most funds into those. I do think the SEOS-24 has advantages over the Noesis horn which is partly chosen to fit a relatively skinny speaker and because it can be rotated for laying the speaker on its side in center usage. The electronics would be a fraction of the price (and you would need amps for the Noesis too). I would be surprised if there was any subjective difference between using a set of EP4000's vs some uber amp from Lab on your mains. The upside is that if you wanted to try that down the road you could. Most of those uber-amps are 10x the price though. Going with either a MiniDSP 8x8 or a DCX2496 is better IMO because they are both known quantities that are easy to use. Most of the higher end pro stuff gets more complicated and you will find fewer DIYers that can help.

Of course, there isn't much reason to DIY if you aren't enjoying it. It isn't really a way to save money in this case. I haven't heard a noesis, but I have zero doubt it is a wonderful speaker and it is definitely an excellent value. If you just don't have the will to get the DIY speakers done it is probably the smartest way to go.
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post #630 of 1538 Old 05-29-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I think these are solid ideas too. I have convinced myself that the CAT or Noesis would be better than my effort at the above though, that's my issue. Maybe with some convincing, I would sell 6 of my woofers instead and keep the rest...also sell 6 of the seos24 and keep three for the mains.

This is what I was thinking about today as well. Do your 3 speakers up front with the SEOS-24, then ease way.....way back on the surrounds.

You've heard the Fusion-15's so you know that your surrounds will never need to get that loud. The plastic SEOS-15 is coming in a couple months. There will be some designs using it

If you don't want to wait that long for surrounds, you would be very surprised at how nice the speaker is that Bwaslo designed with the 15" Buyout Celestion woofer from Parts Express. Believe it or not, it's a very nice woofer. Bwaslo said it was one of the smoothest he's tested.

If it helps at all, I will get some flat packs made up for any of the smaller speakers you need. The larger ones might be difficult to ship.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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