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post #631 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

This is what I was thinking about today as well. Do your 3 speakers up front with the SEOS-24, then ease way.....way back on the surrounds.
+1. A SEOS-24 and one or two TD-15M's per channel up front, SEOS-15 and a single TD-15M in the rear will still be very impressive. Plus, it would be possible to do each passive, tremendously cutting down on the channels of amplification needed.

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post #632 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 02:59 PM
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LOL, remind me never to try to quit drinking or go on a diet or anything like that with you guys around. biggrin.gif
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post #633 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, u guys have convinced me. I will be selling 6 of the TD drivers and 6 of the seos 24s. Andrew has first claim to the TD and three of the waveguides. If he decides not to, I will update the for sale thread. Dcx and ep ps to start. Passover with 4550 in the surrounds


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post #634 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 03:46 PM
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Alright! Welcome back!

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post #635 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright! Welcome back!
Thanks! I'm gonna change my screen name to bi polar:). I'm glad I had some time to think about it, and Andrew to unknowingly persuade me


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post #636 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 04:03 PM
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LOL, remind me never to try to quit drinking or go on a diet or anything like that with you guys around. biggrin.gif

+1

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Thanks! I'm gonna change my screen name to bi polar:). I'm glad I had some time to think about it, and Andrew to unknowingly persuade me

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post #637 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 04:21 PM
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It will be easier to find buyers for fewer of the items. There might not even be a tangible difference in performance between twin TD15Ms vs quad TD15Ms. The LCRs are far more important than surrounds so I would put the most funds into those. I do think the SEOS-24 has advantages over the Noesis horn which is partly chosen to fit a relatively skinny speaker and because it can be rotated for laying the speaker on its side in center usage. The electronics would be a fraction of the price (and you would need amps for the Noesis too). I would be surprised if there was any subjective difference between using a set of EP4000's vs some uber amp from Lab on your mains. The upside is that if you wanted to try that down the road you could. Most of those uber-amps are 10x the price though. Going with either a MiniDSP 8x8 or a DCX2496 is better IMO because they are both known quantities that are easy to use. Most of the higher end pro stuff gets more complicated and you will find fewer DIYers that can help.

Of course, there isn't much reason to DIY if you aren't enjoying it. It isn't really a way to save money in this case. I haven't heard a noesis, but I have zero doubt it is a wonderful speaker and it is definitely an excellent value. If you just don't have the will to get the DIY speakers done it is probably the smartest way to go.

That is what I am going to do. Using the MinDSP 10x10HD for active crossover on my SEOS-12/TD12M front stage and passive on the surrounds. Surrounds are JBL 8340 (not 8340A) All the remaining items I need to do this should be here by middle of next week.

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post #638 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Alright, u guys have convinced me. I will be selling 6 of the TD drivers and 6 of the seos 24s. Andrew has first claim to the TD and three of the waveguides. If he decides not to, I will update the for sale thread. Dcx and ep ps to start. Passover with 4550 in the surrounds
Very wise decision!cool.gif
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post #639 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 05:08 PM
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Sounds like you're going to end up with a supremely capable system ChopShop, one that's going to be the envy of most of us here, even if it isn't the ridiculously overkill uber-epicness that you had bouncing around in your head for a while. smile.gif
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post #640 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 06:21 PM
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Sounds like you're going to end up with a supremely capable system ChopShop, one that's going to be the envy of most of us here, even if it isn't the ridiculously overkill uber-epicness that you had bouncing around in your head for a while. smile.gif

I agree. Heck if I could have fit the SEOS15's or SEOS 24's, I would have used them. smile.gif

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post #641 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have been doing some talking with folks and running some ideas. I think it will be dual 15m's in the mains with SEOS24/4594 combo and SEOS15 with dna360 and the TD15M in the surrounds. Andrew is very close to becoming my "build buddy" on this one biggrin.gif If we go at it, I agree that it will be killer.

I think I got so into the idea that the only way to build the ultimate setup was to dual quad 15's and $20k in amps, exact match surrounds, yadda yadda..you guys know the drill. In the end, the reality is that if we pull off this "tame" version of them, it will be unreal performance and no $$ wasted.


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post #642 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 07:06 PM
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still pretty crazy to use TD15's for surrounds. tongue.gif

what about some Fusion 10-Max's?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion10-max-kit.html

those would still be overkill.

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post #643 of 1518 Old 05-29-2013, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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still pretty crazy to use TD15's for surrounds. tongue.gif

what about some Fusion 10-Max's?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion10-max-kit.html

those would still be overkill.

It is, but I have them all so I may as well. If I didn't have any of it, I would do something smaller for sure on the surrounds, but what the heck. At this point, it will cost about $225 a piece to finish the surrounds including xover components. That's just how I justify it to myslef tongue.gif


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post #644 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Have I mentioned yet how excited I am that I have decide to keep moving on and do a more reasonable project biggrin.gif


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post #645 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 11:34 AM
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I have mentioned yet how excited I am that I have decide to keep moving on and do a more reasonable project biggrin.gif

I am glad to hear that Jake. After my own comparo, I really don't think you are missing that much compared to your uber build. I think you'll get 95% of the performance for a fraction of the cost.

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post #646 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 05:53 PM
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It is, but I have them all so I may as well. If I didn't have any of it, I would do something smaller for sure on the surrounds, but what the heck. At this point, it will cost about $225 a piece to finish the surrounds including xover components. That's just how I justify it to myslef tongue.gif

My surrounds are going to be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif Heck my mains will be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif It will still be one heck of an HT. Are you now interested in the Sony VW1000ES we talked about?

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post #647 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 06:13 PM
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That's great Chop...but don't do it because of peer pressure. Do it because you want to do it. It will still require some effort.

Dual TD15M with SEOS-24 is exceptionally capable. Think about how most medium sized commercial theaters use something like a JBL 4722 which has 2 15" woofers and a single coax on a large horn. Now upgrade the woofers and use a better compression driver...and put them in a room about 1/5th to 1/10th as big. Oh and use a better horn (just my opinion) and a more refined crossover. Honestly, I'm not sure there would be an audible advantage going to 4 of the TD15's. It is way past the point of diminishing returns. This isn't like adding subwoofers to dig deeper. Dual TD15Ms is probably lower in harmonic distortion than your electronic signal chain...or close enough.

My personal opinion is that people get way too picky about surrounds. I generally just want good coverage along with enough capability to not sound strained. Even having different compression drivers, especially if tuned to a similar target, has little actual effect. Very few top top top end multi-channel mastering studios would use surrounds as capable as you originally proposed. Even your SEOS15 surrounds are more capable than most surround mastering setups I've seen.

A SEOS-15 (with 4550 or 360) and a TD15M per surround is more capable than 99.999% of HT mains. The SEOS-24 with dual TD15M's won't even be a huge step up (although I do think there are advantages to the point source playing down to ~500-700hz).

One other thing. The DCX with EP amps is a great place to start. If, down the road, you want to upgrade you could buy an RS20 and whatever uber amps you want to try. The RS20 is capable of handling the crossovers in your mains. If you want the best, that is the way to go. I frankly don't see much advantage over the DCX or MiniDSP until you get to that level. Most other DSP xovers are just better for pro use and won't show much to the home user. Your original proposal included about $10k worth of highend pro amps along with a few $K of DSP. I'd rather buy $1k worth of Behringer amps and a $10k RS20 processor to be honest. The DCX will definitely hold you over (major understatement...there are lots of crazy audiophiles who swear by the DCX and you can even mod it if you feel it is needed).
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post #648 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 06:49 PM
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Coctostan, how do you think dual TD15x will work with seos 24 (in the proposed set up) in place of TD15ms?
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post #649 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My surrounds are going to be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif Heck my mains will be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif It will still be one heck of an HT. Are you now interested in the Sony VW1000ES we talked about?

Could be...I have to see how the expense factor works out with the house from here to the end. Once I'm finished there, I can make that call. I still need that oppo, screen and processor from you for sure though biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

That's great Chop...but don't do it because of peer pressure. Do it because you want to do it. It will still require some effort.

Dual TD15M with SEOS-24 is exceptionally capable. Think about how most medium sized commercial theaters use something like a JBL 4722 which has 2 15" woofers and a single coax on a large horn. Now upgrade the woofers and use a better compression driver...and put them in a room about 1/5th to 1/10th as big. Oh and use a better horn (just my opinion) and a more refined crossover. Honestly, I'm not sure there would be an audible advantage going to 4 of the TD15's. It is way past the point of diminishing returns. This isn't like adding subwoofers to dig deeper. Dual TD15Ms is probably lower in harmonic distortion than your electronic signal chain...or close enough.

My personal opinion is that people get way too picky about surrounds. I generally just want good coverage along with enough capability to not sound strained. Even having different compression drivers, especially if tuned to a similar target, has little actual effect. Very few top top top end multi-channel mastering studios would use surrounds as capable as you originally proposed. Even your SEOS15 surrounds are more capable than most surround mastering setups I've seen.

A SEOS-15 (with 4550 or 360) and a TD15M per surround is more capable than 99.999% of HT mains. The SEOS-24 with dual TD15M's won't even be a huge step up (although I do think there are advantages to the point source playing down to ~500-700hz).

One other thing. The DCX with EP amps is a great place to start. If, down the road, you want to upgrade you could buy an RS20 and whatever uber amps you want to try. The RS20 is capable of handling the crossovers in your mains. If you want the best, that is the way to go. I frankly don't see much advantage over the DCX or MiniDSP until you get to that level. Most other DSP xovers are just better for pro use and won't show much to the home user. Your original proposal included about $10k worth of highend pro amps along with a few $K of DSP. I'd rather buy $1k worth of Behringer amps and a $10k RS20 processor to be honest. The DCX will definitely hold you over (major understatement...there are lots of crazy audiophiles who swear by the DCX and you can even mod it if you feel it is needed).

I am def doing it cause I want to, I just acted so quickly based on excitement and pushing into the Uber build and I realized it was way more than I needed. Once I thought I'd sell, and I had a few people make me realize that I can still do a great build and it didn't have to be all or nothing, I got back in. You are 100% correct though, it will take effort and $$ so no one should let anyone else push them into something like this.

Matt and I chatted a bit about the surrounds, and I'm not even sure if we will use the seos15 or 12 in them. We will be using the 360CD though, that's for sure. I'm sure we can get them voiced close enough that they will sound great with the mains.

We are going to try to have a full passive set up for ease of use and I will grab a dcx for sure to play with them active. The $$ savings is incredible. I got caught up in conversations with a few that the only way for it to be the best it can be was to use these other amps/dsp. Nobodys fault but my own, I'm not sure why I though it couldn't work with more budget friendly components.


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post #650 of 1518 Old 05-30-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My surrounds are going to be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif Heck my mains will be jealous of your surrounds. smile.gif It will still be one heck of an HT. Are you now interested in the Sony VW1000ES we talked about?

Could be...I have to see how the expense factor works out with the house from here to the end. Once I'm finished there, I can make that call. I still need that oppo, screen and processor from you for sure though biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

That's great Chop...but don't do it because of peer pressure. Do it because you want to do it. It will still require some effort.

Dual TD15M with SEOS-24 is exceptionally capable. Think about how most medium sized commercial theaters use something like a JBL 4722 which has 2 15" woofers and a single coax on a large horn. Now upgrade the woofers and use a better compression driver...and put them in a room about 1/5th to 1/10th as big. Oh and use a better horn (just my opinion) and a more refined crossover. Honestly, I'm not sure there would be an audible advantage going to 4 of the TD15's. It is way past the point of diminishing returns. This isn't like adding subwoofers to dig deeper. Dual TD15Ms is probably lower in harmonic distortion than your electronic signal chain...or close enough.

My personal opinion is that people get way too picky about surrounds. I generally just want good coverage along with enough capability to not sound strained. Even having different compression drivers, especially if tuned to a similar target, has little actual effect. Very few top top top end multi-channel mastering studios would use surrounds as capable as you originally proposed. Even your SEOS15 surrounds are more capable than most surround mastering setups I've seen.

A SEOS-15 (with 4550 or 360) and a TD15M per surround is more capable than 99.999% of HT mains. The SEOS-24 with dual TD15M's won't even be a huge step up (although I do think there are advantages to the point source playing down to ~500-700hz).

One other thing. The DCX with EP amps is a great place to start. If, down the road, you want to upgrade you could buy an RS20 and whatever uber amps you want to try. The RS20 is capable of handling the crossovers in your mains. If you want the best, that is the way to go. I frankly don't see much advantage over the DCX or MiniDSP until you get to that level. Most other DSP xovers are just better for pro use and won't show much to the home user. Your original proposal included about $10k worth of highend pro amps along with a few $K of DSP. I'd rather buy $1k worth of Behringer amps and a $10k RS20 processor to be honest. The DCX will definitely hold you over (major understatement...there are lots of crazy audiophiles who swear by the DCX and you can even mod it if you feel it is needed).

I am def doing it cause I want to, I just acted so quickly based on excitement and pushing into the Uber build and I realized it was way more than I needed. Once I thought I'd sell, and I had a few people make me realize that I can still do a great build and it didn't have to be all or nothing, I got back in. You are 100% correct though, it will take effort and $$ so no one should let anyone else push them into something like this.

Matt and I chatted a bit about the surrounds, and I'm not even sure if we will use the seos15 or 12 in them. We will be using the 360CD though, that's for sure. I'm sure we can get them voiced close enough that they will sound great with the mains.

We are going to try to have a full passive set up for ease of use and I will grab a dcx for sure to play with them active. The $$ savings is incredible. I got caught up in conversations with a few that the only way for it to be the best it can be was to use these other amps/dsp. Nobodys fault but my own, I'm not sure why I though it couldn't work with more budget friendly components.


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post #651 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 09:34 AM
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Coctostan, how do you think dual TD15x will work with seos 24 (in the proposed set up) in place of TD15ms?

Definitely. You will lose some sensitivity but you should be able to run them basically full range depending on tune. The TD15X's will work best when using the SEOS-24 and BMS Coax is run down to around 500hz. The only caveat is that I haven't seen this tested. I haven't measured the SEOS-24 and BMS coax myself so I can't say with certainty that it will play that low.
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Could be...I have to see how the expense factor works out with the house from here to the end. Once I'm finished there, I can make that call. I still need that oppo, screen and processor from you for sure though biggrin.gif
I am def doing it cause I want to, I just acted so quickly based on excitement and pushing into the Uber build and I realized it was way more than I needed. Once I thought I'd sell, and I had a few people make me realize that I can still do a great build and it didn't have to be all or nothing, I got back in. You are 100% correct though, it will take effort and $$ so no one should let anyone else push them into something like this.

Matt and I chatted a bit about the surrounds, and I'm not even sure if we will use the seos15 or 12 in them. We will be using the 360CD though, that's for sure. I'm sure we can get them voiced close enough that they will sound great with the mains.

We are going to try to have a full passive set up for ease of use and I will grab a dcx for sure to play with them active. The $$ savings is incredible. I got caught up in conversations with a few that the only way for it to be the best it can be was to use these other amps/dsp. Nobodys fault but my own, I'm not sure why I though it couldn't work with more budget friendly components.

That's cool. I was just making sure I wasn't pushing you into it. I just wanted to offer another route.

There are tons of other good options for surrounds. Everything from the EOS8 based builds to something with a SEOS-15. The smaller DNA CDs would work well too.

IMO, there are advantages to going hybrid active DSP with something like the SEOS-24 and dual TD15Ms. A 500hz crossover is going to be pretty expensive to start. Second, it is a bit tougher to dial in a passive in that range. Third, you can tweak slightly to your taste for things like house curve and integration of mains to subs. Of course there is nothing wrong with full passive. It works well for speakers like the JBL Everest and K2. In a way this is going to be very similar to a K2. Not a bad speaker to loosely clone. You could even run them off a receiver (not ideal) until you get the cash flow for external amps. It is definitely a good platform to build upon. You don't have to go uber from the start (although that is pretty relative...these will be damn uber by most sane people's criteria).
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post #652 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 09:40 AM
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Matt and I chatted a bit about the surrounds, and I'm not even sure if we will use the seos15 or 12 in them. We will be using the 360CD though, that's for sure. I'm sure we can get them voiced close enough that they will sound great with the mains.

You want to do a TD10 with SEOS12 for the surrounds. *hint hint *. biggrin.gif

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post #653 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Definitely. You will lose some sensitivity but you should be able to run them basically full range depending on tune. The TD15X's will work best when using the SEOS-24 and BMS Coax is run down to around 500hz. The only caveat is that I haven't seen this tested. I haven't measured the SEOS-24 and BMS coax myself so I can't say with certainty that it will play that low.
That's cool. I was just making sure I wasn't pushing you into it. I just wanted to offer another route.

There are tons of other good options for surrounds. Everything from the EOS8 based builds to something with a SEOS-15. The smaller DNA CDs would work well too.

IMO, there are advantages to going hybrid active DSP with something like the SEOS-24 and dual TD15Ms. A 500hz crossover is going to be pretty expensive to start. Second, it is a bit tougher to dial in a passive in that range. Third, you can tweak slightly to your taste for things like house curve and integration of mains to subs. Of course there is nothing wrong with full passive. It works well for speakers like the JBL Everest and K2. In a way this is going to be very similar to a K2. Not a bad speaker to loosely clone. You could even run them off a receiver (not ideal) until you get the cash flow for external amps. It is definitely a good platform to build upon. You don't have to go uber from the start (although that is pretty relative...these will be damn uber by most sane people's criteria).

Absolutely. I agree, and more than likely we will be hybrid going active to the woofs, but felt that the small (relatively of course) investment into a full passive would give some other folks the option to straight up copy it if they wanted. For me, $2k in EP4Ks, a DCX and few hundo in passive components for the CD xover will give us most of the active benefits without all the cost of the original plan, and like you said, it leaves the ability to t"tune to taste". Heck, I could even go on from there to mess with active CD xovers too.

The surrounds seem to make sense to go passive on.

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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

You want to do a TD10 with SEOS12 for the surrounds. *hint hint *. biggrin.gif

If I didn't have a room full of 15s I would! biggrin.gif


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post #654 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

You want to do a TD10 with SEOS12 for the surrounds. *hint hint *. biggrin.gif

I saw Erich mention he might plasticize the SEOS 10 making it about a $30 component. I've got some experience with the SEOS 10 and I think that it would make a great match to the td10. Not that the SEOS 12 wouldn't, but for surrounds it could save you some space.
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post #655 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 02:41 PM
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I echo the sentiment regarding the surrounds.

I've discovered that even matched with the very capable Seaton Cat12Cs, very modest surrounds work just fine in my room,... even with aggressive surround material. Now that said, I have eventually settled for something more capable too (QSC K8), but I used and even went back and experimented with these tiny Klipsch 5" two-ways (RB15, I think). In my 25x13x8 room, they kept up admirably.

I realize Chop's HT is sizable, but often I find way, way too much undue emphasis is placed upon surround's SPL capability.

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #656 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I saw Erich mention he might plasticize the SEOS 10 making it about a $30 component. I've got some experience with the SEOS 10 and I think that it would make a great match to the td10. Not that the SEOS 12 wouldn't, but for surrounds it could save you some space.

They'd be cheaper than that. I think under $25 if I recall.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #657 of 1518 Old 05-31-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I know the surrounds with the TD15 and SEOS12 will be overkill, but I already have the 15s and it's easier to use them than to try to sell em' and start over.


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post #658 of 1518 Old 06-01-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Absolutely. I agree, and more than likely we will be hybrid going active to the woofs, but felt that the small (relatively of course) investment into a full passive would give some other folks the option to straight up copy it if they wanted. For me, $2k in EP4Ks, a DCX and few hundo in passive components for the CD xover will give us most of the active benefits without all the cost of the original plan, and like you said, it leaves the ability to t"tune to taste". Heck, I could even go on from there to mess with active CD xovers too.

The surrounds seem to make sense to go passive on.
If I didn't have a room full of 15s I would! biggrin.gif

Chop, how did you figure coming out with $2,000.00 in EP4k's and a DCX? Were you going to use one EP4k per channel in your mains? If so, that would be awesome!
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post #659 of 1518 Old 06-01-2013, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Chop, how did you figure coming out with $2,000.00 in EP4k's and a DCX? Were you going to use one EP4k per channel in your mains? If so, that would be awesome!

Yes sir. On the passive version one ep per main, on the active version, one and a half..one for the woofer section and another for the CD. I figure I'll start with six of them for $1800 or so and the DCX another $300+, maybe less if I can find a used one. Full passive on the surrounds will mean I can use one EP per pair which helps. It will be a good start and then I can grab one or two more if teh final product is the hybrid active and I need the extra channels.


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post #660 of 1518 Old 06-01-2013, 08:38 AM
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Looks like EP4k has a decent price today. Here


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