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post #811 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, amp/dsp time. Matt and I have been discussing these details and have come up with the following parameters:

Amps: woofer section...1000w at 2ohms or anywhere between 800 and 1000w at 8ohm
coax: anywhere between 250 and 400w at 8ohm
surrounds: 400-600w at 4ohm

DSP:Must have at least six bands of PEQ, ability for delay to run multiple sets of side surrounds.

We have looked at a number of amps and dsp/amp combos...the contenders are

LG ipd series with built in dsp
EP4ks all around with external dsp
Crown XLS dcore with external dsp
Emo amps with external dsp
w4s amps with external dsp
Crown DSI with built in dsp
QSC with external dsp (the cxd series look fantastic, but only have 5 bands of peq..doh)

For dsp choices, I'm still lost. The mini would be the easiest due to just plugging in the active xover details from Matt, however manually setting them in another unit isn't that big a deal. I am concerned with reports of noise throught he minidsp though, as well as the old thread which referred to boosting needed when running high power pro amps.

I have looked at DCX, again some folks like it and some folks don't. BSS London units (more money, but supposedly worth every penny)

The other option I have looked at is something like the Datasat pre or the ADA with Trinnov added and using them as my active xover as well. If this is done, I could take funds that would have been spent on the more expensive amp options and reallocate them to the pre/pro. Still a big money venture and cost double what the 8801/ LG or Crown dsi combo would. I am also open to suggestions that any of you may have for amps or dsp experience.
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post #812 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 09:04 AM
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You should spend some time looking at the Hypex page smile.gif
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post #813 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 09:49 AM
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"Ok, amp/dsp time."

if it does what you need, the dcx 2496 is proven. it has software which makes inputting filters fairly easy.

i don't see the case for anything more than a stack of xls2500 amplifiers.

the crown tested just fine:
http://www.prosoundnetwork.com/article/crown-xls-2500-and-peavey-ipr-1600/11870#

full range, quiet, powerful, low distortion...what's not to like?

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post #814 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Ok, amp/dsp time."

if it does what you need, the dcx 2496 is proven. it has software which makes inputting filters fairly easy.

i don't see the case for anything more than a stack of xls2500 amplifiers.

the crown tested just fine:
http://www.prosoundnetwork.com/article/crown-xls-2500-and-peavey-ipr-1600/11870#

full range, quiet, powerful, low distortion...what's not to like?

The crowns should work out fine..as well as the dcx. I just wasn't sure if there was something better dsp wise. I am not the guy who is willing to triple the budget for a single digit % gain in performance, however, I would for a significant gain.

My only concern with the Xls and the ep4k was noise floor, I just wanted to make sure I have "black backround" and don't instigate any avoidable hiss. My only reason for looking at the others like LG, w4s and even emo, was more or less that part of the brain that says, "6 ep4ks are only $1800, how could the system sound good with them??" We all know how far that type of thinking gets you though, hence the post and questions. As you say LTD, why spend more if it won't yield a difference. I am just a double and triple check sort of guy, so I want to be sure I'm not missing anything before I pull the trigger on a half dozen of anything smile.gif
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post #815 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 10:31 AM
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+1 on the crown XLS. Jake you are more than welcome to come listen to my XLS2000's on the yorkvilles at my place anytime. Hiss/noise level is super low and they don't require fan mods should the amps be in the room. Even at STUPID levels the signal lights are barely flashing the first/second lights. I'd be surprised if I used half of their available power even during serious crank sessions.

Also - for what it's worth I really like the user interface on my mini 10x10.
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post #816 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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That sounds great Andrew, thanks! Maybe I will just take a ride down with a pair of SEOSRs' in my car biggrin.gif

Thanks for the link as well LTD, nice little read on their performance.
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post #817 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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So here is the other question with regard to Crown....I can get 2 DSi 2000 and 6 DSi 1000 for basically the same price as is normal for the XLS combo needed. Of course that means I can get the XLS for less too, but all in all, it's about a $1000 difference between the XLS combo with DCX and the DSI amps with built in dsp. Wouldn't one think that the Dsi is the better choice purely from and ease of use/connectivity, supply chain perspective? I could be wrong, just thinking out loud....one of you might enlighten me that the DSi dsp isn't as capable, who knows.
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post #818 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, that just got really easy. I just picked up 6 of the DSi 1000 and 2 of the DSi2000. Each woofer section in the l/c/r will see an 8ohm bridged dsi1k and 1000w, another dsi1k for each pair of surrounds (6 surrounds total) putting 475w to each speaker at 4ohms and each coax will get 475w @8ohm from the pair of dsi2k. I would never have pulled the trigger so fast, but I paid as much for this entire package as it would have cost me for the 6 EP4ks and the DCX or mini!!

I did spend a while onthe phone with a really helpfull techguy at Crown first. Basically the DSi will do everything and more than the min or dcx, and it's all in one box.
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post #819 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 07:35 PM
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"Well, that just got really easy."

i haven't used hiqnet, but from some of the screenshots that I've seen, it looks pretty straightforward and the dsp section appears to have/do everything that you require.



sounds like you got a great deal too, so...bravo!

....


"I did spend a while onthe phone with a really helpfull techguy at Crown first."

no chance you asked him what is up with the phoenix connectors? :-)

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post #820 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 07:41 PM
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Doesn't have many XO options and only two of the LR filters. The rest looks good though. What's the delay increments. 50msecs is a long delay. You really only need about 5msecs to do everything.
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post #821 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Doesn't have many XO options and only two of the LR filters. The rest looks good though. What's the delay increments. 50msecs is a long delay. You really only need about 5msecs to do everything.

1ms increments I'm told by Crown tech. All the preset JBL dsp settings can be overridden as well.

LTD, I did ask about the phoenix, he kind of just chuckled
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post #822 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 07:57 PM
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Hmm for a speaker you might want 0.1msecs. Matt can probably work around all this though.
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post #823 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:00 PM
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"LTD, I did ask about the phoenix, he kind of just chuckled..." LOL!

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post #824 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:05 PM
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"Hmm for a speaker you might want 0.1msecs. Matt can probably work around all this though."

stop scaring him. :-) looks like x.x is a minimum and resolution may be to four decimal places.


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post #825 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:10 PM
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another screen shot of the software. looks like resolution on delay / distance is very high resolution (micro second resolution and mm distance :-0 ). no worries there.


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post #826 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Hmm for a speaker you might want 0.1msecs. Matt can probably work around all this though."

stop scaring him. :-) looks like x.x is a minimum and resolution may be to four decimal places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Hmm for a speaker you might want 0.1msecs. Matt can probably work around all this though.

Hahahah...thanks guys. I think I am on overload and gave tux the wrong info. I have been racking my brain all day and when this deal came up I had to pounce on it or lose out. I would normally never jump that quickly. Matt seemed comfortable with them too.
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post #827 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:16 PM
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here is a powerpoint overview if you want to flip through just for fun before you get the software all set up.

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/amp_htm/ppt/DSi.pps#421,1,Slide 1

nice is all i can say...

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post #828 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here is a powerpoint overview if you want to flip through just for fun before you get the software all set up.

http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/amp_htm/ppt/DSi.pps#421,1,Slide 1

nice is all i can say...

Sweet, thanks LTD!

I feel like I am trying to learn so much, so fast today....every post has helped! I am still getting the understanding of the details down. I'm gonna have to go to best buy and talk to someone in their HT department tomorrow so I can feel smart again biggrin.gif
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post #829 of 1514 Old 09-12-2013, 10:08 PM
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that link seems screwed up. http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/amp_htm/ppt/DSi.pps

somewhere around slide 80 are the neat screen shots of the software

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post #830 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 06:35 AM
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Sorry, not trying to scare him. I didnt realize at first that he had bought them. I doubt the delay resolution is 4 sig figs. But maybe. I've just found the built in dsp of most pro amps are for XOs of pro subs and often lack some of the features we like in speaker design.

I'm sure it'll be fine. I just wanted to be straight with you.
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post #831 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Sorry, not trying to scare him. I didnt realize at first that he had bought them. I doubt the delay resolution is 4 sig figs. But maybe. I've just found the built in dsp of most pro amps are for XOs of pro subs and often lack some of the features we like in speaker design.

I'm sure it'll be fine. I just wanted to be straight with you.

No apology needed tux, I appreciate the insight. I think after talking with Matt and really spending sometime on the manual last night, etc. these will work out pretty nice. The reality is, for the price I paid, if I have to sell them and get something else, I'd probably make money biggrin.gif
I think they'll be fine though, the lr filter is really the only limiting factor at this point, and I'm not even sure it will effect us. I am also chatting with Matt about the idea of going full active on the cds now too. Not sure if it will end up being that way, but for what I have, I could do it power wise, plus I can buy a few more of the amps for very little money if need be.

Here is my thought on full active....I have already talked to my buddy and I can give back the two dsi2000 and get three dsi1000....this would allow me independant power and dsp/xover ability on every speaker section...hf and mf independantly on coax, woofer section, and then passive of course on surrounds. Thoughts?? Any reason to do passive CD's over active?
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post #832 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 07:16 AM
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Thoughts?? Any reason to do passive CD's over active?

I'm not sure you'd gain anything. And passive is way simpler and cheaper. At those high frequencies, there no insertion loss to be concerned with. No expensive components. No extra power requirements. I just don't see the need. But it's also not a down grade going active.
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"...the lr filter is really the only limiting factor at this point..."

what is the limitation, just out of curiosity?

...

passive from mid to top is fine. given the work is already done and appears to be good, i'd stick with that.

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post #834 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I'm not sure you'd gain anything. And passive is way simpler and cheaper. At those high frequencies, there no insertion loss to be concerned with. No expensive components. No extra power requirements. I just don't see the need. But it's also not a down grade going active.

That's pretty much the conversation that Matt and I just had. I was just thinking that active is an advantage over passive in general and hadn't even thought about the fact it wouldn't mean any more power, and the adjustments being made throught the xover and peq won't change and don't need to be any broader, so really it woult serve now purpose. The active wouldnt' be a down grade, but with the way the output at a given imp is on the dsi, the passive actually allows me to get a more optimum power level to the CD rather than trying to split them individually.

Also, haven't talked with Matt about this yet, but what are the thoughts, since the amps for surrounds have the capability, of going active on the TD15M/dna360 combo in the surrounds? Othere than the fact that I need double the channels and would have way more power than they need biggrin.gif
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post #835 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"...the lr filter is really the only limiting factor at this point..."

what is the limitation, just out of curiosity?

...

passive from mid to top is fine. given the work is already done and appears to be good, i'd stick with that.

I guess from our perspective and for our use, it isn't...just that there only two filters, as tux said
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post #836 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 10:44 AM
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quick question tux. wouldn't a second order butterworth with a parametric eq on the corner of q=0.707, gain= -3db give a 2nd order linkwitz riley?

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post #837 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 11:02 AM
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You're right that you can spank any slope into shape using PEQ, but then you suck up PEQ slots. And (this is an area I'm really unsure about) the dsp processor doesn't have to work as hard with a simple preset slope. That may not be true or matter at all, but I've heard it come up before.

Compare to a minidsp with the advanced plug in where you have every slope available, AND you can over lay them with biquads. Yes, that's normally way more than a person needs, and the only simulation software I'm aware of that takes advantage of it is ACD (active cross over design) by our good friend Charlie over on PETT. I think soundeasy does it now too, which I'd love to get. ACD is a little bit awkward to use, and considering I've never actually had a need to use biquads, I haven't fully used it.

Don't forget, once this speaker is in the room, Chop may well want another 3 4 8? more PEQ slots. Thankfully it has 6 on the input side which can probably handle that with ease.
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post #838 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 11:11 AM
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My design uses butterworth filters on both the woofer and coax, so no problems there.

Wouldn't the surround processor be able to handle much of the in room EQ too?
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post #839 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
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My design uses butterworth filters on both the woofer and coax, so no problems there.

Well there you go. No problem.
Quote:
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Wouldn't the surround processor be able to handle much of the in room EQ too?

Sure probably. But at this caliber of project, I'd want the control. I wouldn't trust the processor. Who knows though, I sure haven't used a processor at this level. Maybe they're good enough to do the job right. But I doubt it can measure every seat and decide which are the most important, which measure weird but just don't worry about it, which frequencies shouldn't be boosted because it'll strain the CD, etc.

You should post the XO Matt. I'd love to see what kind of work the SEOS24 takes. Have you posted raw driver measurements? Those would be interesting too.
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post #840 of 1514 Old 09-13-2013, 11:35 AM
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Another tool for the chest is JRiver. As a player, it can do very precise PEQ. AFIK, there is no limit on the number of filters. I now use JR for SD & HD music, movies...everything.

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