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post #991 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

no problem. i never truly understood the 0.5 woofer concept until i saw the everest graphic either, so we must both be "visual learners" whatever the heck that means. :-)

But rolling off the second woofer early wastes the matched directivity between two woofers and the very wide horn.

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post #992 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

as if 134db is not sufficient, the excursion limited spl occurs around 65-70hz in this example.

if the mains are crossed over to the subs at 65-70hz, then the mains will be down -6db at the cross over point. or put another way, headroom goes up by another 6db because excursion demands on the mains will be reduced by crossing over to the subs, which is the whole point of crossing over to subs.

assuming the 16+ subs can keep up, and they probably can, back-of-the-envelope is another +6db for a total of 140db or so. that would seem to be "loud enough" as that is "per speaker" and there are 3 of these mega mains.
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Dual Everest sounds like Scott's quad JBL mains. Also reminds me of the closest thing to the SH96 outside of a SH. Either way this sounds awesome.

Yup. Sounds familiar. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

and if it makes you feel any better, the jbl everest goes for about $60,000 per pair. you would have essentially a dual everest or about $60,000 per speaker for a front of house equivalent of $180,000. :-)


Heheh. Looks familiar. wink.gif



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post #993 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 11:42 AM
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sometimes an example can help. this is the jbl everest. it uses a 0.5 woofer configuration with the second woofer rolling in to assist with the bass as is being contemplated in one version of this build.





the black line is the frequency response of the total system and the colored lines are for each driver.

what can be seen here is how the second woofer "rolls in". it has something like a second order low pass filter around 100 hz.

in the region where both of the woofers are playing together, the overall frequency response get about a +6db increase. in this case that occurs from about 80 hz down. above that point, the second woofer gently rolls out and only one woofer is playing through the lower midrange.

in the case of the seosr, LF1 = TD18, and LF2 = TD15M. the problem is that lf1 and lf2 are both playing the same spl in the 80hz region +/-. that is fine at lower volume. however, as the volume gets turned up, the td15m will run out excursion before the td18, so in some sense, there would be no point to using a td18 and a simple second td15m would suffice.

i was curious if somebody had thought of a way to create a smooth integration of the two woofers, but put a disproportionate weight on the td18 because it is the more capable driver in the mid bass region.

Are those the natural rolloffs of the JBL's down low or is that a dual highpass set on each of the drivers for protection?

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post #994 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 01:36 PM
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I was wondering the same thing Beast. I thought the everest was supposed to play well below 40hz. That looks like it would require subs even for music.
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post #995 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

^^ to the extent that spectral content tends to increase as frequency goes down and to the extent that most systems will be eq'd to have a slightly rising lower end response, i think so. in anything approaching a home theater the 4594/seos24 combo will be defeaning, literally, so it will not be limiting in any way.

edit: it looks like the mid/top can handle 150 watts above 400hz and it is about 118db 1w1m sensitive, so it should be up in the max output ballpark of 140db itself and you would never play midrange that loud.


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IMO, more testing is required to set a crossover frequency, my bet it would be at least 500hz if that kind of SPL capability is required.

q4R2OdU.jpg

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post #996 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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Perhaps some one could explain the mid-woofer to waveguide directivity matching in the Everest design. Just looking at it, I would expect both woofers to operate in parallel up to the crossover to the CD. Usually a .5 woofer is separated vertically and comes in at a lower frequency to avoid increasing the effective center to center spacing. I would think in Chop's design you would also want two of the TD15M side by side for directivity matching.

Thinking of the room, I would expect either flanking subs overlapping those TD15s up to 150 hz or so or a 18" subwoofer below the mids doing the same thing, If you do have this overlap, then excursion limited SPL picture for the low midrange changes quite a bit, doesn't it?
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post #997 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

IMO, more testing is required to set a crossover frequency, my bet it would be at least 500hz if that kind of SPL capability is required.

q4R2OdU.jpg

As of right now, it's at 450...not saying it couldn't change, but so far that's sounding right from what Matt says (I haven't gotten to listen yet) If the midrange section of the coax can handle it, it sure would be nice to keep it down there.


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post #998 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 04:33 PM
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"So this is basically the Noesis CD with a seos waveguide and better and bigger drivers?"

as mentioned, yes. remember the noesis is a pro audio mid/top as its primary design, so it had to be built as small and movable as possible. this is the exact opposite, it isn't going anywhere. :-)

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post #999 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 04:45 PM
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"But rolling off the second woofer early wastes the matched directivity between two woofers and the very wide horn."

that is true and with such a low crossover point, it may work just fine running all 15's together instead of a 0.5 design. my note was not to say which one would be better, but to explain the concept of using a second woofer to increase mid-bass headroom while maintaining the original frequency response of a single driver (or vertical oriented pair).

a single driver which radiates more or less omni at the drossover region will benefit if the cabs are built into the front corners of the theater. essentially the front and side walls will serve as a giant 90 degree horn, so directionality is constrained in the main left / right channel anyway.

then there is the center channel. i don't recall seeing an off axis measurement of the seos 24, but it is probably starting to lose pattern control and becoming more wider in pattern by 450hz anyway. since it is the center channel it may be better if there is a slight mismatch to be a little wider in pattern than a little more narrow, but that's is likely another minor point.

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post #1000 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"So this is basically the Noesis CD with a seos waveguide and better and bigger drivers?"

as mentioned, yes. remember the noesis is a pro audio mid/top as its primary design, so it had to be built as small and movable as possible. this is the exact opposite, it isn't going anywhere. :-)

No no, they aren't going anywhere...not until they get pried out of my cold dead hands biggrin.gif


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post #1001 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 05:18 PM
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"Are those the natural rolloffs of the JBL's down low or is that a dual highpass set on each of the drivers for protection?"

i don't know. the woofer used in the everest, particularly in a ported design (which it is) wouldn't rolloff that early. so my guess would be that they are running something like a first order high pass on both woofers, then employing the more traditional 0.5 combination to increase and extend the bass response.

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post #1002 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 06:58 PM
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here is a quick back-of-the-envelope for what a pair of 1500AL Everest drivers would look like run with a first order high pass in a ported cab about the size of the Everest in a 0.5 configuration with the bottom driver rolled in with a second order low pass vs. a single driver with no filtering. not exact of course, but close enough to suspect that is one way that it could be done. one thing about passive 0.5 though is a large inductor on the 0.5 woofer is required. that is bad for bass control. the guy who designed the Everest, or one ot them, indicated the Everest sounded much better in active mode where that inductor could be bypassed.


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post #1003 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

No no, they aren't going anywhere...not until they get pried out of my cold dead hands biggrin.gif

I can't imagine you ever wanting to upgrade from these. I'm probably going to build something near identical for LCR.

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post #1004 of 1517 Old 09-26-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't imagine you ever wanting to upgrade from these. I'm probably going to build something near identical for LCR.

I can't either when I think half way logically biggrin.gif

I kept getting carried away about the quad drivers, but in reality the dual 15 model run active is probably something of a heavyweight champ. I can't imagine how much it would take commercially to match these things at their full potential. Still, I will probably experiment with more once I have everything lined up in the HT...if for nothing else, to try my hand at some advanced design and learn some more.


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post #1005 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 08:01 AM
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Great progress Chop. I'd love to hear these some day.

I'm glad you are continuing with the project. It wasn't long ago that you almost gave up on the project. Now you want to add cost and complexity for what would be a tiny gain. I have to admit I would be tempted to do something similar but I'm going to advise you to just get the dual 15" version done. I know it isn't as wild, but honestly you are talking about covering a very small passband with those TD18's. You already have significant headroom with the dual 15s. There becomes a point of quickly diminishing return on headroom and in my experience the point is right here.

Then you run into the issues with trying to make the drivers place nicely with each other in a pretty small range of ~500hz and below. Either you get the messiness of a .5 way where you don't really need it or you use the TD18s from about 30-200hz and td15's from 200-500hz. I just don't see much benefit.

Beyond that, you can always add later. I don't think you will care to once you hear what this can do, but I don't see any reason to slow things down now.

As cool as the Everest is, I wouldn't use it as a design benchmark. First, it has to cater to the uber highend hifi market which makes unusual (and detrimental) demands. Things like extension beyond 20khz and below 40-50hz just don't make sense from a pure performance perspective. The extension beyond 20khz is there to satisfy the people who enjoy the spec sheet more than the speaker itself. The low extension caters to the people who still refuse to use a separate subwoofer as dumb as that is. If you took away those two requirements I think they would design a very different uber-speaker. In fact, I think it would be closer to what Chop is doing now.
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post #1006 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 08:36 AM
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i agree. i just used Everest as a model to explain concepts that we were discussing and i mentioned that, but sometimes things get missed.

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post #1007 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 10:30 AM
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MIssed that LTD. I wasn't suggesting that you were off base. I just wanted to make sure the Everest wasn't taken as gospel. Yes, it is a good example of how to integrate the TD18's but I still don't see the point of the additional woofers.
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post #1008 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Great progress Chop. I'd love to hear these some day.

I'm glad you are continuing with the project. It wasn't long ago that you almost gave up on the project. Now you want to add cost and complexity for what would be a tiny gain. I have to admit I would be tempted to do something similar but I'm going to advise you to just get the dual 15" version done. I know it isn't as wild, but honestly you are talking about covering a very small passband with those TD18's. You already have significant headroom with the dual 15s. There becomes a point of quickly diminishing return on headroom and in my experience the point is right here.

Then you run into the issues with trying to make the drivers place nicely with each other in a pretty small range of ~500hz and below. Either you get the messiness of a .5 way where you don't really need it or you use the TD18s from about 30-200hz and td15's from 200-500hz. I just don't see much benefit.

Beyond that, you can always add later. I don't think you will care to once you hear what this can do, but I don't see any reason to slow things down now.

As cool as the Everest is, I wouldn't use it as a design benchmark. First, it has to cater to the uber highend hifi market which makes unusual (and detrimental) demands. Things like extension beyond 20khz and below 40-50hz just don't make sense from a pure performance perspective. The extension beyond 20khz is there to satisfy the people who enjoy the spec sheet more than the speaker itself. The low extension caters to the people who still refuse to use a separate subwoofer as dumb as that is. If you took away those two requirements I think they would design a very different uber-speaker. In fact, I think it would be closer to what Chop is doing now.

Thanks, I'm glad too! I agree that at the moment, it's pretty silly to think of additional drivers. It will be wise to get these up and running, asses them and then decide if more is needed. It actually kind of helps that they will be hiden. If they were going to be visable, there would be absolutely no talking me out of the quad driver tower....it would just look too good biggrin.gif


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once you get a little back lighting on the speakers...you'll have no choice, so you might as well budget them in now! hehehe...


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post #1010 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

once you get a little back lighting on the speakers...you'll have no choice, so you might as well budget them in now! hehehe...


aahhhh, you guys are killing me...no backlighting, no backlighting biggrin.gif

I have been having conversations with John about grabbing more TD15M's, that way I can test the quads out and tinker with them, but if the beneift isn't worth the effort or cost, I can use the woofers in another set of side surrounds or height speakers. I doubt I'll ever be upset about having a few extra TD15's laying around the house smile.gif


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post #1011 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 12:54 PM
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I doubt I'll ever be upset about having a few extra TD15's laying around the house smile.gif

You say that now... Then one day the TD's sit you down while your having your morning Joe and tell you how they feel neglected these days and wish you would spend more time with them. They will tell you how they want to be useful in your life, but they need your help. Then after kindly asking, the threats begin, you all of a sudden can't sleep and the woofers are all you can ever think about...and how you could have been such a failure to them...And then next thing you know, you are blocking off an entire closet to make them feel special again...So they may have their own playspace...Wait, what were we talking about?

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post #1012 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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You say that now... Then one day the TD's sit you down while your having your morning Joe and tell you how they feel neglected these days and wish you would spend more time with them. They will tell you how they want to be useful in your life, but they need your help. Then after kindly asking, the threats begin, you all of a sudden can't sleep and the woofers are all you can ever think about...and how you could have been such a failure to them...And then next thing you know, you are blocking off an entire closet to make them feel special again...So they may have their own playspace...Wait, what were we talking about?

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I doubt I'll ever be upset about having a few extra TD15's laying around the house smile.gif

HA!

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You say that now... Then one day the TD's sit you down while your having your morning Joe and tell you how they feel neglected these days and wish you would spend more time with them. They will tell you how they want to be useful in your life, but they need your help. Then after kindly asking, the threats begin, you all of a sudden can't sleep and the woofers are all you can ever think about...and how you could have been such a failure to them...And then next thing you know, you are blocking off an entire closet to make them feel special again...So they may have their own playspace...Wait, what were we talking about?

This. x1000


You really don't know, Chop.


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Boss.


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post #1016 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you guys just see how far you can push someone to go, then when they do it you tell them they're nuts, then when they back off, you tease them with pictures like this tongue.gif


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post #1017 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 04:46 PM
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How else do you suppose we manipulate people, hmm?


Oh wait. I just said that out loud. redface.gif


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post #1018 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 04:47 PM
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I think you guys just see how far you can push someone to go, then when they do it you tell them they're nuts, then when they back off, you tease them with pictures like this tongue.gif

I think your right. And it's pretty damn good entertainment for the rest of us.
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post #1019 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


I am the guy on the left counting all the drivers. biggrin.gif
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post #1020 of 1517 Old 09-27-2013, 09:42 PM
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oh, i forgot to post the trailer link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFlIXwf9zk&list=PLCC8A800404E91936

:-)

Listen. It's All Good.
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